Recent actions against some customer accounts

[dingoperson]

Hell, people in this thread DEFENDED that, because they defend anything that Bioware does.

 

This is a petty and small-minded accusation. Please don't poison the well with regards to the motives of others in this way.

[Amnolith]

And so the downward spiral starts.

 

Stephen btw any idea on when you are going to update the forums from a 2+ year old version to the latest? If I am not mistaken people have been asking for a search function for 2 weeks...what is holding you up?

[chizhik]

This brings up more questions than it answers.

 

How am I to determine if my farming is "resulting in the game economy becoming unbalanced"? Are there clear guidelines as to how many credits per hour I'm allowed to produce via container or mob farming before my account is warned or temporarily suspended? How far should my character move so I'm not considered "exploiting" respawning nodes?

 

Also, SWTOR Rules of Conduct (http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/roc) state that players "may not engage in any conduct or practice that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account." How many credits does Bioware consider "inappropriate" for a level 34 character? May I purchase higher level items from GTN and save them for future use or would that constitute "item loading"?

Edited January 2, 2012 by chizhik

[Zones]

Stephen, I'm sorry but you are just wrong. You can't suspend or ban a person for breaking your game. Next time, make a better game. This just makes me sick. Keep this up and your game is going to fail. You and Rift can hang out together.

 

This a joke? I expect a person who goes out of their way to cheat to be punished.

[Excedrin]

You can't have seen many forums then, and you have done nothing to raise the standard of this thread, instead bringing continuing sourness and mock-insulted behaviour.

 

The exploit was the looting of the chests, indirectly aided by other players trading the node which made the chests respawn faster.

 

It is plain idiocy to not see that this is exploting a flaw in the design of the game. The equivalent World of Warcraft TOS that blanket covers all exploitative behaviour is: "Using errors in design to gain a competitive advantage over other players". By definition this was an error in design as it will be fixed. I am pretty sure these is an equivalent TOS clause for SWTOR.

 

Oh, you post something like this and I'm sour. Right.

 

What exactly is so hard to understand? Fail grade school or something?

 

 

 

 

Is it really that hard to put it all together? He said it just fine.

 

"There was an exploit that allowed players to obtain the loot from chests on Ilum faster than was intended, leading to trouble with the economy and a source of credits for credit sellers. These players were banned for using this exploit."

 

Hey, I just came up with a better way of phrasing it off the top of my head. Can I have money now?

Edited January 2, 2012 by Excedrin

[Zones]

Because you should not punish the user for the maker's mistake.

 

Because a person accidentally leaves the door unlocked someone shouldn't be punished if they go in and steal everything, or wait in the house to murder the owner when they come home?

 

Your logic is asanine and makes me depressed about the state of humanity.

[Vrachara]

Well first off has nothing to do with slicing. It has to do with looting the containers which anyone can open. Second didnt you just read what he said? He said you can go slice there all you want they dont even ban people who now and again loot the containers. They only banned people who were camping the things.

 

So it's the player's fault that they were interacting with items in the intended way? Where in ToS does it say "you can not loot the item at the same location more than x times per hour"?! Where in ToS does it say "you may not interact with the items in the world in the way we intended, in the way we don't like"?

 

If you don't like something, fix it. You have the tools, you have the ability and an MMO is a game where people are used to things getting fixed when they get overpowered. Hell, remove the items obtained if you feel it was done unfairly. But a ban? For the developer's incompetence? Hell no.

 

Hi EA - I was kinda hoping to not see your face around here.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Vrachara

[Excedrin]

Because a person accidentally leaves the door unlocked someone shouldn't be punished if they go in and steal everything, or wait in the house to murder the owner when they come home?

 

Your logic is asanine and makes me depressed about the state of humanity.

 

The difference is that we all know that robbing someone is explicitly illegal. It's not even close to the same.

[Zones]

The difference is that we all know that robbing someone is explicitly illegal. It's not even close to the same.

