Sith Marauder - No Force Push?

[Crassius]

I just realized Marauders don't get Saber Throw either. I'm re-rolling a Jugg.

 

There are actually two "saber throws". One is Juggernaut only 30ft range, builds 3 rage (i think?), about 15 sec cd, and does minimal damage. The other is for Sith Warriors in general, can be used only when your target is under 20% health, 5 or 10 ft range, all 6 sec, and hits very hard -> vicious throw.

 

Juggernauts really aren't off better than Marauders. You will realize that at some point.

 

I recommend either continuing your Marauder and waiting for a balance patch, or starting another class entirely.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Crassius

[CharlieMitchell]

If you compare a marauder to an immortal tank spec juggernaut then ya the marauder's cc/defensive capability will look like crap.

 

If you compare a marauder to a dps spec juggernaut then you have ZERO to complain about.

 

Why's this you say?

 

Let's compare marauder to dps juggernaut.

 

A dps spec juggernaut has saber ward which marauder has.

 

A juggernaut has access to endure pain, a +30% hp for 10 seconds boost once every 3 minutes.

 

Juggernaut has force push which can be used offensively given the right situation or defensively.

 

And that's it for cc's/defensive cd's for dps spec juggernauts folks.

 

Now let's compare that to any maruader spec.

 

 

 

Marauders have saber ward too.

 

Marauders have access to force choke as well.

 

Marauders have undying rage which sacrifices 50% hp for 5 seconds of 99% damage invulnerability on a 90 second cd.

 

Marauders have force camouflage which vanishes you from combat, drops aggro and grants invisibility and 30% movement speed for 4 seconds on a 45 second cd. With a certain talent spec you can either make this grant 100% damage reduction for it's duration or break all movement impairing effects. Boy that must be nice.

 

Marauders get Obfuscate which reduces enemy melee and ranged accuracy by 90% for 6 seconds on a 1 minute cd. For those of you not in the know, 90% accuracy reduction is damn near equivalent to +90% defense.

 

And we're not even done!

 

Marauders get deadly throw. A 10m ranged saber throw that does damage and reduces healing by 20%. And with a certain talent spec you can grant deadly throw a 3 second immobilize from 10 meters!

 

Marauders get cloak of pain which in a 1v1 fight can have near 50% up time and reduces damage by 20%. With this active you have similar damage reduction to a dps juggernaut in heavy armor. But, it gets better because with 2 talent points you can get the up time on this ability even higher!

 

Marauders get Fury! Hey you get to be a unique and beautiful snowflake! With this you gain fury killing enemies and using rage costing abilities. Once you reach 30 fury you get to activate 1 of 2 awesome group/self buffs and 1 individual buff. And hey, you also get frenzy when you just have to have 30 stacks fury right now!

 

 

I'm not gonna even go into the whole juggernauts do more dps bologna.

 

Try getting to 50 and getting geared.

 

If you want to dps as a sith warrior marauder has all the best goodies. The best pvp ability that dps juggernauts have access to is Unstoppable which grants 20% damage reduction and 4 seconds immunity to cc every time you force charge. That's it.

 

Roll juggernaut if you want to tank AND have the option to dps, but don't go making up BS about how dps juggernauts are superior when I just listed myriad reasons they are not just from a cc/defensive cd standpoint.

 

 

Agreed. I play a DPS Jugg, and like you said, in terms of CC/Defensive Cooldowns, Mauraders have all kinds of goodies that we don't have.

[Ephixar]

OP - how are u supose to force push with a lightsaber n both hands? tbh you shouldnt even have force choke!@

[nonumbers]

Im gona tell you just what i told my friend, You wanted more Dmg so you lack CC dont complain when you get into pvp and cry how you cant push/root/snare/stun them like a Guard/jugg's Can.

 

We already lost survivability for that damage, why would we lose CC as well! That's crazy talk, we also are melee range fighters what means we're essentially in the most vulnerable position for a non-tank class on top of it all and then to top it all off we don't actually have more DPS then other DPS builds, we have less* and those DPS builds have CCs. Go figure.

