Sorcerer / Sage skills promote playing badly

[Aidank]

By badly, I mean that it's often beneficial to completely ignore the majority of the skills that you have.

 

And note that i'm only talking about the madness tree, I haven't thoroughly tried lightning so i'm not going to comment.

 

These numbers are the tooltip values from my 40 madness sorc, in the 40 pvp gear set. The numbers may change a little by 50 but I think scaling should be constant. We don't have combat logs yet so there isn't much else I could go off of.

 

 

Creeping terror: 1020 damage / 18 seconds / instant

 

Affliction: 970 damage / 15 seconds / instant

 

Crushing darkness: ~ 500 damage + 750 damage dot / 8 seconds / 2 second cast

 

Force Lightning: 1650 damage / 3 seconds / channeled

 

Shock: ~700 / instant

 

Lightning strike: 600 / instant with proc

 

 

So what do we see here? Compared to simply spamming force lightning, our dots are rather pathetic.

 

Lets look at it in terms of Damage per execute time

 

CT: 680

AFF: 650

CD: 625

FL: 550

Shock: 466

LS: 400

 

What this shows is that our spammable filler move, force lightning, has a damage per execute time that rivals our dots. (Just to compare, in world of warcraft, in 4.1 shadow priests dots had a DPET about 2-3 times higher than their mind flay)

 

And then when you consider things like alclarity rating, cleanses, and the fact that few fights even last 18 seconds it looks like in most scenarios simply spamming force lightning nonstop would yield more damage than actually bothering to apply your dots, something I think is sort of outrageous.

 

 

This means that really, the only time when a dot class would actually want to apply their dots is when they're being beat on and can't channel force lightning without being interrupted.

 

 

TL;DR

 

Basically, force lightning does way too much damage in comparison to our other skills.

[Aidank]

Bump, I would really like some discussion on this.

[Aiha]

You are absolutely right DoTs should do more damage, but still using only FL will be not very efficient, since when casting DoTs and than can do some more instant or cast damage you will do almost twice damage than using only FL. If i understand your argument correctly.

[shazzyrm]

The dots are a little weak but I find them useful to get adds down that my companion is attacking whilst I deal with another. That way they don't all agro on my companion to much.

[Cryptoling]

Shouldn't this be a class forum issue? I agree with you tho I mostly play a healer. i would like to see more value to keeping up DoTs. I honestly forget they are even there when I spec into Balance on occasion for PvP and have my TK throw with no CD.

[Aidank]

You are absolutely right DoTs should do more damage, but still using only FL will be not very efficient, since when casting DoTs and than can do some more instant or cast damage you will do almost twice damage than using only FL. If i understand your argument correctly.

 

No, I'm talking about damage per execute time, it takes 3 seconds assuming no alclarity to do one force lightning, and it takes 1.5 seconds ( 1 global cooldown ) to apply affliction or creeping terror.

 

 

But even though force lightning takes longer to do, it does far more damage in that three seconds than any of our dots do over their entire duration, so much so in fact that it's barely even beneficial to use dots even if it's gaurenteed that they will tick their full duration, however, in most scenarios they won't be ticking their full duration, making it pretty much pointless to even apply them.

 

Shouldn't this be a class forum issue? I agree with you tho I mostly play a healer. i would like to see more value to keeping up DoTs. I honestly forget they are even there when I spec into Balance on occasion for PvP and have my TK throw with no CD.

 

Nobody really uses the class forums so I decided to post it here.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Aidank

[Aiha]

Ok than we agree 100%

[Myrmedus]

Can't say about the Madness tree but the Lightning tree is quite varied and quite a few skills do actually promote micro-management such as the CC and healing of the class, however in your original post I definitely see the issue there.

 

Personally I think some of the weaker DoT abilities don't necessarily need a buff to damage but simply have their cooldowns removed. That way they're something you pop on the target between things like Force Lightning to add a bit of additional damage. Personally, I think that's what DoTs should be not the ridiculousness that was the Aff Warlock and Shadow Priest in WoW where 3-4 of their DoTs would overkill PvP geared players by 50-100%.

[Xukuth]

Uhm.. Sorc's don't need a Buff they need a nerf.