 

If someone thinks flipping a zone to instantly reset the nodes and make infinite credits, regardless of the characters level, is not breaking any rules they need help.

[Excedrin]

This is a petty and small-minded accusation. Please don't poison the well with regards to the motives of others in this way.

 

I backed down and said oh, well that's more sensible when confronted with something that was... get this... sensible.

 

Meanwhile, my intelligence, social standing, and other things just get insulted because people have nothing better to contribute. Just like this one, right here. I'm sorry if you can't follow the thread of the conversation, but it's not my responsibility to make sure you know what you're responding to.

[Excedrin]

If someone thinks flipping a zone to instantly reset the nodes and make infinite credits, regardless of the characters level, is not breaking any rules they need help.

 

When have I taken issue with this? Do you guys just like misrepresenting everything I say?

Edited January 2, 2012 by Excedrin

[dingoperson]

This brings up more questions than it answers.

 

How am I to determine if my farming is "resulting in the game economy becoming unbalanced"? Are there clear guidelines as to how many credits per hour I'm allowed to produce via container or mob farming before my account is warned or temporarily suspended? How far should my character move so I'm not considered "exploiting" respawning nodes?

 

Also, SWTOR Rules of Conduct (http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/roc) state that players "may not engage in any conduct or practice that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account." How many credits does Bioware "inappropriate" for a level 34 character? May I purchase higher level items from GTN and save them for future use or would that constitute "item loading"?

 

Let's say that 100 ways to make money in this game are the equivalent of 100 different chests. As it happens, when you open one of these chests it gives 100x as much money as the other chests. Every time. Nobody seems to have noticed.

 

What you really ask is, is there a way to know in advance if this is somehow exploting a design flaw, or just playing the game as it was intentionally designed?

 

The answer is no. Or: you should know it when you see it, and if there's any doubt a perm-ban is very unlikely.

 

This is standard MMO fare people should have gotten used to years ago. No game is different. Not even EVE Online:

http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2608&tid=1

[Unaki]

So it's the player's fault that they were interacting with items in the intended way? Where in ToS does it say "you can not loot the item at the same location more than x times per hour"?! Where in ToS does it say "you may not interact with the items in the world in the way we intended, in the way we don't like"?

 

If you don't like something, fix it. You have the tools, you have the ability and an MMO is a game where people are used to things getting fixed when they get overpowered. Hell, remove the items obtained if you feel it was done unfairly. But a ban? For the developer's incompetence? Hell no.

 

Hi EA - I was kinda hoping to not see your face around here.

 

Again look for the words exploit and "Ruining economy" in Stephen's post.

[Excedrin]

Let's say that 100 ways to make money in this game are the equivalent of 100 different chests. As it happens, when you open one of these chests it gives 100x as much money as the other chests. Every time. Nobody seems to have noticed.

 

What you really ask is, is there a way to know in advance if this is somehow exploting a design flaw, or just playing the game as it was intentionally designed?

 

The answer is no. Or: you should know it when you see it, and if there's any doubt a perm-ban is very unlikely.

 

This is standard MMO fare people should have gotten used to years ago. No game is different. Not even EVE Online:

http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2608&tid=1

 

The chest was, in theory, not supposed to contain 100x the amount of money. It was, however, supposed to be there and in fact respawn. I mean, your example has nothing to do with this case.

[JSykes]

They can if the player breaches the EULA we all agreed to.

 

And a court of law says otherwise. Hmm... Federal Law or Biowares EULA/ToS... wonder which would win....

 

 

 

but on a happier note, it's good to know they left it very ambiguous so w have no idea if what we're doing is wrong or not.

 

 

Second, a smaller number of accounts were warned or temporarily suspended for exploiting loot containers on Ilum. To be completely clear, while players may choose to travel to Ilum earlier than the recommended level (40+) and may loot containers if they can get to them, in the cases of those customers that were warned or temporarily suspended, they were systematically and repeatedly looting containers in very high numbers resulting in the game economy becoming unbalanced.