 

* with the exception of assassin's DPS tree

 

The few CCs we have are either 2~5 seconds immobile or slow effects which only stops things moving away from us, it rarely stops anything actually attacking back. The only other move we could use is force choke which is a channel ability that can't really be considered CC because we're stuck on the enemy we are choking and it only lasts a couple of seconds.

 

sure we lose things for our DPS, but people are justifying FAR too much on what is sub-par DPS for a DPS class and even if it were in line with the others, we'd still be down on the CCs and still in a more vulnerable position while still having the armor of a soaked bit of a kitchen towel.

 

Sith Marauder does need at least 1 stun CC that works on anything higher then weak/standard mobs and force pull (not sure why people want a melee fighter to have force push that seems counter productive to me). Slightly more HP (more HP doesn't make one a better tank but makes one more able to survive) and lastly more damage so that we're at least able to out-preform juggernauts on damage before we start getting the critical bonuses in the late 30s and 40s.

Edited January 3, 2012 by nonumbers

[NasherUK]

Marauder does quite a bit more damage than Jugg. Jugg leans more towards survival instead of damage, Marauder is the opposite.

 

Neither really has an advantage in pvp, after about 2 stuns the target becomes immune anyway so it's not like you can use them all.

Edited January 3, 2012 by NasherUK

[ItzNeak]

Marauders are so underpowered atm.... We need a buff.

 

i agree, im a marauder and we get stunned more than anyone and we only have 1 unleash? with a 2 minute cool down, we need it to be AT LEAST 30 second cool down, also it would be nice to have a move to knock back enemies as well. Im a lvl 50 marauder and fully BM and I still have a little bit of trouble. We really do need a buff, we cant damage anything when we are stunned 50 times in one pvp game.

[Elyx]

If you compare a marauder to an immortal tank spec juggernaut then ya the marauder's cc/defensive capability will look like crap.

 

If you compare a marauder to a dps spec juggernaut then you have ZERO to complain about.

 

Why's this you say?

 

Let's compare marauder to dps juggernaut.

 

A dps spec juggernaut has saber ward which marauder has.

 

A juggernaut has access to endure pain, a +30% hp for 10 seconds boost once every 3 minutes.

 

Juggernaut has force push which can be used offensively given the right situation or defensively.

 

And that's it for cc's/defensive cd's for dps spec juggernauts folks.

 

Now let's compare that to any maruader spec.

 

 

 

Marauders have saber ward too.

 

Marauders have access to force choke as well.

 

Marauders have undying rage which sacrifices 50% hp for 5 seconds of 99% damage invulnerability on a 90 second cd.

 

Marauders have force camouflage which vanishes you from combat, drops aggro and grants invisibility and 30% movement speed for 4 seconds on a 45 second cd. With a certain talent spec you can either make this grant 100% damage reduction for it's duration or break all movement impairing effects. Boy that must be nice.

 

Marauders get Obfuscate which reduces enemy melee and ranged accuracy by 90% for 6 seconds on a 1 minute cd. For those of you not in the know, 90% accuracy reduction is damn near equivalent to +90% defense.

 

And we're not even done!

 

Marauders get deadly throw. A 10m ranged saber throw that does damage and reduces healing by 20%. And with a certain talent spec you can grant deadly throw a 3 second immobilize from 10 meters!

 

Marauders get cloak of pain which in a 1v1 fight can have near 50% up time and reduces damage by 20%. With this active you have similar damage reduction to a dps juggernaut in heavy armor. But, it gets better because with 2 talent points you can get the up time on this ability even higher!

 

Marauders get Fury! Hey you get to be a unique and beautiful snowflake! With this you gain fury killing enemies and using rage costing abilities. Once you reach 30 fury you get to activate 1 of 2 awesome group/self buffs and 1 individual buff. And hey, you also get frenzy when you just have to have 30 stacks fury right now!

 

 

I'm not gonna even go into the whole juggernauts do more dps bologna.

 

Try getting to 50 and getting geared.

 

If you want to dps as a sith warrior marauder has all the best goodies. The best pvp ability that dps juggernauts have access to is Unstoppable which grants 20% damage reduction and 4 seconds immunity to cc every time you force charge. That's it.

