On the Two Fundamental Issues of SWTOR's Success

[Blegvad]

Make a post about either of them or go count positions in the several already created posts. I'll wait...

 

This has been done to death in every incarnation of these forums and the proponents of the modern features always outnumber the naysayers.

[SlickDevlan]

This has been done to death in every incarnation of these forums and the proponents of the modern features always outnumber the naysayers.

 

Maybe, but not by a landslide. However, you miss the point. New /= better.

[Shaede]

Anakin could easily have been a very compelling character, with the right dialog and story. There are lots of good stories about a chosen one. Have you ever read Dune? Yeah, the later books fall down a bit, but the original book is amazing. Maybe it's hard, though, to turn a character you're supposed to cheer for at the beginning into a villain. Not sure I've seen that pulled off very successfully in any form, now that I think about it.

 

It could have worked. I recommend Red Letter Media's reviews on the movies if you're interested. They're extremely well done and very thought provoking (though, also very long).

 

Great writeup, and very good points. Bioware should hire you.

 

Hah! Thanks for the encouragement, but I'm afraid I'd only turn them down anyway.

 

You lost me when you tried to insinuate that some how the Star Wars universe doesn't divide nicely into factions.

 

I never tried to insinuate that at all! It does, but that's not the main focus of the story. The player is. The factions are there, most certainly, but they are secondary.

 

Your points are mostly valid, although highly opinion based, but your comments regarding "progress" and WotLK and Cata seem off base.

 

Since WotLK WoW has been losing subs even with these new and improved features. Dual spec and LFD have just as many people who dislike them as people who want them, the streamlining of the talent trees was also highly contentious and was, in my humble opinion, the laziest response ever to bloated trees and "cookie cutter" specs.

 

You may be right that SWTOR is "dated", but new does not always equal better...

 

I was careful to state that not all the changes have been positive. "Progress" doesn't always mean "better", though the mistake is often made. When I use the word, I just mean that it's moving in a forward direction. That doesn't even imply an ideal direction!

 

Nonetheless, once you've moved forward, it's hard to turn around and head backwards. It's fine that SWTOR doesn't offer the same features as WoW or Bioware's other games (everyone is so focused on the WoW thing that they seem to forget that that's only half the story). SWTOR should offer more than what was offered in 2007, though. Right now, it struggles in that department.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Shaede

[Blegvad]

Maybe, but not by a landslide. However, you miss the point. New /= better.

 

Ah, that argument. Impossible to quantify but I will give you points for clinging to the past! 2.75/10

 

 

The question here isn't IF the new features that players expect are your cup of tea it's HOW FAST can BW implement them in order to be competitive in today's market?

 

 

Answer: TBD, but I think that based upon how safe they have played it thus far they are going to have to go for an NGE style "rebranding" in order to try to recoup subs whenever 2.0 hits (especially considering that this will clearly be post GW2, etc).

[SlickDevlan]

It could have worked. I recommend Red Letter Media's reviews on the movies if you're interested. They're extremely well done and very thought provoking (though, also very long).

 

 

 

Hah! Thanks for the encouragement, but I'm afraid I'd only turn them down anyway.

 

 

 

I never tried to insinuate that at all! It does, but that's not the main focus of the story. The player is. The factions are there, most certainly, but they are secondary.

 

 

 

I was careful to state that not all the changes have been positive. "Progress" doesn't always mean "better", though the mistake is often made. When I use the word, I just mean that it's moving in a forward direction. That doesn't even imply an ideal direction!

 

Nonetheless, once you've moved forward, it's hard to turn around and head backwards. It's fine that SWTOR doesn't offer the same features as WoW or Bioware's other games (everyone is so focused on the WoW thing that they seem to forget that that's only half the story). SWTOR should offer more than what was offered in 2007, though. Right now, it struggles in that department.

 

 

So, even though you concede that "progress" /= better you still call out SWTOR for not being progressed enough? What's worse, your evidence of "moving forward/moving back" is a lack of certain WoW features. So which is it; can a game be good without "moving forward" or does a game have to reach backwards in order to move forward?

 

People are faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too humg up on which non-game impacting feature is or isn't in this or any game to pay any mind to the game itself. If you like it, I seriously doubt a lack of rehashed, marginal WoW features in the game will force you out and I doubt they would keep you in of you didn't like it. They are not game breaking, heck, they are barely game impacting. They are merely "QoL" (what a nebulous term) that a certain group of players thinks are requirements.

