Grouped with a power tech today...disheartening

[Rafkin]

So I joined a group for a heroic quest and the group had a power tech. I was level 36, he was level 33.

 

We never clarified who would tank and it didn't seem important. So I stayed in my tank stance and the only time I ever had aggro was during the 6 seconds I used a forced taunt.

 

I've defended jugg tanking a lot here because I haven't had much trouble tanking flashpoints or soloing but this was disheartening.

 

I had 3 levels on the powertech. I had increased aggro from my tank stance. Even backhand wouldn't rip aggro.

 

He was tank spec'd as well.

 

Of course, my jugg looks a lot better...I think tanking with a pistol looks lame.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Rafkin

[youwillburn]

ironicly a pistol is probably better for tanking due to the buttload of mobs that KB you. Do melee tanks get a KB resist talent? Of course not. Edited January 2, 2012 by youwillburn

[Kolbenito]

So I joined a group for a heroic quest and the group had a power tech. I was level 36, he was level 33.

 

We never clarified who would tank and it didn't seem important. So I stayed in my tank stance and the only time I ever had aggro was during the 6 seconds I used a forced taunt.

 

I've defended jugg tanking a lot here because I haven't had much trouble tanking flashpoints or soloing but this was disheartening.

 

I had 3 levels on the powertech. I had increased aggro from my tank stance. Even backhand wouldn't rip aggro.

 

He was tank spec'd as well.

 

Of course, my jugg looks a lot better...I think tanking with a pistol looks lame.

 

He most likely out damaged you by a significant amount too, being a logical explanation for having all the threat.

[Quor]

So I joined a group for a heroic quest and the group had a power tech. I was level 36, he was level 33.

 

We never clarified who would tank and it didn't seem important. So I stayed in my tank stance and the only time I ever had aggro was during the 6 seconds I used a forced taunt.

 

I've defended jugg tanking a lot here because I haven't had much trouble tanking flashpoints or soloing but this was disheartening.

 

I had 3 levels on the powertech. I had increased aggro from my tank stance. Even backhand wouldn't rip aggro.

 

He was tank spec'd as well.

 

Of course, my jugg looks a lot better...I think tanking with a pistol looks lame.

 

With all due respect, you're 36. You don't have Crushing Blow (the top Immortal talent) and you don't have the entire toolkit of Juggernaut abilities, nor the gear to support the playstyle.

 

I've done hard mode flashpoints (not just regular heroic quests) with Jugs and Powertechs tanking, and both have managed to do so successfully. The only thing the Powertech has on the Jug is the ability to corral mobs better due to Grapple, but a Jug can single target tank something like no one's business. Multiple mobs are a bit of an issue, but not much as long as you use proper CC (something you should be doing in a hard mode FP regardless of tank) and you understand that not every mob needs to be tanked by the MT all the time. Silver's can be off-tanked by a DPS Jug or Marauder easily, and you would want to burn the silver down first anyway since they will die faster and thus you'll remove a lot of incoming damage from the enemy group.

 

So, in short, things get much better as you level up, especially post-40 when you can have a full Immortal spec.

[Rafkin]

You kinda missed the point of my post. The powertech didnt have his top tree abilities either.

[Quor]

You kinda missed the point of my post. The powertech didnt have his top tree abilities either.

 

Have you looked at the top tier ability for a Powertech tank? It's ****! It vents heat and deals like 800 elemental damage. It only has a 10m range. It's basically filler to vent heat so they can do something else that actually matters.

 

Now for us, our top tier tank tree talent is a massive *********** swing that *will* ruin the **** of anything it happens to hit. On top of that, the two talents immediately preceding it improve both threat generation (via more rage from Soresu) and survivability. What does PT get? 10% more shield chance (which is nice, but not nearly as key as doubling the rage gen on damage in Soresu, or increasing the duration of Endure Pain by 50%).

 

Hence, the point of *my* post is that Immortal end-tree talents provide a MUCH bigger gain for Jugs than Shield Tech end-tree talents provide for Powertechs. Which is another way of saying hit 50 before you make a final judgement.