 

Roll juggernaut if you want to tank AND have the option to dps, but don't go making up BS about how dps juggernauts are superior when I just listed myriad reasons they are not just from a cc/defensive cd standpoint.

 

QFT...and for all those peeps who continued to rant about Mauraders needing boosts compared to Jugg's.

 

If you pay attention to high end raiders that are doing tests in PvE, Juggs are only a small bit behind Mauraders overall in damage. to me it's a wash. mauraders defensive capabilities far outshine the Juggs UNLESS the Jugg goes full immortal, in which we loose a TON OF DAMAGE. You poor little mauraders don't like having to play with CD's? Sorry to break your bubble, but Juggs are as CD dependant as you are. Especially if they roll Rage for PvP.

 

To the OP: The reason they dropped force push from Mara/Sent's in beta was because they were overbalanced with it. I'll tell you what: I'll give you force push if you give me:

 

Undying rage

Force Camo

Obfuscate

Deadly Throw

and Cloak of Pain. and I want the Fury mechanic for my Vengance tree while were at it.

 

I figure since were on the "they get something i don't get" train, ill throw my wish list in. or you can just tough it up and roll a jugg...because we pay a heavy price to get our nifty force push. Don't want to pay the price? don't whine. willing to reroll? welcome to the club. You'll quickly realize that the grass is greener on my lawn...only in your mind.

[Cegenaus]

This.

 

Assassins/Shadows do just as much damage while having a metric crap ton of CC, so do Snipers/Gunslingers who do even more damage whilst having more CC too. Lets not forget the Troopers/Bounty Hunters who have as much damage whilst simultaneously being very tanky or healy WITH CC as well.

 

So... why don't Sentinels and Marauders have CC, anyone?

 

 

troopers/bh do as much damage as maras? i dont think you know what you are talking about. the only way a bh could do as much damage as a mara is if they were left alone and everyone stood in a tight group or they got awesome procs all game. healy? my arsenal merc heals for 1400-1700 with a crit up to 3k with a 1.5 sec activation time. i can hit 1700 with the first TM for 1700 with a 1.5 activation time, i wouldnt call that "healy" one bit

 

it would be nice to have mara defensive abilities or maybe some utility considering merc has none what so ever but we forget about all of that when we are making biased comparisons. mara has the advantage over ranged in every situation but when there is an uneven ground surface and if they play right that doesnt matter either but yet thats still not enough eh?

[Dacer]

QFT...and for all those peeps who continued to rant about Mauraders needing boosts compared to Jugg's.

 

If you pay attention to high end raiders that are doing tests in PvE, Juggs are only a small bit behind Mauraders overall in damage. to me it's a wash. mauraders defensive capabilities far outshine the Juggs UNLESS the Jugg goes full immortal, in which we loose a TON OF DAMAGE. You poor little mauraders don't like having to play with CD's? Sorry to break your bubble, but Juggs are as CD dependant as you are. Especially if they roll Rage for PvP.

 

To the OP: The reason they dropped force push from Mara/Sent's in beta was because they were overbalanced with it. I'll tell you what: I'll give you force push if you give me:

 

Undying rage

Force Camo

Obfuscate

Deadly Throw

and Cloak of Pain. and I want the Fury mechanic for my Vengance tree while were at it.

 

I figure since were on the "they get something i don't get" train, ill throw my wish list in. or you can just tough it up and roll a jugg...because we pay a heavy price to get our nifty force push. Don't want to pay the price? don't whine. willing to reroll? welcome to the club. You'll quickly realize that the grass is greener on my lawn...only in your mind.

 

Well. my main is a Marauder , but i also have a lvl 45 guard.

Would i like a Force Push, yes. Why? because its cool and iconic. and I can think of lots of fun things to do with it in WZs

 

But to address your complaint about complaining.

 

The fact that you use a rage spec Jug in your arguement about being CD reliant... yea a Mara rage spec is more CD reliant because( see below). Bad point to make your case on that one.

