Your quote is as horrible as it is true -- strange to look back on all the excitement we felt that day back in Oct. 08...

Absolutely you can. You personally may think it unreasonable to make these comparisons, but you do not have the same viewpoint as all players everywhere. Clearly, many MANY players did expect many of the features found in WoW to be in TOR at launch. Whether you agree or not, it has definitely hurt TOR in the long run to launch without a lot of these things. It would NOT double development time to add in things like moddable UI, group finder, xserver functionality or server transfers, better guild features, etc. These are all things done by teams OTHER than the main content development team. We know TOR had a dedicated UI team during development (look back at the Friday map update that caused such a ruckus); they should've been working on the customizable UI that we got in 1.2 for launch. Group finder and Xserver functionality have nothing to do with in-game content and definitely could've been done by people on another team. Guild features are the same way. All of these things should have been in the game at launch. Once again, you personally may not feel it is appropriate to compare a new release to a game that has been out for 7-8 years, but too bad. People have/do/will make that comparison. Players (well, reasonable players at least) are willing to accept a small amount of end-game content at launch -- to expect otherwise is ludicrous. But they are much less willing to wait on things that are considered basic features. Here's the problem, your argument (which is made by many people, i just chose yours at random) is flawed due to money. There's no way BW/EA has made their money back on this game. They don't make $60 on each sale, they make a fraction of that for anything sold through a retail store (which is at least half of their sales of the box so far). Add to that the ongoing costs of employee pay and server maintenance and they're also not making $15/month off each player in profit -- revenue yes, but not profit. They're still in the red on this game and will be for some time. A company is willing to ride it out when something is growing and they can see its benefits as a long-term investment. TOR, however, is NOT growing at the moment and that just means less and less money coming in. EA's history with these types of situations is decidedly stacked against BW/TOR when it comes to this and so many of us are concerned about how things will change if accounts continue to go down. With less money coming in, more devs will be let go and less time will be put into this game. You say they have plenty of time still, but many of us are worried that they do not. We're not "doom and gloom" (well, not all of us) people, we're realistic and many of us want this game to succeed. As subs continue to decline, the chances for that success go with it.

You do realize there are only really two attack types and two damage types, right? Just multiple names for them. So in that respect, it is much simpler than many other games that have 4+ damage types. Your real gripe is a secondary issue -- the fact that the devs believe they have balanced tanks in pvp by making certain classes able to ignore much of their armor/shielding. That's entirely separate from what BW did with creating the attack/damage types in the first place. It comes down to balance and BW seemingly being afraid that tanks would be unkillable damage machines -- ask any Immortal Juggernaut if they feel like an unkillable damage machine. Much of that, however, comes down to the Immortal tree and issues with it compared to (say) Tankassins. My point is you're complaining about damage/attack types but your real gripe is a balance issue.

Check my join date here on the forums -- believe me i'm a long-haul type of person myself. I'm just worried about how well this game can retain players because of decisions the devs have made. You cannot discount PvP in this game as I'm sure many of the subs they've lost so far were PvPers. The devs even admitted they weren't ready for this game to be as popular with PvPers as it was at launch. They made mistakes in that aspect of the game and lost people because of it. While you may not care about pvp, lost subs hurt a game in the end, no matter who those players are. Well i've only been through Coruscant twice, so maybe it's just better on multiple playthroughs than DK. It's funny you bring up leveling with a buddy, because i've leveled all my characters on my main server with my girlfriend. We play together all the time, matching classes to make the progress easier/faster. It's not a problem to plan out where you're going to go with guildies or friends -- so i don't see how that in any way impacts the fact that there should be options for where to level up. A new class does bring some differences, but killing 8 guards while i click on the 3 power generators is not that different if i'm slinging lightning or laying down blaster fire. Of course, these things are all just my opinion, but i'm enjoying the debate/conversation. Once again this defense is presented. It's not 2005 or 2004... You cannot compare the launch of TOR to WoW in this way because the game market was very different when WoW launched. The MMO market especially was different then. WoW has changed the MMO market and developers have to be aware of that and understand what it means. TOR had absolutely the smoothest launch i've ever seen for an MMO -- it was unbelievable actually. Yes there were queues, but compared to the number of free weeks of game time i got from Blizz in the first couple months after WoW launched, it was nothing. Now, aside from that, however, TOR was/has been lacking in certain areas. Each major patch has helped alleviate this (UI customization, more character customization, group finder, etc) -- but these are things that should've shipped with TOR. In 2012, developers have to be aware of who they are competing with. I'm not one of those people who thinks TOR should've shipped with as much endgame content as WoW has, that's just ludicrous. But the features and game elements should've matched what has become the industry standard because it's just expected due to competition and how the MMO market has changed.

