The Expertise stat has to go...

[ShwagATK]

I'm going to agree with the OP. I've gotta a 4 piece champ set and a few other misc items and I wholeheartedly agree with eliminating expertise.

 

Age of conan, I decided to level multiple characters to get a good feel for what I really wanted to play end game. By the time I got around to it I wasn't competitive as everyone was too far ahead and there was no way to catch up. I told them their ranking system was the reason I quit when I unsubbed.

 

In Aion, same thing happened. By the time I got to max level I was severely outgeared not leveling fast enough.

 

Rift, i pvp'd to 50 thinking I'd be ahead of the game not knowing how important the end game gear was, in hindsight I should have just ground to 50 and then pvp'd. I got top gear level in that game but my guild mates who were slower to level didn't care to claw their way through the misery to be competitive and tbh were more interested in this game coming out.

 

In this game, we've only got about 4 50's in a 35 to 40 person guild. The rest just don't have the time to get there quickly and even the ones there are running into being severly outgeared by those elitist guilds that are already into the next tier.

 

Take it out, make the pvp high end gear competitive with high end raid gear but proportoniate to the time vested to get it either way.

 

Let the players groups skill determine the winner, not who had the time to get the statted gear first. Remove it please.

 

 

this is also ridiculous. where as to some extent it makes sense but there is NO RATING AT THIS CURRENT TIME. people who destroyed their way to 50 and unlocked all the champ gear already put more time and effort into doing whatever it is they did. why shouldn't they be rewarded? theyre not getting anything special. omg, i lost a 15 minute huttball match im losing my gladiator title......ffs stop crying.

 

skill is one thing, and im all about skill. skill + gear > skill + no gear.

 

you can also say the same thing about a pve hero who got all their hard modes early with a group of 3 ppl who are 50. and did some raiding. its the same thing, just that pvper's got expertise and you got raiding stats. if you go to the battleground with the wrong gear and get wiped up by people with the right gear, looks like to me that your "skill" was in pve'ing. stop trying to take over both communities.

 

people also act like top end pve gear isn't viable for pvp. which is just short sighted. if your a glass cannon, position yourself as such and form a group to facilitate the situation. tired of this discussion already.

[Zatoni]

It sure is nice of them to put in a PvP only stat. It makes lots of sense that people who do more than one thing in the game with their endgame time are penalized in some way, especially since making PvP gear worse in PvE makes it clear that PvE is the right way to progress in the game. Don't want to step on the toes of the pure PvE progression people.

 

Similarly, it's brilliant of them to allow gear progression in Warzones in general. It's kind of like when you're watching sports - fixed teams, basically the same playing field with a tight head to head competition. It's really not enough to test them on who has more purely mechanical skill/talent, team strategy and coordination, and understanding of the nuances of the game to determine the winner; you want to also know who has spent more time and resources devoted to acquiring artificial performance enhancements.

 

But for some reason, my campaign to provide a reward bag full of steroids to the winning team in an NFL match hasn't been welcomed with open arms. Still trying to figure that one out.

[pewpewlazorz]

I don't have the time in RL to devote to hardcore PvE in this game, so at 50 I am primarily a PvP player. There is nothing more insulting to a playerbase than to have TWO distinct groups (PvE and PvP players) dominated by ONE group (PvE players with the best raid gear). Expertise ensures that we all can have a sliver of the game to call our own.

[Rogalpwnzor]

But for some reason, my campaign to provide a reward bag full of steroids to the winning team in an NFL match hasn't been welcomed with open arms. Still trying to figure that one out.

But for some reason you'd let one team bring baseball bats to a football (soccer for you Yanks) match, only because they have been playing baseball for years.

[ShwagATK]

It sure is nice of them to put in a PvP only stat. It makes lots of sense that people who do more than one thing in the game with their endgame time are penalized in some way, especially since making PvP gear worse in PvE makes it clear that PvE is the right way to progress in the game. Don't want to step on the toes of the pure PvE progression people.

 

Similarly, it's brilliant of them to allow gear progression in Warzones in general. It's kind of like when you're watching sports - fixed teams, basically the same playing field with a tight head to head competition. It's really not enough to test them on who has more purely mechanical skill/talent, team strategy and coordination, and understanding of the nuances of the game to determine the winner; you want to also know who has spent more time and resources devoted to acquiring artificial performance enhancements.