 

I think we all know that all warrior ACs are pretty CD heavy - but the fact is Marauders a little more so especially in terms of survivability ( comparing a DPS(ven/rage) speced jug)

 

Mainly because to get even close to a jugs passive damage mitigation you have to have cloak of pain up, its easy to counter btw and its not exactly up a lot.

 

BUT since you a saying the ablitiies you wanted... let me point out what you have

 

 

jugs have passive ~45%+ damage mitigation ( maras - carnage/anni ) have like ~24 rage might be like 30

rage spec a jug has basically 3 force jumps

Force push

endure ( would love that )

your AOE snare - that would be awesome to have

Oh and lets not forget your other utlities

Taunt and AoE Taunt even when dps spec'd Thats pretty awesome .

 

 

Woa its almost like you keep all the cool tanking ablilities while still doing crazy dps.

 

[Prolyfic]

Guys, it always balances out this way in every MMO with pvp..

 

the tanks get the most CC/interference moves because they can't kill as well

dps get FEWEST CC moves, and of DPS ranged DPS tend to have more CC because they have to kite US, melee dps

 

also we have one of the best CC in the game, permasnare useable right after charge. We don't need to CC to keep up because everyone has to limp away from us if we charge->snare in pvp. it only takes one gcd to get KBed and their slow will stick to them longer than your 4s kb slow

Edited April 4, 2012 by Prolyfic

[ultimatesjk]

They have one....., and it's short range, low damage, and reduces healing....

 

And another at higher levels that can only be used on targets under 20% health, or something like that, but deals 700-800 damage.

[ultimatesjk]

QFT...and for all those peeps who continued to rant about Mauraders needing boosts compared to Jugg's.

 

If you pay attention to high end raiders that are doing tests in PvE, Juggs are only a small bit behind Mauraders overall in damage. to me it's a wash. mauraders defensive capabilities far outshine the Juggs UNLESS the Jugg goes full immortal, in which we loose a TON OF DAMAGE. You poor little mauraders don't like having to play with CD's? Sorry to break your bubble, but Juggs are as CD dependant as you are. Especially if they roll Rage for PvP.

 

To the OP: The reason they dropped force push from Mara/Sent's in beta was because they were overbalanced with it. I'll tell you what: I'll give you force push if you give me:

 

Undying rage

Force Camo

Obfuscate

Deadly Throw

and Cloak of Pain. and I want the Fury mechanic for my Vengance tree while were at it.

 

I figure since were on the "they get something i don't get" train, ill throw my wish list in. or you can just tough it up and roll a jugg...because we pay a heavy price to get our nifty force push. Don't want to pay the price? don't whine. willing to reroll? welcome to the club. You'll quickly realize that the grass is greener on my lawn...only in your mind.

 

I think you're my favorite poster on this thread. Thank you for actually seeing things for what they are!

[Elyx]

 

jugs have passive ~45%+ damage mitigation ( maras - carnage/anni ) have like ~24 rage might be like 30

rage spec a jug has basically 3 force jumps

Force push

endure ( would love that )

your AOE snare - that would be awesome to have

Oh and lets not forget your other utlities

Taunt and AoE Taunt even when dps spec'd Thats pretty awesome .

 

 

Woa its almost like you keep all the cool tanking ablilities while still doing crazy dps.

 

 

I'll definitely give you the point on CD's possibly it's better to say that mara's one of the only classes more dependant then the Jugg? we still both have to manage them quite a bit. a comparative would be the PT, who really only has 1 CD, the rest is passive mitigation. But point well made.

 

But you did miss one important part of my post, which makes your last statement incorrect. We do not get to keep all our passive mitigation while getting great DPS. We lose a HUGE ton of DPS when we drop into Soresu stance. All you have to do is look at the talent tree. Many of the talents that increase our defenses require soresu. also, many of the critical rage saving talents require soresu as well. and by the time you've specced deep enough into the immortal tree to get the msot beneficial talents, you've pretty much lost the dps gain from both the rage and vengeance trees.

 

you can't get both on a jugg. the big difference with a Mara (pending some spec defining abilities) is that you get most of your CD's (the ones that gove you an edge in PvP) without losing your DPS. the Immortal jugg has to lose considerable DPS to gain the survival talents that you just "include" in your overall assessment.