 

And just for the record...

-I'm not against LFD as long as its not cross server.

-I am against dual spec because it flies in the face of the entire point of specs in the first place.

 

Please make up your mind.

[SlickDevlan]

Ah, that argument. Impossible to quantify but I will give you points for clinging to the past! 2.75/10

 

 

The question here isn't IF the new features that players expect are your cup of tea it's HOW FAST can BW implement them in order to be competitive in today's market?

 

 

Answer: TBD, but I think that based upon how safe they have played it thus far they are going to have to go for an NGE style "rebranding" in order to try to recoup subs whenever 2.0 hits (especially considering that this will clearly be post GW2, etc).

 

And I guess that means you get credit for trying to spin your opinions and personal gaming crutches as "necessary".

 

P.S. Until you show me that the "pros" beat the "cons" your assertion that "more people want them than don't" is every bit as invalid as mine. I guess that never crossed your mind though...

[GalacticKegger]

SWTOR is KOTOR and Mass Effect based. WoW is Warcraft and Diablo based. They're not even remotely close.

 

There won't be an MMO featuring Avatar level models and scenes with Blu-Ray textures until every paying client's rig screams of 32G of RAM, 8x 3.66 MHz CPUs, magnetic drives and 3x 4G GPUs in SLI connected through a dedicated 5M pipe.

 

That's what single player workstation and console games are for.

Edited January 4, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[SlickDevlan]

And just as aside, GW2, supposedly the "next big thing" in MMOs is not going to have a damage meter, dual spec or LFD.

 

Huh...

[Kubernetic]

And in regard to the prequel movies, they'd have worked very well if only Lucas had let Larry Kasdan work on the scripts.

 

There's three reasons Empire Strikes Back was such an incredible movie: their names were George Lucas, Lawrence Kasdan, and Irvin Kershner. Together, they were magical.

[Blegvad]

And I guess that means you get credit for trying to spin your opinions and personal gaming crutches as "necessary".

 

P.S. Until you show me that the "pros" beat the "cons" your assertion that "more people want them than don't" is every bit as invalid as mine. I guess that never crossed your mind though...

 

I'm not trying to spin it one way or another, I've given my views earlier in the thread and that's good enough..

 

Anyway, what you're getting at is totally true: forum polls are a sloppy indicator at best.

 

What isn't hard to quantify is that they have explicitly stated that they are going to offer Dual Spec at some point soon after launch as well as a target of target raid frame. While many would argue they should have been in at launch it's clear to see that they are going to be trying to get closer to current standards rather than maintaining the experience that we've got now.

 

Capiche?

[EllipticSmile]

I agree completely.

 

I love Bioware and their games and I loved WoW for years. But every time I place a talent point in a tree with three different specs and an identical point system, or get a quest to kill/gather/click whatever I just die a little inside.

 

I wish they would have used a completely different talent/ability/stat system than WoW. I already find myself running around in circles bored. Maybe I'm just jaded, but aren't most WoW players?

 

It should have been more different. MMO doesn't have to mean WoW-clone. I'll still play the game for a while but I'm not enthralled like I have been with past Bioware games and WoW.

 

We'll see.

[Brool]

I'm gonna bump this, cause I spent a lot of time on it and don't want it to fall into oblivion just yet.

 

Cant wait for it to..

 

Really, it doesnt even matter. Tor will be around for awhile until bioware's next shiny new game comes out. Infact a long time ago I remember the devs saying Tor was going to be like kotor 456789, which is exactly what I get out of the game and I enjoy every moment Im in it.

[Umbral]

If the OP had actually played mmos before WoW, they would know that by his standards WoW was dated when it was released. This genre evolves slowly. Why? the cost of mounting a quality one means that to be successful a company HAS to offer mmo gamers the features and style of game play that they clearly have shown they like in the games that have come before. Thus why WoW was essentially just a mash up of EQ's and DAoC's best features set in Warcraft. They took the most popular features of the games previously released and MADE SURE TO HAVE THOSE FEATURES IN THEIR GAME. Sure some called WoW the REAL EQ 2, but it certainly didn't stick, and Blizzard laughed their way to the bank. A very very big bank.