 

But for some reason, my campaign to provide a reward bag full of steroids to the winning team in an NFL match hasn't been welcomed with open arms. Still trying to figure that one out.

 

i think you're forgetting to provide a steroid bag to the losing team as well. last time i checked, losing still rewards you with exp/valor/commendation. and the part where even the laziest of top tier Raiders have access to top tier pvp gear....where it is NOT so true visa versa...blows my mind that ppl are QQing so much about it. you can still use coordination and strategy whatever the situation is at any point in time, <50 or w/o pvp gear. soooo....

 

 

 

wat?

[Zatoni]

But for some reason you'd let one team bring baseball bats to a football (soccer for you Yanks) match, only because they have been playing baseball for years.

 

Well, not really. If we're mixing metaphors here, I'd rather them both go play Pankration.

[Rogalpwnzor]

Well, not really. If we're mixing metaphors here, I'd rather them both go play Pankration.

Ok, let's remove gear and stat adjustment altogether!

[Zatoni]

Ok, let's remove gear and stat adjustment altogether!

 

Now you're getting it.

 

 

i think you're forgetting to provide a steroid bag to the losing team as well. last time i checked, losing still rewards you with exp/valor/commendation.

 

Of course! Thank you, I will get my updated letter to the NFL Commissioner ASAP, thank you for your wise words. Truly they are a beacon in the dark. If both teams get steroids, then the team that loses has nothing to complain about! Finally we can get some artificial boosters widespread throughout the game. Their lack has really been holding the competitive nature of the game back for years. Problem: solved.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Zatoni
added another response

[Vesad]

So, when Raiders come in and say...

 

-dish out 100k crits 30% of the time (heal or damage)

-tank you entire team through parries/deflects/dodges

 

we, players that either:

 

a) don't want to raid

b) can't get top-end gear (say like a small guild)

 

Dead serious, what are they suppose to do? Just have fun being farmed at the spawn point?

 

And don't act dumb people, everyone knows for a fact that people will take advantage of any system.

 

Why do people assume that because others don't like/want a pvp STAT that they don't want pvp gear?

 

I don't like the idea of a pvp stat, but do think pvpers should be able to gain gear the same quality of raiders, even make expertise a pve stat instead, that way pvpers will never have the disadvantage of raiders having uber gear, but they also won't have their own gear that owns raiders gear...

 

PVP should be about skill, chances are in equal gear, a pvper will beat a raider, but it should be because they're better, not because their gear makes them hit 15% harder and take 15% less damage...

[xanix]

" make expertise a pve stats and eliminate it from the pvp gear ", best idea so far .

[mrmaska]

A pve player should not out gear a pvp player in pvp elements and the like. There has to be a stat to seperate this. People complain without thinking it through. We live in a politically correct world it seems, jake says to tim, hey tim your gear is not fair you can't wear that, I can't Kill you as often as you kill me. Tim says to jake, I spent months getting this gear what do you expect? Jake says to tim, I expect to have equal gear even if this is my first day pvping, also you have to let me kill you cause I'm not so good. No offense, but some of you guys are a bunch of jake azzes.

[Kavain]

Hey everyone,

 

the most fun I've had while playing PvP was during the level 60 time in World of Warcraft (before resilience was developed) and in the lower level part of Warhammer. That said, I agree with the OP on the statement that 'resilience or expertise' or whatever you call it is just utterly redundant. Blizzard made a bad call back in the time and now BioWare copied that move. Although I have to say that PvP in SWTOR is a lot of fun, I don't know how long it'll last when power-pvp-players finish farming their gear and pound the casual players in the ground. Because that wouldn't be fun and more importantly it would discourage future PvP interested player just because people would say: "Don't even join the PvP queues, it's not worth waiting 5 minutes just to get smacked in the face all the time by uber PvP players."

[Bakarn]

You guys have no idea what you're talking about. PvP stats were put in the game for two reason:

 

1. Differentiation of PvP and PvE gear - prior to this you ended up with high end raiders endlessly getting better at the game.