 

Plus your taking into account damage mitigation types that are very different. Armor reduction cannot compare to overall damage mitigation. our tanking form buffs primarily armor. it does get a passive across the board DR, but again, I'm currently losing over 6% damage across the board by just switching to that stance (12% if I have invested in Shien). not to mention 2 very big attacks, bleeds....

 

On a different note, I was being partially figurative with my list. I really don't want all of those. but even with half of them the jugg would fare far better then they currently do. And Maras are in a pretty sweet spot as it is, given the sheer amount of tools you have.

 

But all thats rhetoric really. you wont get push. muahahahaha! mine mine mine!

 

but you have a jugg, so your already experiencing the best of both worlds! I would kill just to have a cloak ability on my jugg....

Edited April 4, 2012 by Elyx

[Elyx]

Actually, to put a different twist on this convo...

 

what would you give up for Push? If we had a trade, what?

 

Force push is officially on the table boys! Bidding starts at a force camo! WITH the apppriate talent to give us the DR on top of it...

Edited April 4, 2012 by Elyx

[Grishnaak]

I wouldn´t trade anything for such a silly skill like Force Push on a Marauder. Why would I push my enemy away? Hillarious!

 

Just give the foce choke a 360 degree rotation ability, so I can pick up an enemy, force choking him, while turning me around my axis and thereby "moving" him over the the ridge, so he drops when force choke ends (by whatever circumstances). That would be cool and some intelligent CC with given skill.

 

Just make the choked victim moveable around my axis. That would be a great and much needed addition to our Force Choke CC!

 

The problem we Marauders have right now is:

 

We are the only ones who can not displace anyone in pvp!

 

That´s espescially hurting when playing Huttenball, for once an enemy is near your homezone, you cant get him down the ledge.

Or away from a door.

 

Or on Civil War, down of Turret Control. (Yes, there are still ppl who park themselves on top of a Turret Control so you got real trouble attacking them, pls fix this BW).

 

and so on,

and so on...

 

As PT, I can rope them to me.

As Sorc, I can kick all around me

And so forth...

 

Displacement of enemies is a vital part of strategic pvp.

 

As far as the strategic element of displacement goes, we Marauders are pretty useless.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Grishnaak

[TheronFett]

There's a simple answer to all the QQ in this thread. You can't have it all. Class envy can be solved by rolling another toon. It takes 2 weeks to get a character to 50, so I don't understand why all the whining.

 

You'll see that the grass isn't always greener.

Edited April 4, 2012 by TheronFett

[DarthPunitor]

decent marauders are practically op as it is, why not just give them heals too if you want them to have ubiquitous utility?

[ItzNeak]

I wouldn´t trade anything for such a silly skill like Force Push on a Marauder. Why would I push my enemy away? Hillarious!

 

Just give the foce choke a 360 degree rotation ability, so I can pick up an enemy, force choking him, while turning me around my axis and thereby "moving" him over the the ridge, so he drops when force choke ends (by whatever circumstances). That would be cool and some intelligent CC with given skill.

 

Just make the choked victim moveable around my axis. That would be a great and much needed addition to our Force Choke CC!

 

The problem we Marauders have right now is:

 

We are the only ones who can not displace anyone in pvp!

 

That´s espescially hurting when playing Huttenball, for once an enemy is near your homezone, you cant get him down the ledge.

Or away from a door.

 

Or on Civil War, down of Turret Control. (Yes, there are still ppl who park themselves on top of a Turret Control so you got real trouble attacking them, pls fix this BW).

 

and so on,

and so on...

 

As PT, I can rope them to me.

As Sorc, I can kick all around me

And so forth...

 

Displacement of enemies is a vital part of strategic pvp.

 

As far as the strategic element of displacement goes, we Marauders are pretty useless.

 

100% agree with you, we marauders are pretty useless.

[Dee-Jay]

jugs have passive ~45%+ damage mitigation ( maras - carnage/anni ) have like ~24 rage might be like 30

rage spec a jug has basically 3 force jumps

Force push

endure ( would love that )

your AOE snare - that would be awesome to have

Oh and lets not forget your other utlities

Taunt and AoE Taunt even when dps spec'd Thats pretty awesome .

