Scondrels & Operatives remind me of Rangers in DAoC

[AidenPryde]

Just about all the posters in this thread don't understand why Ops/Scoundrels do the damage they do.

 

They do 5 and 6k crits because their big attacks ignore armor because they are INTERNAL damage and not kinetic, which not even tanks have good resistance to.

 

I am a level 40 Jugg and in fully Immortal spec and only have 6% internal resistance.

 

So I get crit all the time by these classes because their backstabs and such are not kinetic attacks.

[Halbe]

What's topping him from popping Evasion before he vanishes? With Avoidance Training, Evasion removes all DoTs. He can then re-open from stealth, only this time your trinket is down, and his 4 sec stun is still up. Hidden Strike 3 sec stun, Defibrillate 4 sec stun. Think you can live through that?

 

Defibrillate will do nothing, as the resolve bar will be full.

 

If you stand there like a moron, you deserve to die. With the number of AoE's in this game, you know the guy just stealthed, pull him out of it. It's on a 3 minute timer, pull him again and he's toast.

 

That would be like me blaming a healer for healing themselves. I know their going to do it, and I need to do everything I can to stop it. If I just try beating on them 1v1, blowing all my cooldowns, I'm going to die. But instead I interrupt when possible, keeping them from their bread and butter.

 

Same concept, except instead of stopping multiple heals, this mechanic is now on a 3 minute timer.

[Dusksoverture]

 

Let me explain. I also have level 400 Biochem. If you want burst then this is the profession for you due to a few items. 2 specifically.

 

Exotech Skill Stim

 

Rakata Attack Adrenal

 

Now combine that on activate(which does not share a cool down) with

 

Relic of Boundless Ages

 

Does the Rakata Attack Adrenal break stealth on use?

[Sivlar]

Scrapper 50 here

 

1- I've never ever seen a 5,2k Crit on Shoot First. Screenshot or it didnt happen. If you dont know it you can see the biggest shot youve done after a WZ. Mine is something beetween 3,2k-3,8k

 

2- If youre level 20 and Im 50 I ll two shot you. It doesnt matter if I play Shadow, Sentinel or Scoundrel. Youre dead, period.

 

3- I've NEVER killed a level 50 with Shoot first + Back Blast + Blaster Whip + 2x Sucker Punch

 

4- If we are out of stealth we are dead (no escape mechanics except 2min cooldown on vanish). Out of stealth we are very soft and unlikely to win a match 1 vs 1 if we got jumped.

 

5- Never go alone in a WZ. 1 vs 1 youre dead 1 vs 2 scoundel is easy to deal with.

 

6- If youre full Scrapper your healing sucks and its not worth casting any heal, even in combat

 

7- 300k damage and 100k heal in one WZ from a Scoundrel? Screenshot or it didnt happen.

 

8- Stuns you say? Have you ever played against a Sage/Sorcerer? Thats a perma stun combo, not ours.

 

This forum is full of cryers and liars.

 

Pretty much this.

 

There are so many horrible players in this game it's not even funny. Most people queueing for the WZ's on the servers I play on don't even have half a clue on how to play their own class let alone have any right to call for nerfing another class.

 

Lvl 50 PvP geared Sentinel/Marauders, Sorc/Sages, and Shadow/Assassins can 1v1 an Ops/Scoundrel if they know what they are doing. It just takes some effort and skill, not sitting there spamming your slash or lightning. A well played and geared Jugg/Guard can do it too. If you're not 50, you're going to get destroyed by someone 20-30 levels above you in a WZ, it's just going to happen whether you like it or not. Bolster is not going to help you against better gear, abilities and player skill.

 

BTW the 5k shoot first can happen, you just need a bunch of expertise gear, crit/surge relics, lvl50 purple consumables and the WZ power-up. We are not the only class that can do it though, Snipers/Gunslingers can straight faceroll people if they are geared out and buffed up with expertise, relics and consumables. DPS Sorc/Sages can dish out some insane numbers with the same gear, relic and consumables too.

 

What they need to do is nerf the use of the consumables and relics in PvP and tone down expertise bonuses.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Sivlar

[Digital-]

Baddy got owned by an operative and he's here to whine about it.

 

You're right. The guy in that video (who has an agenda) looked totally awesome, as a max level fully geared character, collecting every buff he could fine and then laying a beat down on level 17, 27, and 31 characters while every enemy on the map was busy attacking someone else.

 

Also, he wasn't tops on damage AND healing. I mean, it ALWAYS happens right? Why didn't he? He barely had to heal as he was largely ignored by the baddies on the other team.

 

Get a grip. You guys running a smear campaign because you got owned 1v1 are pathetic.

[DarthBaptist]

Scoundrals/Operatives are out of control

 

here's an example.

 

 

In the distance i see a guy get attacked by a scoundral. I'm a healer so i try to run to him so i'm in rage for heals. One attack got him to 72% the other to 40% and by the time i got there my teammate was at 12%. All that in about 4-6 seconds.

 

 

Suuuuuuure it's balanced, don't give me that crap like counter operative by doing XX. The fact remainds their skills do too much dmgand they have more CC than any other class.