Could be something new... My first instinct is to see it as concept art for the exterior of the Foundry. I cannot find any images to support that, but i get that feel from it. If it is something new, i'm sure it's either a Flashpoint or Operation probably in 1.4.

This ^ Not because the smaller group will be destroyed, but because of the lag that would be created as soon as a massive battle broke out on the fleet. Just 200 people standing around can make for some serious stuttering, let alone effects from attack animations, etc. It would be an absolute slideshow.

Again, i really don't think there was that big of an issue of ex-SWG players expecting the game to be SWG 2.0. BW made it clear for years (Literally years) that TOR wouldn't be a sequel to SWG and would be vastly different in almost every way. I'm sure there were some players who wanted SWG and quit because they didn't get it, but i think your guess of 1 million players is WAY off. At most i'd say half that many had the issue you presented. You seem to be making the "give them time" defense like many others. In theory i agree with your point. I'm a rational person and i recognize the fact BW has admitted they made some mistakes and are trying to make the game better in important ways (re-approaching open world and large-scale pvp for example). But i'm also realistic enough to know that they just don't have the kind of time they need. As i said before, there is just too much competition in the market for other MMOs, especially other games with a focus on pvp *cough*GW2*cough*. How you can go through Coruscant 9 times and still enjoy i just don't know. I played the Mass Effect games twice through and the first Dragon Age through 5 times -- i can't even count how many times i've played through games like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night or some of the older Legend of Zelda titles (my point is that i'm all for replay). But i've done Dromund Kaas about 8 times and after the third time it was just a grind. The problem is that there's no real alternative. In a game like WoW, you can choose a different zone most of the time while leveling so that your 6 characters only had to do 2 zones three times each. In TOR, my 6 Imp characters ALL have to do DK, then Balmorra, then Nar Shaddaa, then Tatooine, etc... That is just a bad design, plain and simple.

No, what i'd like is for leveling to have taken longer. I didn't race through but I hit 50 after only about a month and there just wasn't a lot going on at that point -- especially because I like PvP and BW failed with Ilum (but that's another issue altogether). What i'd like is for the leveling process to take a couple months at least (should be more like 5-6 months for the first character for someone who is a moderate gamer) and for it to include more class content. They pushed Legacy and that playing alts was a form of end-game content even before the game was released. But that only matters if leveling an alt is interesting and fun. At most, it should've been 50/50 between class and other stories/missions -- perhaps more like 70% class story and 30% other story. They pushed this game so hard on story, and in many ways they blow away every other MMO i've ever played in that department, i won't pretend they don't. But with so much focus on it, there are just too many flaws in the end result.

You had excellent points, right up until the line i underlined for you. I absolutely agree that the vision of the developers in many respects was excellent. The problem is not the players, however, but in the execution of that vision. Class stories are awesome, but all the other missions that make up about 80% of the game is pretty good the first time, ok the second, and approaching godawful by the 3rd+ time you play through it. Leveling is too fast and consists of too much world/random missions rather than deeper and more expansive class missions. The PvP you describe is nothing more than an idea as literally no aspect of it can currently be seen ingame. PvP concepts are great when you're 2+ years out from release, not 6 months into the live game. They royally dropped the ball with Ilum and no one knows how long the scramble to repair it will take -- but the damage has been done and PvPers know they have a lot of other options out there. You can defend the developer's vision for the game all you want, and i'd say you are wise to do so. The problems lie in the execution of that vision, however, not in how the players received it.

Seven years ago, an MMO developer had the time to let a game mature (I'm thinkin' WoW here). This is 2012, not only is WoW still an MMO juggernaut, but Rift has a solid fanbase, Tera just came out with GW2 and TSW both waiting in the wings. BW didn't have time to just let this game mature after release and they knew that just like the players did/do. Yes, players are willing to wait for certain things (new content mostly -- such as new Ops, Flashpoints, WZs), but not a lot of things. The 1.2 UI should have been in at launch, group finder should've been in at launch, all of the current end-game content should've been in at launch. You cannot compare this game to what WoW had at launch, because WoW didn't have to compete with nearly as much content in other games as TOR does (mostly from WoW and its installed player base). BW doesn't have time to just take its time and iron out the wrinkles, because too many other games are breathing down their proverbial necks. I really enjoy this game -- but even playing at launch on a full server with a queue every night, it didn't really feel like an MMO. Leveling up had too much of the grind of an MMO, but being out in the world seemed off somehow. Maybe it was all the instanced areas or the linear progression without any options for leveling in other areas... but the "MMO" feel of this game has always been off.