 

 

Woa its almost like you keep all the cool tanking ablilities while still doing crazy dps.

 

 

Aehm....no

 

1. Juggers have roughly 34% DR from armor in Shii-Sho form. And that damage reduction only applies to melee and kinetic damage iirc. Most damage in PvP however is from sources that bypass armor completely (internal and elemental).

 

So in reality that 34% DR isn't nearly as useful as you'd think. Especially not if you consider the fact that somehow Marauders have roughly 1500 more HP in full BM gear compared to DPS Juggernauts.

 

2. Are you referring to Intercede? Yes..a unique ability that's very useful in Huttball, but really doesn't add a huge amount of survivability elsewhere. It's not bad, just very situational.

 

3. Force Push - yes, we too get cool and unique abilities. A shame for the 1 minute CD when every one else seems to have AoE knockbacks on a 20 sek. CD.

 

4. You would love Endure, would you? You can have it.

 

Just picture how awesome Undying Rage would be if you received all that damage the ability mitigated after the effect ends. How cool would that be? About as cool as Endure.

 

5. You like our AoE snare? As Rage I rarely use it since Force Crush already has a slow effect. The other specs rely on it more, but hey, they are worse than Rage.

 

6. Yep, Taunts are awesome. For the team. They just don't do much for us. Taunts have no direct effect on your personal survivability.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Dee-Jay

[Rockerfox]

I'd much rather have a pull than a push. The amount of times I get knocked back and need to catch up quick when charge and obliterate are on cd is insane. Plus I just think it would be awesome to pull people right to me.

[nerfAvari]

I have been waiting so long to get dual-wield on my Juggernaut just to find out that I don't get it. It makes no sense to me why Juggs/Marauders both get Force Choke, but only Marauders get dual-wield. Not getting dual-weild makes me not even want to play my Juggernaut anymore, and I'm 41. There is absolutely no reason why Juggernauts shouldn't get it.

fixed

[Vinxius]

*Face palm* This thread makes me want a gear/level restriction on class forums... If you are level 50 with full Battlemaster (BM) Gear and still think Marauders do less or the same amount of damage as Juggernauts then you should consider re-rolling to a class with a lower skill cap.

 

I do understand where some of you are coming from. Marauders are very gear dependent and their skill set have practically no utility. Thus, at various points pre-50 and if you are poorly geared you will suck.

 

As someone that find leveling to 50 extremely easy, imbalances pre-50 matters little to me. But for unexplainable reasons BW have a tendency to balance end-game content and PvP around the opinions of these self-centered and oblivious pre-50/un-geared noobs, so I can't help but want all of you to shut up or be forced to.

 

It boggles me how OP can have no shame complaining how he can't effectively play as a juggernaut that looks like a marauder because he did zero research before he started and just wanted to look cool dual-wielding light-sabers. Maybe I should start complaining about why I can't play a Powertech that looks exactly like a Sith Assassin.

 

The world doesn't revolve around you. A 30 seconds research would have told you Marauders don't get Force Push.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Vinxius

[beyondkilling]

Marauder's pale in comparison without any. I'm not asking for ton's of CC, I'm just saying that no force push is really really dumb.

 

dude u do double the dmg than jugs do and take more dmg even tho jugs have heavy armor you can stop talking

[Dasgruberg]

This.

 

Assassins/Shadows do just as much damage while having a metric crap ton of CC, so do Snipers/Gunslingers who do even more damage whilst having more CC too. Lets not forget the Troopers/Bounty Hunters who have as much damage whilst simultaneously being very tanky or healy WITH CC as well.

 

So... why don't Sentinels and Marauders have CC, anyone?

 

Undying rage, predation, force camo, Deadly throw,Cloak of pain, Intimidating roar (cc) did i say undying rage, wich is the BEST defensive ability in the game pvp wise if used correctly? Pro marauders are FUN to watch

[-Fal-]

Yea wouldn't want to be overpowered or anything.