[eightohfive]

You kinda missed the point of my post. The powertech didnt have his top tree abilities either.

 

Your still in your 30's, you have plenty of new abilities to look forward to. Balancing is hard enough at max level when everyone has all their skills, trying to keep the classes balanced throughout the entire leveling process is just not reasonable (all the leveling content can be beaten with any combination of tank, healer, and 2 dps so it's kind of a mute point).

 

Not saying Jugg tanks do or don't need tweaking at max level (I'm a dps, so I don't know), but you should really only worry about balance at max level, use your time leveling to learn your class as best you can (enjoy the story!). Then, after you hit 50, you will be in a good position to make valuable contributions about what tweaks warriors need.

[Darth_Victus]

I can relate to how it feels to have someone of a lower level then you be able to out perferm you in the role you've chosen.

[Yfelsung]

You kinda missed the point of my post. The powertech didnt have his top tree abilities either.

 

It is impossible to balance all the classes so that they remain balanced at all levels of play.

 

50 vs 50 balance is all that matters, as that is what the majority of the game will become.

 

He may have better threat at 33, but you may have had better at 22, he may do better DPS at 40, but you might overtake at 44.

 

Classes are NEVER balanced at lower levels.

[Darth_Victus]

It is impossible to balance all the classes so that they remain balanced at all levels of play.

 

50 vs 50 balance is all that matters, as that is what the majority of the game will become.

 

He may have better threat at 33, but you may have had better at 22, he may do better DPS at 40, but you might overtake at 44.

 

Classes are NEVER balanced at lower levels.

 

So what your saying is that one class due to reputation should be shunned by groups and other players because all that matters is when everyone is level 50 it all balances out?

 

You are correct that it is nearly impossible to balance all classes through out leveling, however there are ways to make it so that each class has something the other doesnt to make them able to compete while leveling.

 

Currently, the Juggernaut does not have anything to make it stand out that a Powertech or Assassin does not have or can not do.

[bananaface]

Too bad at 50 you can't hold threat while a SI or BH tank can.

[Yfelsung]

So what your saying is that one class due to reputation should be shunned by groups and other players because all that matters is when everyone is level 50 it all balances out?

 

You are correct that it is nearly impossible to balance all classes through out leveling, however there are ways to make it so that each class has something the other doesnt to make them able to compete while leveling.

 

Currently, the Juggernaut does not have anything to make it stand out that a Powertech or Assassin does not have or can not do.

 

Where did I say that?

 

A Juggernaut can tank just fine from 1 to 50. You'd have to be utterly incompetant to not be able to tank as a Juggernaut.

 

What I said is that just because you can't hold threat of ANOTHER TANK CLASS doesn't mean the class is bloody broken.

 

A tank has to hold aggro, that's his job and Juggs can do it just fine.

 

These "Jugs can't tank" posts are giving me "Prot can't AoE tank" flashbacks from WoW.

[youwillburn]

Where did I say that?

 

A Juggernaut can tank just fine from 1 to 50. You'd have to be utterly incompetant to not be able to tank as a Juggernaut.

 

What I said is that just because you can't hold threat of ANOTHER TANK CLASS doesn't mean the class is bloody broken.

 

A tank has to hold aggro, that's his job and Juggs can do it just fine.

 

These "Jugs can't tank" posts are giving me "Prot can't AoE tank" flashbacks from WoW.

 

Lol wut? Constantly losing threat to another tank is proof that Juggs need reworking. Bioware said themselves ALL specs should perform equal meaning, dps tank and heals. The fact that Juggs are instantly degraded to a subpar DPS when a powertech is present =/= all specs are balanced.

[Klogmonster]

Too bad at 50 you can't hold threat while a SI or BH tank can.

 

You mean you yourself can't, right? I'm not seeing the threat issue at 50. Must be your graphics card.

[Yfelsung]

Lol wut? Constantly losing threat to another tank is proof that Juggs need reworking. Bioware said themselves ALL specs should perform equal meaning, dps tank and heals. The fact that Juggs are instantly degraded to a subpar DPS when a powertech is present =/= all specs are balanced.