 

In high numbers, what does that mean? Were they speed hacking to loot more then physically possible, or were they just doing what some of us normies do and run the route of respawns and pick up the chests as they spawn. Got to love it, even after the game launches, you'd think Bioware has some classified information they can't reveal with the way they talk, it's impossible for them to give a straight, honest and concise answer.

[Jarlathe]

Your bias is showing, watch out.

 

That WoW has a much better economy? That their auction house is much better and maturer at this point? Yes, I understand the game is new, but coming down like this doesn't bode well for those of us that like to play the market.

 

The wow economy is totally screwed up, I haven't played since august but when firelands came out and for months afterwards the epics were selling for 60-90k. I was lucky to have 30k across all 6 of my 80-85's.

 

You are not forced to buy anything at that price. You don't need it to be competitive. I promise you, 99.9% of all players have no reason to min/max on that scale. My rogue, which was my main, used the mount hyjal rep necklace well into Firelands as nothing would ever drop for me. The was no reason for me to ever spend 15K on the don waun necklace. I'm not in a world first or even server first guild.

 

People who "play" the auction house literally make things unaffordable for the average player since those sums of money are simply not obtainable by "doing dailies".

 

Again, there is nothing on the AH that you need and would not be able to get from a guildie. Every guild I know of, from the truly social to the hardcore raiding guild, has at least one crafter that can make what you need, and generally for the cost of the mats. I just finished gearing my restro shaman to take advantage of the LFR tool. I bought nothing on the AH because IMHO it was all over priced for what I want to do. The 378 BOE cloak was over 3K on my server. Why would I buy that when I can just wait out the one in WoE to drop?

 

Don't get me wrong, I have mixed feelings about this. One part of me is very happy they won't allow "GTN Barons" but the other part of me feels it is wrong to keep people from being able to maximise their profits.

 

Again. It all comes down to you really don't "need" what is being sold on the AH. It's a want and a way to save your time. You pay a premium for that service, just like anything in life.

 

While I understand some of the complaints however, I will always go to the side of the average player who plies their craft and tries to make a profit off it not the person who obtains so many credits the price of "unique" items gets completely unobtainable.

 

Again, I'm starting to sound like a broken record, you don't need anything "unique". You want something "unique". There is a huge difference. I want a Porsche, I don't need a Porsche.

[Unaki]

When have I taken issue with this? Do you guys just like misrepresenting everything I say?

 

If you weren't so adamant on remaining ignorant to everything while trying to shove your crap on everyone, we wouldn't have anything to say.

[Zones]

When have I taken issue with this? Do you guys just like misrepresenting everything I say?

 

I quoted a guy who said it's always the developers fault, not the cheaters, when an exploit or bug is found and abused and gave a real life example detailing how he was wrong.

 

You came in and said I was wrong because everyone knows it's against the rules.

 

I asked how anyone could possibly think constantly resetting nodes wasn't breaking the rules and you act like you're being persecuted.

 

If you are incapible of understanding why Bioware was 100% correct in the action they took I don't know what to tell you.

[Bdatik]

And a court of law says otherwise. Hmm... Federal Law or Biowares EULA/ToS... wonder which would win....

 

Have to love this argument. Go ahead and take them to court and see what happens. There are things the TOS/EULA can do and things it can't do. Revoking your access to the servers is a thing it can do.

[Zones]

That WoW has a much better economy? That their auction house is much better and maturer at this point? Yes, I understand the game is new, but coming down like this doesn't bode well for those of us that like to play the market.

 

 

 

You are not forced to buy anything at that price. You don't need it to be competitive. I promise you, 99.9% of all players have no reason to min/max on that scale. My rogue, which was my main, used the mount hyjal rep necklace well into Firelands as nothing would ever drop for me. The was no reason for me to ever spend 15K on the don waun necklace. I'm not in a world first or even server first guild.