 

Mmos will continue to evolve, but they will do so very slowly, and that evolution will be determined by mmo gamers, not mmo theorists. If companies keep staying in denial about this, not accepting it, and continue to try and make themselves appear innovative by limiting the amount of popular features in their games because they "don't want to look too much like WoW", then we'll continue to see the massive failures we've seen in the last 6 or 7 years. Which means the genre will evolve slower, and WoW will just keep steamrolling along.

 

Yes there will be games that follow their own path, but they will be niche market games put out by smaller companies and will have comparatively very small subscription bases. That means they won't contribute much to the genre's evolution.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Umbral

[Satpolpp]

You know, at the end of the day, if you initially loved it but got bored of it for whatever reason, we can move on to so many other things. I probably will : Aside from the 3 upcoming 2012 titles for my PC (SC2,GW2,D3) , on my 3DS I still havent touched my mariokart 7,chrono trigger, the 3 zelda games, papermario, not mentioning RE:R and Kid Icarus in the coming months, and I still havent opened my uncharted 3 on ps3. And I dont have a Wii/Vita/Xbox

 

We are so spoilt by choices nowadays that it is so not worth it worrying about one single game. It's the dev's loss if they cant make us stick.

[Swaglol]

The problem is that the initial counter-argument of most MMO forum-goers consist of the following:

 

"Casuals dont understand"

Sorry I have a life

 

"The PVP is unbalanced"

You are bad

 

"The game is dated, and has is replete with minor and major bugs."

Then unsub and dont play

 

No one wants to have a civilized conversation. I read every page of this thread and some of the responses are, although the above is exaggerated, similar in nature. There really isnt a medium anymore...youre casual or hardcore, your pro or a noob, and you want to marry BW or burn it to the ground

[Brool]

WoW never was unique.

[Skern]

Throwin' some knowledge up in dis ******.

[Shaede]

So, even though you concede that "progress" /= better you still call out SWTOR for not being progressed enough? What's worse, your evidence of "moving forward/moving back" is a lack of certain WoW features. So which is it; can a game be good without "moving forward" or does a game have to reach backwards in order to move forward?

 

*sigh*

 

Yes, SWTOR is an outdated game, but you are the one focusing entirely on the comparison to World of Warcraft when, if you look at what I wrote, I compared it to the Warcraft saga in general as well as the past 5 years of Bioware games. You could have just as easily claimed that I said SWTOR is outdated because it doesn't contain the features that were in Mass Effect II or Dragon Age: Origins. Yet you didn't because you're so caught up with the comparison to WoW that it's blocked your vision of everything else.

 

My point was this:

- SWTOR is built off the World of Warcraft and Mass Effect model back around 2006-2007.

- Both WoW and Bioware's KOTOR inspired games have continued to innovate.

- SWTOR feels stale, being only a combination of two outdated models.

 

My point was never that SWTOR needs to be like WoW. In fact, I explicitly state the opposite:

 

Even WoW, on release, was a just clone of earlier online games. It's since evolved and turned into something original (it would seem more original if it didn't set the standard for new MMORPGs).

 

SWTOR certainly has that potential, but not if it doesn't first take a good long look at itself first. Nobody wants another WoW to play and nobody wants a KOTOR with a monthly subscription.

 

Please, please be more careful about reading a post before making claims about what the author was trying to say. This thread has already been filled with too many words being put into my mouth because people just assume that I'm saying something completely different than what I wrote.

 

If the OP had actually played mmos before WoW, they would know that by his standards WoW was dated when it was released. This genre evolves slowly.

 

*sighs and points at above self-quote again*

 

WoW never was unique.

 

*deep sigh*

 

Throwin' some knowledge up in dis ******.

 

Thanks. I'm trying, but I'm not sure if I'm succeeding.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Shaede

[Dezziedc]

When you start with development, you need to start with what is available, or what you believe to be the best at the time. Considering this took what, 4 years to develop?, I would assume what they started with at the time was a decision they had to make. At the time the decision they made was probably sound. Hell, alot can change in 1 year that is impossible to keep up with. They obviously chose to add some new things from the start and drop some things that other MMOs had at the time.

 

Alot changes the world of gaming in 4 years. There is no possible way that we would be playing the game now (or in 3 years time) if they made a decision to change and keep up with everything in the world of MMOs (or any sort of gaming for that matter) that happened over the 4 or 5 years of development.

 

Just like WoW, this game will take time to build and expand upon. People need to be patient and give it time. 6-12 months should be enough to get a good indication of whether BW intend to make this game a long term investment.