 

But all specs are probably a lot more equal AT 50.

 

We're talking 33 and 36 here, that balance is ALWAYS GOING TO BE OFF.

 

If he, as a Jugg, can't hold aggro off an equally geared PT at 50, THEN we can have a conversation.

 

Balance disparities at 33 and 36 don't mean jack.

[DiLune]

Juggs are harder to tank with than Powertechs and Assassins. Our dmg also appears to be a little lower. We need tweaks, but I don't think we aren't a good tank. It just takes a lot of work.

[Strayjack]

With all due respect, you're 36. You don't have Crushing Blow (the top Immortal talent) and you don't have the entire toolkit of Juggernaut abilities, nor the gear to support the playstyle.

 

I've done hard mode flashpoints (not just regular heroic quests) with Jugs and Powertechs tanking, and both have managed to do so successfully. The only thing the Powertech has on the Jug is the ability to corral mobs better due to Grapple, but a Jug can single target tank something like no one's business. Multiple mobs are a bit of an issue, but not much as long as you use proper CC (something you should be doing in a hard mode FP regardless of tank) and you understand that not every mob needs to be tanked by the MT all the time. Silver's can be off-tanked by a DPS Jug or Marauder easily, and you would want to burn the silver down first anyway since they will die faster and thus you'll remove a lot of incoming damage from the enemy group.

 

So, in short, things get much better as you level up, especially post-40 when you can have a full Immortal spec.

 

Juggs don't have a passive mitigating factor that clearly define Threat. Threat should not only be subjected to damage, if so then there is no use for Juggs because they can't contain a mob to stay focus on them. Any BH will take agro in that matter, which should be discouraged but cannot be helped if the dynamic of the game dictates it.

[Strayjack]

Where did I say that?

 

A Juggernaut can tank just fine from 1 to 50. You'd have to be utterly incompetant to not be able to tank as a Juggernaut.

 

What I said is that just because you can't hold threat of ANOTHER TANK CLASS doesn't mean the class is bloody broken.

 

A tank has to hold aggro, that's his job and Juggs can do it just fine.

 

These "Jugs can't tank" posts are giving me "Prot can't AoE tank" flashbacks from WoW.

 

LOL 1-50? You clearly have not been following the thread. It is not incompetence on the players part for their threat to be diminished during a fight. There is lack of passive ability, learned skill to improve threat or take damage without having a companion healer at all time.

 

The Chii-Form should at least have increase Threat stats. If you are increasing dps, and mitigating damage, should threat be increased as well?

Edited January 3, 2012 by Strayjack

[Yfelsung]

LOL 1-50? You clearly have not been following the thread. It is not incompetence on the players part for their threat to be diminished during a fight. There is lack of passive ability, learned skill to improve threat or take damage without having a companion healer at all time.

 

Well, I'm a juggernaut and I'm tanking fine and have been tanking fine since I started.

 

I generally live by the rule that if one person can do it, and one person can't, the fault lies in the person not the class.

 

As long as one human being can tank effectively with a Juggernaut, then the class can tank.

 

Whether people have the skill level to use it may be another thing all together.

 

As I said, this is literally idenitcal to arguments about prot warriors in WoW in TBC and beyond.

 

Some warriors would scream about how we could not AoE tank as well as Pallys and Druids.

 

Guess what. I AoE tanked just fine then too.

 

I've played tanks exclusively in my MMO career. The Juggernaut is nothing new, it's the same tank style I've been playing for a decade. It's not UP, it's not OP, it's just a tank and a relatively easy one to use.

[Strayjack]

But all specs are probably a lot more equal AT 50.

 

We're talking 33 and 36 here, that balance is ALWAYS GOING TO BE OFF.

 

If he, as a Jugg, can't hold aggro off an equally geared PT at 50, THEN we can have a conversation.

 

Balance disparities at 33 and 36 don't mean jack.