[Aidank]

Can't say about the Madness tree but the Lightning tree is quite varied and quite a few skills do actually promote micro-management such as the CC and healing of the class, however in your original post I definitely see the issue there.

 

Personally I think some of the weaker DoT abilities don't necessarily need a buff to damage but simply have their cooldowns removed. That way they're something you pop on the target between things like Force Lightning to add a bit of additional damage. Personally, I think that's what DoTs should be not the ridiculousness that was the Aff Warlock and Shadow Priest in WoW where 3-4 of their DoTs would overkill PvP geared players by 50-100%.

 

In the madness tree we get a skill that removes the cooldown on force lightning, so pretty much we can spam it non-stop, and that's what many madess sorcs do.

 

And I agree, that Dots shouldn't be doing all of our damage, but as it stands right now I'm generally doing better in bgs if I simply don't bother to apply them, I'm thinking about making a video where I only use death field, force lightning, and crushing darkness to take advantage of the instant procs. It's a little bit ridiculous to say the least.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Aidank

[Myrmedus]

Uhm.. Sorc's don't need a Buff they need a nerf.

 

He's not talking about buffs or nerfs but adjustments to playstyle.

[Myrmedus]

In the madness tree we get a skill that removes the cooldown on force lightning, so pretty much we can spam it non-stop, and that's what many madess sorcs do.

 

And I agree, that Dots shouldn't be doing all of our damage, but as it stands right now I'm generally doing better in bgs if I simply don't bother to apply them, I'm thinking about making a video where I only use death field, force lightning, and crushing darkness to take advantage of the instant procs. It's a little bit ridiculous to say the least.

 

That's a bit crazy, I didn't notice that talent. I don't think that talent should exist to be honest, especially since the ability slows the target aswell.

[Cryptoling]

Uhm.. Sorc's don't need a Buff they need a nerf.

 

If you actually read the post it isn't about buffing, it's about balancing. it's about tuning the abilities with each other so there is a reason to use DoTs and have a real rotation. The point he is making that the current tuning is teaching people to push 1 button to win without any real thought involved. That's what I gathered from it anyways.

[Aidank]

Uhm.. Sorc's don't need a Buff they need a nerf.

 

If we moved the sorcerer playstyle away from simply spamming force lightning it would make the class significantly more complicated and less "fail-proof" in pvp.

 

It probably be a nerf for the majority of bad sorcerers.

 

That's a bit crazy, I didn't notice that talent. I don't think that talent should exist to be honest, especially since the ability slows the target aswell.

 

It's only 3rd rung so the vast majority of hybrid specs pick it up as well. But it's pretty obvious for madness that it's supposed to be our "filler" spell, meaning it should be at the bottom of our priority list (sort of like a shadow priest's mind flay from World of warcraft). However, for some reason they decided to make it stupidly powerful.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Aidank

[Ashes_Arizona]

Madness tree really did come off rather weak in release. It simply cannot even compare to the Lightning tree in any respect.

 

I suspect this is something they will adjust as time rolls on here.

[Suzina]

Wrong forum.

[Pyrolight]

Well just looking at the base stats of the spell the first 2 dots are better then 1 force lightning (3.0 seconds used for both in casting/cooldowns) assuming the mob lives for 18 seconds.

 

That third dot is awful though.

[Invitcted]

Does FL proc a death mark charge? If it doesn't the Creeping death talent and death mark will bump up your dots over FL by a noticeable margin.

 

Also are you talking about pvp exclusively or pve and pvp?

[Aidank]

Does FL proc a death mark charge? If it doesn't the Creeping death talent and death mark will bump up your dots over FL by a noticeable margin.

 

Also are you talking about pvp exclusively or pve and pvp?

 

Yeah, all of our periodics consume death marks, including FL.

 

And i'm talking about just in general, except for boss fights this extend into pve as well but is a more noticeable problem in pvp.

[Lord_of_Stone]

DOTs are instant cast and low on force power. Coming from a sage healer level 44 whose had to solo the last 3 planets, those DOTs are a life saver in boss battles. No fights lasting more than 18 seconds? I can tell your still on nar shaddaa.