2. Just giving players higher health pools does NOT linearly increase survivability against PvE gear!

 

The mistake WoW made, and the mistake that this game has quite readily corrected, is that Expertise both decreases damage taken and increases damage done. You are NEVER going to get the immortal healer situation - you're actually doing the same level of damage to a healer as you would be without Expertise with the only caviat being any difference in expertise, and that the power of heals has been increased a little.

 

Itemization in this game is pretty well designed so far. Much better than WoW's. They made the extremely intelligent decision to reduce the magnitude of critical strikes to 50% and force people to scale that stat up if they want to go for a heavy crit build, and also greatly reduced the amount of skills that get past armour. As a result, there are very few natural "casters" in the game that just totally ignore tank armour.

 

The only real modification that needs to be made to the game is to make Expertise available earlier. They can do that by actually including the damn Expertise mods that are ALREADY IN THE FRIGGIN GAME.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Bakarn

[Rambuk]

You guys have no idea what you're talking about. PvP stats were put in the game for two reason:

 

1. Differentiation of PvP and PvE gear - prior to this you ended up with high end raiders endlessly getting better at the game.

2. Just giving players higher health pools does NOT linearly increase survivability against PvE gear!

 

The mistake WoW made, and the mistake that this game has quite readily corrected, is that Expertise both decreases damage taken and increases damage done. You are NEVER going to get the immortal healer situation - you're actually doing the same level of damage to a healer as you would be without Expertise with the only caviat being any difference in expertise, and that the power of heals has been increased a little.

 

Itemization in this game is pretty well designed so far. Much better than WoW's. They made the extremely intelligent decision to reduce the magnitude of critical strikes to 50% and force people to scale that stat up if they want to go for a heavy crit build, and also greatly reduced the amount of skills that get past armour. As a result, there are very few natural "casters" in the game that just totally ignore tank armour.

 

The only real modification that needs to be made to the game is to make Expertise available earlier. They can do that by actually including the damn Expertise mods that are ALREADY IN THE FRIGGIN GAME.

 

The mistake WoW made, was to make PvE gear better for both PvP and PvE, not to mention they made PvE gear a lot more abundant.

 

Just because WoW made PvE gear better for PvP and PvE, than PvP gear.. doesnt mean that it is the only possible senario. There are many ways around a problem like that.. Resilience / Expertise is not the only way.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Rambuk

[Gorto]

Hey everyone,

 

the most fun I've had while playing PvP was during the level 60 time in World of Warcraft (before resilience was developed) and in the lower level part of Warhammer.

 

Guess you never had your head smashed in by a player weilding full MC purples and the Sulfras hand of Ragnaros.

 

Or got thunder bombed by the windfury.

[CapuchinSeven]

Why do the forums always get cluttered with people crying and never getting the true bigger picture. You are all so short sighted and selfish all you see is the negatives (omg I have to work for it)

 

The reason you have a pvp stat is two fold. It discourages people using pve gear to pvp and from pvpers from dominating pve in their pvp gear.

 

Why you ask?

Well because this makes people gear from the activity they choose by doing that activity. You want to gear up to be better for pvp? You pvp. Want more dps for pve without sacrificing a stat on your gear for expertise? Do pve raids.

 

If you make it where one set of gear is supreme for both pve and pvp then you just force everyone into it. Which if you are a pvper then you might not want to pve and vice versa.

 

Does this discourage new players in pvp? Not anymore than new players in pve. You need to gear up to be better at both. I don't expect a fresh 50 to crank out crazy dps on a raid boss, so neither should that frsh 50 expect to dominate everyone in pvp.

 

Stop crying and play the game. Accept that pve and pvp are completly diffrent paths and need to be geared for as such.

 

Nice work reading the thread before posting there dude.

[Rizzit]

A level 50 PvP bracket simply will not save the PvP in this game.

 

There is no logical explanation for having a PvP stat in this MMO game, or in fact any MMO game. The only possible reason for Expertise to exist in this game is to screw over people who cant grind it first.

