BS. 99.5% of players dont even read the forums. Id expect most of them dont even realise forums exist.

No, the missunderstanding comes from people who dont understand that wz numbers =/= effectiveness in all cases. dot dot dot dot dot, aoe.

What cds? Sorcs have none! Revive does not have a cd.

Truly pathetic isnt it. Honestly I'm tempted to go and post in every other classes thread saying "I pay an X, I feel OPd, skill cap is too low". Well, I would but tbh its so lame I just can't bring myself to. So, so lame. Hopefully BW cross ref forum accounts with ingame to weed this out. If you dont have a 50 in the class, your opinion is ignored (as 1-49 is so diff from 50).

Agree that player makes the class. But a good player with a good class still beats a good player with a bad class on average (ignoring hard counters). Lots of people think balance is not needed cos they know a guy who knows a guy whos amazing at class X. Exception does not prove the rule and you cant balance around the top top top players as they are usually fighting people lots worse than them.

Gratz on reading fail. I was actually just pointing out that the balance comment threads posted in the class forums are being abused by people posting who do not (or at least claim not to) play other classes. Oh also this thread is about sorc/sage heals NOT "OMG HELARZ ONONE!1". +1 tho, great post.

Dont worry guys. We have nothing to fear now the devs are getting feedback from REAL PLAYERS of the class. For example this average player of the class: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4900116#post4900116 With reliable, unbiased feedback I'm sure balance will happen. Excuse me I have to leave now to wash my hair.

50 bm/wh rage/immortal hybrid, PvP only: What others think of my class: One trick pony (smash), simple to play, relatively balanced. Not top dps numbers but viable and a good dps contributor with decent utility (taunts, intercede, mezz). Most teams would usually prefer PT/Marauder for dps. What I think of my class: Pretty good contibutor to PvP. Die a lot compared to marauders and tanks but good burst and aoe. Extra utlity makes me less 1 dimensional than other classes and my smash is more reliable than pure rage as Im specced up to unstopable (also means people waste cc on me). Overall nice spec if a little unchallenging to play.

I play 2 specs in PvP (I dont PvE). 50 aug WH sorc. I spent about 70% of time in spec 1 and 30% of time in spec 2. Before 1.2 I was full heal spec. Spec 1: Lightning/Madness Hybrid 1. How do you think your spec is perceived by other classes? This spec is an annoyance to other classes, I do moderate damage, have a lot of cc but am incredibly squishy. Initially Im thought of as a free kill and get 3/4 melees on me instantly, a few bubble stuns later and Im viewed as ignorable and not a high threat target. Other sorcs will instead be the main target. 2. How do you perceive your own spec? Doesnt do big damage, doesnt have much durability. But at least there are some tools for survival (which other sorc specs totally miss). Certainly seems wrong that I have to spend the entire game kiting but still do a lot less damage than classes that have massively better survivability. The spec takes lot more thought to play than other classes Ive played in PvP, this seems to be common for sorc specs tho. Spec 2: Corruption/Lightning Hybrid (cant go full corruption as not pvp viable). 1. How do you think your spec is perceived by other classes? Other classes immediately notice me as a healer. This means I get a constant trail of 2/3 melee tailing me. The only reason this spec is viable (over full corruption) is the extra cc from the lightning cross. If a determined melee player decides to kill me, they will. They know this, I know this, anything I do just delays the inevitable as they know I simply cant heal/mitigate enough of their damage and that my ability to kite is too limited to genuinely get away. Best I can hope it delay enough so they get bored and switch targets. 2. How do you perceive your own spec? Annoying. I dont feel like I have the tools to do my job. If I kite, I cant heal. If I dont kite I get melted crazily fast. I feel like Im forced to go hybrid (losing the aoe heal) as the extra cc is the only way healing as a sorc is viable. When left alone I can put out silly numbers for healing (almost comparable to full corruption) however its only bad teams who leave a sorc alone. The moment focus happens (and people have realised you cant leave sorcs alone) my healing is destroyed. I have 1 (2 if you count the tiny heal from purge) heal I can cast on the move, the healing from this is a joke and wont even negate damage from 1 melee hit. Everything other heal is a self root usually with an animation that shouts "interrupt me". It seems that the class is intentionally designed to be easy to shut down as there is nothing you can really do whilst kiting but you cant take damage either. Honestly, it sucks. Apologies for overun on this comment but too much wrong to list in 3 sentences.

Fair point however I doubt EA or BW would agree with you given the massive investment theyve made in this game. I expect their aim is widespread appeal rather than esports which is an extreme minority. MMOs given their longterm nature and huge cost tend to be intended for the biggest slice of the market possible and catering to an elite doesnt tend to promote this.

Devil is in the detail.