Tankassins have much greater DPS output than Immortal Juggs. If you want to deal serious damage, you're going to need to respec Veng or Rage (which one is up to you, your preferences, and how you want to play). Immortal Juggs are not useless in pvp -- but they are not DPS. An Immortal Jugg is one the best Huttball carriers in the game, fantastic for holding a choke point until backup arrives, and probably one of the best CC and harassment classes in the game (you can really drive people nuts). But your damage is not going to be amazing, so sadly you won't be the kind of threat that a Tankassin in DPS gear is.

Every class has quite a bit of CC (Immortal Juggs arguably have just about the most CC in the game). Every class has an ability to release from CC like Unleash -- they are all on a 2 min cd. It's completely fair the way it is and no need to throw things off. Sith Warriors are doin' just fine without another release, you just have to be careful and be smart in how you use it.

It couldn't be a hack since it's on your side. If it was some kind of CC hack, you'd have blown your cooldown and it just wouldn't have affected him. What you are describing is clearly on your side so it's a bug of some sort. Try to recreate if you can, look for common element (like Guard or certain class, etc) and submit a ticket if it happens again.

Hotkey that jazz -- clicking and then targeting is bad form. I'm not one to argue about keyboard vs mouse turning, etc -- but this is one area where using a hotkey really DOES make a difference because sometimes you only have a second between coming unstunned and death. Using a keybind lets you get that pass off, clicking almost certainly does not.

This... just so much this!!! Rooted at fire trap, guy jumping up and down as far in the end zone as humanly possible, well outside my pass range -- happens all the time.

Technically, it's BioWare (OP was wrong, but so are you)

1. Realistic estimates put it at $150-200 million in development, with probably another $50 million in marketing, etc. 2. NO way have that made a positive ROI. 3. I have no idea if it will go F2P -- I just hope the devs and BW will do what is necessary to keep the game healthy and make it thrive again.

Ok, i never mentioned the movies. I was talking in terms of this game and what the designers/developers have clearly chosen for visual distinction between the factions.

Simple robes/cloaks = Jedi. More elaborate designs/armor = Sith. It's an aesthetic choice meant to make the factions look different. I do think there should be a few more robe/cloak options for Sith, but mostly it's a non-issue by 50, since there are at least a few options available. Right now i'd just like to see BW show us some concept art for future armor assets in game that look good, and not like something from a different game/genre/universe.

Also reports of ninja change: Weekly PvP mission seems to give 300 comms of each type now, not 99.

He already answered this: revert same-faction PvP to ONLY Huttball. Right now, it seems BW is planning on making Alderaan (as they always said) into same-faction as well, which means there really will be ZERO benefit to choosing Republic over Empire. Their solution to the faction imbalance was to make sure it didn't matter, which is ultimately destructive and a poor solution. When Imperial players (such as myself) complained about only seeing Huttball, BW should've suggesting rolling Republic characters, not making it so Imp only WZs would be more diversified.

It's been like 5 days. Surely we can talk about what happened more constructively than all of this... sheesh.

In Rift they are adding a new faction and basically letting players choose which one they want for the Conquest pvp (I believe it ignores the existing two so that players aren't stuck one way or the other). That's kind of what i was thinking. The Hutts would work well, because you could imagine a Sith joining forces with them to further his own goals, or a Jedi falling to the Dark Side and secretly working with the Hutts. It would require some suspension of disbelief, but it might still be worth it. Of course, as pointed out above, there may still be major engine limitations that make this entire idea moot. I just know a lot of PvP players want 3-faction action and it seems like their options for it are increasing, but only outside of TOR.

Don't worry too much about endgame pvp when you're just starting out. There's a decent chance that classes will have changed by the time you get there. Right now, pyro powertechs are very strong in PvP -- but that could easily change through nerfs and such.

Obviously, but we know their solution for that -- server transfers in 1.3. Once they do that, however, they need content for people to keep subscribing, especially if the grass seems greener on not just one but 2-3 other sides (so to speak).