 

 

Just face it instead of denying it.

[Digital-]

They do 5 and 6k crits because their big attacks ignore armor because they are INTERNAL damage and not kinetic, which not even tanks have good resistance to.

This is flat out false. Not even worth discussing because it is a lie.

[goulet]

the class as a whole i would say doesn't need to be nerfed, and before you cry that i am an operative and biased let's look at some things. First, the situation is overpowering versus other players, however the issues isn't damage, damage is just what stands out the most for the majority of people.

 

However before looking at damage you have to look at cc which i think is the real underlying issue. As it stands now i get almost unrestricted access to do damage to a player under the best possible circumstances simply due to cc. The cc itself is what allows you to keep doing such high damage for so long. I can open with a knockdown (+1 tactical advantage) that applies a dot and increases my armor pen by 50%. From there i can use my stun to keep you on your back, shiv you (+1 tactical advantage), backstab (reapply dot +50% armor pen) and dump 2 lacerates (from 2 tactical advantages). The entire time i do this im behind you which is what allows me to keep my armor pen so high, which only further helps that they have a lot of internal damage attacks.

 

Now lets say we address cc so players are constantly ccablle. That completely removes the ability to keep the armor penetration buff up constantly (which is a 10% increase in damage or higher generally speaking with light armor, and is obviously more affective the higher armor value you're fighting). Not to mention the targeted player can actually react and engage in tactics to help them win. Go duel an operative and tell them not to use stuns constantly and see how different it is. You can kite, bob and weave and the operative then has to constantly make sure they're facing you, and the ability for them to get behind you to use their big burst abilities becomes incredibly muted.

 

As for damage, if you look at a post cc craze game, melee needs to hit hard. They have the shortest range on their attacks, and don't have constant access to do damage relative to ranged players (who stay in range). all operative abilities are 10m range with the exception of your slow, and unlike assassin we have no in combat sprint unless you use a melee ability for a small sprint (which you need a 2nd target close to hit to catch up to your primary target).

 

ultimately damage may need to be tweaked, but if you don't deal with the elephant in the room (crowd control) first you potentially run into a situation where they A: can't catch you, and B: when they don't have adequate enough burst to be successful.

 

side note: i can't tell you how many times i see stealthed players in pvp make sure to go and grab the damage power up whenever possible. Which several people seem to overlook.

Edited January 3, 2012 by goulet

[Galloren]

Then they use their "Control Break" and hit you with their 4s stun which you don't have a chance of getting out of. DEAD.

 

I get killed so often by scoundrels/operatives in the opening stun it's not funny. 15k hp, 300 expertise and I'm dead in 3-4 seconds. This is at level 50 of course.

 

Can you explain what abilities they use to drop 15k hp in 3-4 seconds. With a 1.5 second GCD, that means at most they are hitting you twice.

 

I ask because I really want the abilities that do 7500 per hit.

[DeeJayTC]

To be honest..i´m playing Scrapper since i started playing the game.

 

With Level 50 there are some facts that are true..and some are not.

 

- 6k+ crits are possible (hitting low level players with competency buffs in warzones)

- its NOT possible to kill someone in less than 3 hits which takes at least 4,5s

- The knockdown from ShootFirst is NO STUN, people can still use shield , knockback whatever instantcast when they´re on the ground, but most people don´t know this

 

The Burst out of stealth is the only thing we have...we kill someone and can´t do anything until vanish is ready or we´re out of combat.

Troopers for example to 6k+ in the same time (3x 2k+ crits 4tw) Same for Bounts hunters.

 

 

A Scrapper can not kill a player fully equiped with competency in one single Burst.

On a player with 300+ competency my crits vary around 2,5-3k....

[Dubage]

Stunning in PVP on a whole needs reviewed. Currently the counter to crowd control is a joke with as many classes that have stuns and how liberally they are used. Its very easy to coordinate stun locking someone to death.

 

For the two classes listed by the OP its used as an I win button for just about every situation I've encountered one in. Obviously they have to have a clue about what they are doing, but its the only class that at level 50 can stun lock and kill me within seconds alone before any of my team can react and I'm a level 50 Commando with several pieces of pvp gear already.

 

This is using all my tools: escape if up, absorption shield (if I happen to have it up pre-stunn) any instant heal I can get off before being re-stunned.

 

Damage is not so much the problem for these as these classes should have great burst damage. The way stun currently works is the problem and needs to be improved before calling for nerfs for anyone. There are times I swear I spend more time stunned than I actually do using my abilities during an engagement.

[Rodskii]

Does the Rakata Attack Adrenal break stealth on use?

 

No it does not. I pop both of them before my initial opener while still stealthed.

[Rodskii]

Scoundrals/Operatives are out of control

 

here's an example.

 

 

In the distance i see a guy get attacked by a scoundral. I'm a healer so i try to run to him so i'm in rage for heals. One attack got him to 72% the other to 40% and by the time i got there my teammate was at 12%. All that in about 4-6 seconds.

 

 

Suuuuuuure it's balanced, don't give me that crap like counter operative by doing XX. The fact remainds their skills do too much dmgand they have more CC than any other class.