Problem is that currently BW claim to be relying on their metrics for balance (with no elaboration on what these metrics look at). In contrast balance discussions on these forums centre around class mechanics (fair) and case studies eg "I know this guys whos amazing" (not reliable). Given that bioware have already made the decision to disclose that they balance around metrics. Id like them to reveal exactly what metrics they use. I think discussion of what metrics are looked at would be very valuable and they may get a useful perspective on why their current metrics are not perfect. This is something that the community can really help BW with, without much as risk of bias as "nerf X", "buff Y" discussions. Numbers are great for measuring stuff. Problem comes when you are looking at the wrong set of numbers / based on the wrong data. My suspicision is that BW's metrics are overly simplified and miss-targetted. If we are a player base and bioware togther can discuss the numbers being used, we may get somewhere. As it is, player arguements get derailed by exceptions and bioware's metrics are not transparent enough. Both of these need to change.

After a long time of non-balancing (which I accept may be the case ), you are right. However I thought this would be too much of a stretch for this forum, where 99% of people cant even tell an exceptional from a statistically relevant fact. If the game is tweeked rapidly with the aim of balance, which is not the case currently, normal distibution is the way to balance, I am talking here about the best way to do balance. Not the way bioware are going currently which is the standard failed MMO path of devs saying "lol L2P" and will soon turn to "oh c**p we are losing subs lets make panic changes". Main point I was making is that no matter what the scenario, you completely missunderstand the point by holding up exceptions as the "proof" of balance.

Seems to be a prevalent problem on these forums leading to a missunderstanding of pretty much all balance arguments. Let me break down some simple life facts for you people to aid in this discussion template (which is repeated at least 20 times a day): There will always be a distribution of skill The skill level of the population WILL follow a normal distribution for EVERY class on EVERY well populated server. For the less informed of you this means there will be far more average players than good/bad and far more good/bad than very good/bad etc etc. To deny this is frankly, wrong. There will always be outliers Beyond this normal curve there will always be outliers. This comes from the population size. At the very top and bottom end of the curve there are not enough in the sample to be representative hence, exceptional people can achieve exceptional results. Balancing around these outliers is stupid Ill come to this. So, what is the point of an online game? To have fun? A PvP game, To have competitive fun? Doubt many would disagree with this. To have competitive fun what do we need? Top of my list is a level playing field to test where we lie in the skill distibution (ie test your skill). What is the best way to ensure the playing field is level? Well, imo the best way is to take a sample of a large data set. Coming back to point 3: The fact that you know one guy (out of millions who play this game) who is amazing at class X does NOT prove class X is amazing. It either proves the player is amazing despite the class or that the player is amazing with the help of the class. You have no objective way of proving which is the case. This is why using exceptions as proof of rule is completely stupid. You do not know what you are measuring. The game should ONLY be balanced around the top quartile (or even top 10%) of players based around the fact that these are statistically very competent players with a large enough sample size to be statistically relevant. Next time people post L2P in a thread, consider this. Are you saying L2P based on an outlier (ie anecdotal evidence) or do you have more to base it round than that? The idea that no balancing is ever required and that everyone needs to L2P in every situation is just stupidity disguised as arrogance. Of course this game needs balancing, every game does. To shoot every arguement down with the supposed "killer point" of L2P just show that you missunderstand statistical relevance. Nothing else.

Funny thing is, that youve been arguing against "us" the whole time but this is exactly what I think we need too. A minor tweek to either mobility or a def cd to increase the playability of the class. Sorcs shouldnt out burst ops (as they have the highest potential output anyway) but neither should they be the squishiest, least mobile AND the easiest to shut down. All the posts saying L2P just throw outliers around. Yes, some players are utterly exceptional (I dont claim to be because Im not a 15year old with self esteem issues like some people in this thread), however to balance around outliers is tbh, idiotic as anyone with an education can tell you. Using the exception to prove a point is pure stupidity. Balance around the top quartile (even 10%), not the top 0.1%. Its common business sense and will be the reason why when this gets tweeked.

Epic thread. +1

Not sure how many times Im going to have to post this... I have a BM/WH Jugg and a WH Sorc. My background is in healing (with some rdps), 10 years across multiple PvP games. Ive won a lot of tournaments in these games and no, have not played WoW as its not my type of game. Generally I am a crappy mdps player and one of the top healers in every game Ive played, I wouldnt describe myself as the best player in the world (Im not that type of guy), but all the facts point to a top 5% healer in multiple games. Thats some context for you. Now. In THIS game. Im suddenly awesome at mdps and finding playing my healer an exercise in frustration. I *can* perform at healing but only against poor players who ignore me. Against good teams I am either a free kill or I run in circles for the whole game doing nothing of much significance except making some mdps wear out his s key. This flies against ALL experience. How can I be really bad at the healer class (at which I generally excel) but awesome at the mdps (which I generally suck at). I think there are 2 possible conclusions (of which one is FAR more likely): 1/ My skillset has randomly changed for this game only, defying all previous experience 2/ The healer class (for sorc/sage) is not on a level playing field with the mdps People who are good, who have played both dps and healer KNOW that sorc/sage healers are pretty messed up right now. The people who keep posting L2P are for the most part DPSers who want an unfair advanatge / dont have any concept of how fked up it is or people who only play healer who think its fine feeding on scraps. I play both. I know how easy it is to kill a sorc/sage on my (worse geared) jugg. Please, do not play the L2P card here. You are wrong. YET AGAIN (noone has managed to even come close to answering this yet): If we are a turret class, why do have no def cds, why are we in light armor If we are a kite class, why do all out heals have casts/channels Answer the above points and we can have a proper discussion (I guarantee noone will, its much easier to disengage your brain and type "L2P").