 

"Probably" does not sink well with me. That's what everyone have been saying, wait till 50. We see the Jugg need adjustment at 1-10, 11-20, etc... I'm not going to keep my hopes up that they will fix this class. If they do then, fine. But, regardless what happens in the future, I will surely not waste my time. I will level a different class to 50 before I do a Jugg.

[Guaritorr]

LOL 1-50? You clearly have not been following the thread. It is not incompetence on the players part for their threat to be diminished during a fight. There is lack of passive ability, learned skill to improve threat or take damage without having a companion healer at all time.

 

The Chii-Form should at least have increase Threat stats. If you are increasing dps, and mitigating damage, should threat be increased as well?

 

Soresu form, gained at lvl 14 by the Juggernaught/Guardian AC's increases threat by 50% as well as armor by 60%, reducing damage taken by 6%, increasing shield chance by 15%, and adding rage generation when hit. This is the tanking form/stance.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/8eCuJyq

Edited January 3, 2012 by Guaritorr

[Strayjack]

Well, I'm a juggernaut and I'm tanking fine and have been tanking fine since I started.

 

I generally live by the rule that if one person can do it, and one person can't, the fault lies in the person not the class.

 

As long as one human being can tank effectively with a Juggernaut, then the class can tank.

 

Whether people have the skill level to use it may be another thing all together.

 

As I said, this is literally idenitcal to arguments about prot warriors in WoW in TBC and beyond.

 

Some warriors would scream about how we could not AoE tank as well as Pallys and Druids.

 

Guess what. I AoE tanked just fine then too.

 

I've played tanks exclusively in my MMO career. The Juggernaut is nothing new, it's the same tank style I've been playing for a decade. It's not UP, it's not OP, it's just a tank and a relatively easy one to use.

 

Sorry to say but your principle of tanking is somewhat discredited in this game.

[Yfelsung]

"Probably" does not sink well with me. That's what everyone have been saying, wait till 50. We see the Jugg need adjustment at 1-10, 11-20, etc... I'm not going to keep my hopes up that they will fix this class. If they do then, fine. But, regardless what happens in the future, I will surely not waste my time. I will level a different class to 50 before I do a Jugg.

 

Correction, YOU SEE the class needing adjustments at 1-20, 11-20.

 

I see no problems. Been leveling as Immortal spec as well.

 

I Level tank, group tank and PvP tank and I'm almost 50 (45).

 

I grouped with a 47 sniper last night and could hold threat even when she got the first volley of shots.

 

You show me a video of a full-key-binder having threat issues at 50 and we'll have a discussion.

[Yfelsung]

Sorry to say but your principle of tanking is somewhat discredited in this game.

 

Discredited how?

 

An Immortal Juggernaut plays so similar to a Prot Warrior it's almost like riding a bike for me.

 

Most of the game's classes can be directly compared to a WoW class.

 

Ever look at a Merc's healing tree? They're resto shaman, right down to having Earth Shield and Ancestral Fortitude.

 

A tanking PT is a Prot pally.

 

I love this game, I think it's a thousand times better than WoW, but the classes are nearly direct rip offs. But I'm okay with this as it allows me to put 5 years of Prot warrior tanking experience into my new class.

 

I used to tank 40 mans in blues, tanking in this game is like a walk in the park compared to holding threat of crit-happy warlocks.

[Strayjack]

Correction, YOU SEE the class needing adjustments at 1-20, 11-20.

 

I see no problems. Been leveling as Immortal spec as well.

 

I Level tank, group tank and PvP tank and I'm almost 50 (45).

 

I grouped with a 47 sniper last night and could hold threat even when she got the first volley of shots.

 

You show me a video of a full-key-binder having threat issues at 50 and we'll have a discussion.

 

You see I cannot provide you a lvl 50 Jugg tanking because I do not have one. The discussion was from a lvl 30+, basically from lowbies. You say you have not noticed any discrepancy with threat and damage mitigation?

 

I will see if I can get a video out of a companion 98% taking agro away. Remember that we are talking lowbie here. It may be a waste of time because I'm positive that other players have experienced this.