 

 

 

There is, spreads pveers from pvpers = you dont need to suck the d!ck of a Raidmaster

to be able to have fun in PvP

[Qlimitus]

I work hard for my gear and wouldn't want them to remove my stats in the gear ive worked hard to get either.The reason im stacked PVP is because i PVP i wouldn't want to wear PVE gear in a PVP arena lol

[Abanoth]

Guess you never had your head smashed in by a player weilding full MC purples and the Sulfras hand of Ragnaros.

 

Or got thunder bombed by the windfury.

 

Actually...after four years in the game, no. Saw a few hands/furies in BGs here and there but by and large I got smashed more times by Arena tards than raiders. Raiding also required a lot more work back then because if you think getting a 4-man group is hard, trying getting 40 people to work together consistantly.

 

Fact of the mattter is a PvP stat just turned PvP into another version of PvE grinding. Games like Battlefield and the stuff on Xbox have the right idea where gaining "levels" and unlocks simply gives you more options to play with rather than letting you faceroll anybody without them---which is why their pvp is more popular.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Abanoth

[Tattoonny]

What do Wow and Rift have in common seeing as some one else mentioned the names.... They both have extremely low new PvP player uptake. Getting people to enter PvP in those games and stick with it long enough to be on par gear wise (Or close enough to be competitive) simply doesn't happen, at a rate that replaces outgoing players.

 

Both of those games have PvP communities that loose members faster then they replace them with new Ex PvE Playing converts. The PvP stats make it VERY VERY hard to introduce new players to the fantastic world of PvP that we all get. I think most of us will grind on alts when we have too ect... because we are already hooked. There was a time when every one of us was not a PVP player... admit it none of us came to PvP first.

 

The bracketing that PvP stats creates drives away growth. It will become a problem for TOR in the future as well.

 

/close thread all has been said

[Anatharion]

The PVP stat of Expertise sucks the fun out of the game. The first week PVP was fun as hell. Now in the third week 6 out of every 8 man Imperial team is lvl 50. There are always lvl 50 premade geared out pvp Imperial 4 mans running and they are stomping the Republic into the ground. I know in a month i'll have full pvp gear and me and my guild friends that PVP a lot will all stand a chance. But damnit that's going to be a lot of pain until that month ends. When really if BW had never instituted the PVP stat in the first place these Warzones would have been fun all the way through the levelling experience.

 

Why play a game if it isnt' fun. Grinding levels by losing hundreds of pvp matches is not fun. If Bioware looked at the win ratio of the Imperials on my server and how many more lvl 50's with pvp gear they have they'll see the imbalances.

[BendakStarkiller]

If they remove the pvp stat then there is no reason to wear the pvp gear.

 

All it does is balance pvp and pve gear.

 

Its a way for PvPers to get gear by doing what they like to do, pvp, rather than forcing them to pve to stay competitive.

Edited January 8, 2012 by BendakStarkiller

[Zijofa]

If they remove the pvp stat then there is no reason to where the pvp gear.

 

All it does is balance pvp and pve gear.

 

Its a way for PvPers to get gear by doing what they like to do, pvp, rather than forcing them to pve to stay competitive.

Give them gear with a bit more endurance for example.

[Hamstaxo]

If they remove the pvp stat then there is no reason to wear the pvp gear.

 

All it does is balance pvp and pve gear.

 

Its a way for PvPers to get gear by doing what they like to do, pvp, rather than forcing them to pve to stay competitive.

 

correct

without expertise pvp only players would be f' up

every raidplayer could roll over them like a truck

 

pvp players do pvp and get pvp gear

pve players do pve and get pve gear

 

simple logic, simple design

[Kshahdoo]

Actually...after four years in the game, no. Saw a few hands/furies in BGs here and there but by and large I got smashed more times by Arena tards than raiders. Raiding also required a lot more work back then because if you think getting a 4-man group is hard, trying getting 40 people to work together consistantly.

 

Fact of the mattter is a PvP stat just turned PvP into another version of PvE grinding. Games like Battlefield and the stuff on Xbox have the right idea where gaining "levels" and unlocks simply gives you more options to play with rather than letting you faceroll anybody without them---which is why their pvp is more popular.

 

Lol man, I bet you didn't try to get 14 pvp rank in vanilla WoW or you'd never say raiding was harder than farming those damned ranks.