Kite when heals are all channeled and/or hard cast? The class is FORCED to turret heal to do anything. Yes you can run in between heals but you sure are hell arent healing whilst you do.

Problem is, for lazy people, its much easier to post "L2P" than to listen and make a rational assessment. For people with low self esteem, they get a lot more from posting "I am awesome so you must suck" than from making a rational assessment. For people with vested interests, they will never admit the issue as to do so would erode the crutch they lean on Between the 3 views above, and yes, also the opposite (ie. cases where people ask for uneeded nerfs/ buff just to get their own class improved), it is next to impossible to have a balance discussion on an MMO forum. Hence why the views of people who play multiple classes are more valuable than single class players, they generally have less bias so a couple of the pitfalls above are missed.

BS. Half the sentinel pop are rerollers to FOTM. They will simply play their old class again. BW will be making balance changes, you wait. Noone can ignore a 30x class imba in RWZ. Not even BW.

No, it wont. The complaint about healing sage/sorc is nothing to do with output. It is 100% to do with playability/viable heals. Output is absolutely fine. Unfortunately many figures cannot give a full picture of viability and in some cases can actually mask problems (eg aoe damage < single target, dot < burst in many cases). Acid test is RWZ class composition vs win ratio (ideally cross server), nothing will beat that in showing which classes are performing and which arent. Thats why this thread is valuable, numbers are interesting, nothing more, counts are VERY interesting. *edit* Not saying I dont want to see the hps data btw, it would be interesting (more data is always better). Point is just that either way, wont prove anything conclusive. Counts on the other hand.... will.

Yeah, I understand your point of view. How could a discussion be anything but whining right? I mean you can't even QUESTION balance or game mechanics without it being a whine. Obviously. Of course just posting over and over again about how awesome you are is WAY more constructive and in no way reflective of the posters self esteem. Heres a nice thought for you, If I'm "asking for favortism" doesnt that contradict the fact that I play a jugg AND a sorc? Favoritism for what? Im saying 1 archetype I play is overpowered and one isnt. Pretty balanced if you ask me. Which is far more than can be said for the "L2P" crowd. L2discuss, L2read, L2beobjective. Take your pick.

Hi, As you may know there has been a lot of discussion about the PvP viability of sages/sorcs healers post 1.2. With 1.2 (and now 1.3) the removal from the game of the procced accelerated cast for the big heal has caused the class to become very stationary when healing which obviously, as the squishiest class ingame, affects viability in organised PvP. Can you confirm what the development direction is for this class?: - Is the class supposed to be a turret healer as the stationary casts imply? - Is the class supposed to be a kiter, as the cloth armor and lack of defensive armor implies? Currently noone doubts the class's potential output is good but the viability of that output is very much in question for PvPers. I would really appreciate your input on the intended direction.

Great, we can all admit its possible to be immature. Still dodging my points tho, L2P is easy to say. Point in question: Why am I "bad" and need to "L2P" on my sorc healer (despite 10 years of experience in PvP healing and prior success) compared to my jugg (an archetype I generally do not excel in). L2P? "bad"? All easier things to toss out than actually tackling the points raised.

If you are honestly saying a 14k sorc healer has no problems: 1/ You/He is lying 2/ You are playing the worst set of PvPers known to man 14k hp sorc healer is a free kill to any concious dps class. Either way, if I am so bad why am I magically good when I play my smash jugg? Must be something incredible in the logic process that makes me hit keys differently eh? Jugg = BM/WH half aug Sorc = Full aug WH I still win on my sorc but I have to play a stupid spec and play my a** off. On my jugg I can just face roll and Im still 75% as good as when I actually try. Tbh some people get a perverse satisfaction from the point of view of "I play the class and its fine, you must be bad". Perhaps its a way of increasing self esteem? I dunno. All I can tell you is that ive played a healer at high level across multiple games for 10 years and always been one of the top PvPers on whatever server Ive played. Im not naturally a good mdps player, I freely admit that, and yet in this game Im suddenly awesome at mdps and crap at healing? Something doesnt add up. Sorc is broken vs good players and the ranked stats show. Doesnt mean it cant physically be played by good players. Its balance after all we are discussing, not whether some people can play a bad class to a level above its average.