 

 

Just face it instead of denying it.

 

That's because the class is designed for 1v1 combat. We have no group utility. Our role is as much damage to 1 target as possible. Plain and simple.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Rodskii

[LeonKeyh]

That video with the Operative owning all the sub 50s shows a need for 50s to be in their own bracket, not for Operatives to be nerfed.

 

Did you see how much trouble he had with the level 50 Sentinel that he fought a few times?

[Rodskii]

That video with the Operative owning all the sub 50s shows a need for 50s to be in their own bracket, not for Operatives to be nerfed.

 

Did you see how much trouble he had with the level 50 Sentinel that he fought a few times?

 

exactly, that sentinel was doing a number on him. All the big crits and multi kills were against people with zero expertise and a vast lack of class based abilities.

[Reenolols]

That video with the Operative owning all the sub 50s shows a need for 50s to be in their own bracket, not for Operatives to be nerfed.

 

Did you see how much trouble he had with the level 50 Sentinel that he fought a few times?

 

Lol you didn't see that I had just chased a guy for 15sec and he was beating on me the whole time? That guy gave me no trouble, and got wrecked when i decided to open on him. If i kited his defensive cooldowns instead of refreshing them, he'd be worthless, but I knew I'd live and be able to dps through them. 50's get wrecked just as hard as sub 50's, trust me.

[Masahiko]

Lol you didn't see that I had just chased a guy for 15sec and he was beating on me the whole time? That guy gave me no trouble, and got wrecked when i decided to open on him. If i kited his defensive cooldowns instead of refreshing them, he'd be worthless, but I knew I'd live and be able to dps through them. 50's get wrecked just as hard as sub 50's, trust me.

 

Looks like a pub stomp. Rogues been pub stomping forever and a day.

[Dusksoverture]

No it does not. I pop both of them before my initial opener while still stealthed.

 

Thank you very much for answering my question.

 

I'm currently leveling an Operative (lvl 20 atm) and my impression of the class (after playing and reading through ability descriptions) is that of a Subtlety Rogue in WoW, without Preparation, Shadowstep, Sprint or Shadowdance -ie. cannon fodder after the initial opener. I might see a problem with Operative damage if they had reliable gap closers, but they don't.

[XoOKyoji]

The problem is the opener which stuns you to the ground and takes over half your HP in a single chain. Bioware has stated they will not have alpha attacks and this is an alpha attack. Furthermore, if for some reason the player breaks out of your stun, then guess what? Vanish run away and come back and gank him again when his break is on CD. Not to mention flashbang allows for a second stun after the original. People who think Operatives and Scoundrels are weak after stealth cannot properly play the class. Out of stealth I can reliably hit for 2.5-3k a hit on crit and can heal for 7k on a good crit. I have a video that shows the 7k heal crit in Eternity.

 

If you are an operative or scoundrel and you lose in 1v1 PvP then your doing something very wrong.

Edited January 3, 2012 by XoOKyoji

[Reenolols]

Looks like a pub stomp. Rogues been pub stomping forever and a day.

 

Guess I'll have to post a vid of going against a premade of 50's. Somehow i knew other Ops would find a way to say their class isn't OP, by saying I was just stomping sub-50's. Clueless community.

[Dusksoverture]

The problem is the opener which stuns you to the ground and takes over half your HP in a single chain. Bioware has stated they will not have alpha attacks and this is an alpha attack. Furthermore, if for some reason the player breaks out of your stun, then guess what? Vanish run away and come back and gank him again when his break is on CD. Not to mention flashbang allows for a second stun after the original. People who think Operatives and Scoundrels are weak after stealth cannot properly play the class. Out of stealth I can reliably hit for 2.5-3k a hit on crit and can heal for 7k on a good crit. I have a video that shows the 7k heal crit in Eternity.

 

If you are an operative or scoundrel and you lose in 1v1 PvP then your doing something very wrong.

 

Hidden Strike is a knockdown, not a stun. Apparently you can still pop a shield/knockback/whatever while lying on the ground. It also completely fills the Resolve bar.

 

Flashbang is not a stun; It breaks on damage.

[LeonKeyh]

Guess I'll have to post a vid of going against a premade of 50's. Somehow i knew other Ops would find a way to say their class isn't OP, by saying I was just stomping sub-50's. Clueless community.

 

 

 

How about this instead. Put PvE gear on and record that.

Edited January 3, 2012 by LeonKeyh

[Reenolols]

How about this instead. Put PvE gear on and record that.

 

All my pve gear has been long ago npc'd..

[Dubage]

If you are supposed to be able to use skills when knocked down then it is bugged.

[Masahiko]

Guess I'll have to post a vid of going against a premade of 50's. Somehow i knew other Ops would find a way to say their class isn't OP, by saying I was just stomping sub-50's. Clueless community.

 

I look forward to then seeing this video where the team leaves you alone the entire time when you open on one of them. Maybe we should nerf snipers too they do damage when you leave them alone.

 

Im just not one to scream Operative is OP because of the opener burst damage and playing against people who have little to no idea how to play their class after 3 weeks let alone how other classes in this game even work.