 

EDIT: Your comments about the central character and the fact that BH have the "Great Hunt" title - WoW does the same thing essentially. I believe both try to make you feel like a hero in a greater world - they just go about it differently. I don't believe that WoW is less hero driven than SWTOR.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Dezziedc

[Shaede]

Just like WoW, this game will take time to build and expand upon. People need to be patient and give it time. 6-12 months should be enough to get a good indication of whether BW intend to make this game a long term investment.

 

We're on the same page. Whether or not a player chooses to continue their subscription, they should keep an eye on SWTOR to see if Bioware is turning this game into something that befits a Bioware Star Wars game. Despite what people seem to be reading from my original post, I'm am optimistic (if cautiously optimistic).

Edited January 4, 2012 by Shaede

[Maltuvion]

Posting to rate, 5 stars.

 

Ignore the fanboys and their zealous minority crowd; they're as bad as the incessant whiners. You gave an insightful and clarifying post of which you can be proud; it highlights some interesting points.

[DocVandar]

Well written post, OP, and I understand what you are getting at and agree with you for the most part. I definitely agree that TOR needs to form a more unique identity -- away from WoW -- as more content is added, and I truly believe that it has the capability to do that. Implementing aspects such as a more complete space experience with PvP and multiplayer PvE, pazaak and other mini games, continue to increase customization options (something that WoW severally lacked), and getting in guild ships would all be in the right direction of accomplishing this.

[Halfabrain]

Great post, everything you said I completely agree with lets face it it is a carbon-copy of WoW from the MMO side and like you've said its nothing different on Mass Effect and Dragon Age II (which actually feels like this game to me...).

 

I anticipated this game so highly I thought this game could be a WoW-Killer its got the fan-base and its Star Wars. I don't know if you agree but Bioware has seem to become "lazy" I mean look at Dragon Age 1 compared to Dragon Age 2, DA1 was so full of content took hours to complete had tonnes of replay value then theres DA2 which was pathetic dumbed-down and felt heavily scripted.

 

Honestly, I dont feel this game will keep me hooked for years as already people are bored of the end-game content and it does feel like alot of the end-game content was rushed I mean a lottery-based PvP system and look how horrible the highest tier PvE and PvP gear looks!

 

I know I shouldn't say this but i'm so looking foward to Guild Wars 2, this is an MMO that is looking to revolutionize MMORPG's and I hope it works because the theory of it looks amazing!

[MarcusLivius]

Best post I've read on this forum to date! (And the first one I felt compelled to respond to). Constructive, comprehensive, deeply insightful and articulate. Yes, SWTOR has issues -- but we knew it would. We'll give Bioware the chance to work on them. It's what any of us trying to provide any kind of service to others deserves.

 

A word of caution, OP: you are NOT required to respond to literally EVERY post. Please DO continue to respond to ALL posts that are intelligently written, whether the poster agrees or disagrees with you. But don't bother with the ones who only succeed in publicly humiliating themselves with responses like "TLDR". Such people have a short, little span-of-attention that will only continue to create problems for them in life. How sad for them -- they will inevitably blame these problems on everyone but themselves. These people are irritating and make this forum less fun to read. But they are worthy of our pity, not our contempt. They are already punished by having to go through life with a brain like that, so there is nothing more we need do to them.

 

For your part, keep up the good work and thanks again for your excellent thoughts.

[Oriox]

People worry too much about whether the game will be a hit or not... Just worry about how much fun you are/aren't having and call it a day.

 

In the end, the opinions of everyone on-line don't count for a damn thing.

 

People have probably already told you why you are wrong, but let me reiterate. MMOs are like political candidates. When people start to see a candidate dying in popularity, they are quicker to distance themselves. MMO customers are like stampeding herds of animals or flocks of birds or schools of fish. They exist in a realm of group think. This means they think and act together. If my friends leave the game I will leave. If the server is hard to find a group I leave the server. If ToR is failing the group, it is failing you.

 

You don't seem to understand that if you're the only one playing, Bioware will shut down the servers. If 100k people are playing, they will most likely shut down the servers. If 500k people are playing, they might bring out content but it will be slow. If 5 million people are playing, you better believe they are upgrading the server hardware and pumping out content like crazy. The number of people playing necessarily affects every person that is playing for good or ill.

 

THAT'S HOW AN MMO WORKS, NOVICE.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Oriox