[Aidank]

DOTs are instant cast and low on force power. Coming from a sage healer level 44 whose had to solo the last 3 planets, those DOTs are a life saver in boss battles. No fights lasting more than 18 seconds? I can tell your still on nar shaddaa.

 

Try reading my original post, I'm talking about the madness tree (I think balance is the sage equivalent?).

 

And madness has a talent that restores force every time we cast force lightning, so we can literally spam it indefinitely.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Aidank

[Lord_of_Stone]

Try reading my original post, I'm talking about the madness tree (I think balance is the sage equivalent?).

 

And madness has a talent that restores force every time we cast force lightning, so we can literally spam it indefinitely.

 

Not indefinitely, it costs force power. granted not much compared to how much the sorcerer gets. However, there are easily other abilities you can throw out given the situation. Throwing a instant cast DOT to deal MORE damage while your lightnin' him up is great.

 

Also, the opposing tree that isnt healing has great buffs for damage. Removing 1.5 seconds from lightning CD is alright and all.

 

Also, balance/madness is the shared tree, assassins/shadows have it too.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Lord_of_Stone

[Astasia]

FL isn't a periodic, it doesn't proc Paratism so I don't think it should proc Death Mark nor should Creeping Death effect it.

 

It is a stupidly easy skill to spam though. No CD, low force cost, and Sith Efficacy basically cutting that low cost in half making it almost free. There's really not much reason to do anything but spam FL on everything, no matter how much health it has left.

[Hobbess]

Do not forget the Death Mark when using your calculations.... It causes your next 10 periodic damage abilities to do 20% more damage. Combine that with using the proc with crushing darkness and that is a lot of damage.

 

I find the DOTs useless for weak/standard enemies, however when using them on on anything stronger I find that the battle ends far more quickly.

 

That being said, I do find the DOTs to be weaker than many equivalent DOTs in other MMOs. You almost need to have affliction and creeping terror on the same enemy to get the amount of damage you supposed to.

 

Also does anyone notice that the 2 second stun on creeping terror does not seem to effect most mobs let alone someone in PVP? The stun/interupt this should cause is one of the reasons I chose madness.

[Aidank]

Do not forget the Death Mark when using your calculations.... It causes your next 10 periodic damage abilities to do 20% more damage. Combine that with using the proc with crushing darkness and that is a lot of damage.

i was under the impression that it effected force lightning as well, but even our dots proc rather quickly (once per second for crushing darkness) and that would consume the 20% bonus before most of your dots are done ticking.

 

I find the DOTs useless for weak/standard enemies, however when using them on on anything stronger I find that the battle ends far more quickly.

 

That being said, I do find the DOTs to be weaker than many equivalent DOTs in other MMOs. You almost need to have affliction and creeping terror on the same enemy to get the amount of damage you supposed to.

For the most part I agree, I hardly feel like i'm playing a dot class.

 

On fights that do last a relatively long time (elites mostly) the dots become beneficial, but in fights with multiple targets or any pvp the dots are nigh useless.

 

Also does anyone notice that the 2 second stun on creeping terror does not seem to effect most mobs let alone someone in PVP? The stun/interupt this should cause is one of the reasons I chose madness.

It's a 2 second root, not a stun, and I haven't really been having any problems with it.

 

Not indefinitely, it costs force power. granted not much compared to how much the sorcerer gets. However, there are easily other abilities you can throw out given the situation. Throwing a instant cast DOT to deal MORE damage while your lightnin' him up is great.

It restores 3% of our force for every time we use force lightning, which would 20 force for a sorcerer, and I think we regen some 10 force per second? Possibly more, for us force lightning costs 30 force so my force bar doesn't change while i use force lightning

]

Also, the opposing tree that isnt healing has great buffs for damage. Removing 1.5 seconds from lightning CD is alright and all.

Madness contains a lot of damage buffs outside of the 3 seconds cd reduction on FL, and it has a lot of buffs for our CC. IMO it's the superior tree but that isn't really what this thread is about.

 

Also, balance/madness is the shared tree, assassins/shadows have it too.

Yes, but it's a far different play-style for assassins considering the range on the spells.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Aidank