 

 

 

Again, there is nothing on the AH that you need and would not be able to get from a guildie. Every guild I know of, from the truly social to the hardcore raiding guild, has at least one crafter that can make what you need, and generally for the cost of the mats. I just finished gearing my restro shaman to take advantage of the LFR tool. I bought nothing on the AH because IMHO it was all over priced for what I want to do. The 378 BOE cloak was over 3K on my server. Why would I buy that when I can just wait out the one in WoE to drop?

 

 

 

Again. It all comes down to you really don't "need" what is being sold on the AH. It's a want and a way to save your time. You pay a premium for that service, just like anything in life.

 

 

 

Again, I'm starting to sound like a broken record, you don't need anything "unique". You want something "unique". There is a huge difference. I want a Porsche, I don't need a Porsche.

 

I'm not even going to reply to you point for point because it's a waste of both of our times. Your entire argument boils down you "You don't NEED anything off the AH, therefore you shouldn't be upset that people have made everything completely unaffordable regardless of how you save up through legitimate means."

 

I'm playing a game, this isn't real life where I simply will never be a CEO riding a different porche to work every day. Things shouldn't be completely unobtainable because of gold buyers or people who run an addon 24/7 to constantly buy low and resell or undercut people by 5% to run them out of buisness.

[Excedrin]

If you weren't so adamant on remaining ignorant to everything while trying to shove your crap on everyone, we wouldn't have anything to say.

 

I'm not remaining ignorant. I'm not sure how often I can say that this makes sense. Do I need to put it in big bold yellow letters too? Or are you just taking issue with the fact that I don't think everything Bioware touches turns to gold?

 

That there are a ton of people in here not understanding it suggests he didn't do a good job of conveying the information he meant to. If he did, people would have understood clearly and they wouldn't have posted. That's all I'm saying at this point, aside from pointing out where people are making logical errors (even if their conclusion has been right). Maybe in the deep recesses of your mind you think people posting have some external agenda, but let me assure you they freaking don't for the last time.

 

I really thought these forums would get better once it was shut off to subscribers. How wrong I was.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Excedrin

[Makk]

Is it possible to repeat a quest from the class quest storyline? If so, how?

 

Thanks

[Excedrin]

I quoted a guy who said it's always the developers fault, not the cheaters, when an exploit or bug is found and abused and gave a real life example detailing how he was wrong.

 

You came in and said I was wrong because everyone knows it's against the rules.

 

I asked how anyone could possibly think constantly resetting nodes wasn't breaking the rules and you act like you're being persecuted.

 

If you are incapible of understanding why Bioware was 100% correct in the action they took I don't know what to tell you.

 

I'm starting to think you aren't even completely reading my posts.

[Leggomy]

Have to love this argument. Go ahead and take them to court and see what happens. There are things the TOS/EULA can do and things it can't do. Revoking your access to the servers is a thing it can do.

 

Federal law has nothing to do with this game. Bioware can refuse service to anyone for any reason. They can make arbitrary decisions on what is or is not an exploit. This is all in the ToS everyone signed when they made an account. So yep makes me giggle also when people who like to exploit the game start talking about suing.

[dingoperson]

The chest was, in theory, not supposed to contain 100x the amount of money. It was, however, supposed to be there and in fact respawn. I mean, your example has nothing to do with this case.

 

I think you just failed to understand the analogy. I will explain it in detail so the probability that you fail to understand it again is lower.

 

The game has a number of ways to make money. These are actions to take, paths to go down, ways to play, that each return some cash.

 

My analogy used 'chests' in place of 'ways to make money', and 'opening chests' as an analogy for 'pursuing the action', and 'finding money in the chest' as an analogy for 'getting rewards from the set of actions'. 'Finding 100x the cash in a chest' is therefore an analogy for 'Getting 100x the rewards from doing one particular thing in the game-world'.

 

I hope this made the analogy easier to understand.