Agreed, someone hire this guy as an idea man. This may be going somewhere finally. I still think it takes too long for the DoTs to do full damage for the spec to be perfectly viable, but this would help the other issues the spec has.

How does it truly stack up with HA armor bonus and shield vs the bonuses Maras get? Serious question. -I completely understand defensive roll is a huge deal (30% vs AOE) -20% of 5% is 1% DR on the shield (so...who cares sorta) -Maras have 4% overall, duration increase to their 20% DR Skill (Which pretty much makes it last the full 30) in the tree itself. -Juggs get 6% vs Force attacks. But where does the armor difference stack up in that in terms of mitigation? And in practice given it doesn't work vs everything?

Am I a bad person for being okay with this? Like I enjoy being an unkillable node cap stopper with a healer who is also unkillable while we almost-literally pelt people with feathers and run them out of CDs...till they finally die out of boredom? Of course rateds it's sort of retarded, given it comes down to whoever Trans/Predate + Sin Speed/Rolls to the objective first wins. To be honest, I couldn't get Smash spec down till I played a Sent, now that I know it it's pretty decent in regs and rateds (and do about even damage to my Sent oddly...), and I'm finishing min maxing my gear just because I now know how to play it. Veng has always been excellent but inconsistent (I so far agree with all of the ideas presented, but I am in no way an expert in the spec). But I still like being that unkillable/takes forever to kill node guy so I stay in my tank gear and tank spec 75% of the time. It's just more useful to even PUG groups who know how to work with a tank. But, lets say they nerf healing to get rid of the current nothing happens fest in rateds. Can/should we consider that in the Jugg questions? If they knock say, 25% off healing - I don't see the Shield+DPS gear cutting it as well, nor the full tank being as wtfunstoppable unless you got 4+ DDs on you (and even then...not much dice).

Interesting. I could easily see doubling both as is (or 15% for Plasma Blades as in 1.3) for JUST PvP and it would make it a more playable spec. Not so sure/sold on the heals, but a better set of meaningful ticks on the DoTs would make it more worth it. Ironically were talking about a whole 9%, but I think coupled with the better heals I've heard about it could be more viable. Given the way stats work and how they changed in 2.0 (Crit and Surge specifically), was Watchman better off with the old way the stats worked? Keep in mind I've only been here since April - not that this game was all that difficult to pick up, I just wasn't here for the old stuff so I have no point of reference.

You're still missing the basics. Made a long post so I spoilered it: Watchman does not have a short burst capability, and it takes at least 6 GCDs to really ramp up well to where its more comparable, and by that time the fight should be 75% over. I would ask though, as I wasn't around for the golden age of stun bubbles, what was different in 1.3 with watchman?

Watchman is just not built for PvP. Save pounding solo on a double healed Op, you just do not have the opportunity for the DoTs to do their work, as fights do not last long enough for them - not to mention the ability to keep your stacks so the DoTs are even more useful. Single target damage has to be high DPH, or high burst within a 3-12 second window to be optimal/truly effective. Watchman relies too heavily on longer fights due to both DoTs and Stack issues to be effective (not put numbers on the scoreboard, but be effective to the field). Add in the ability to cleanse and vs smart opponents, this spec is dead in the water. I have a guildmate who swears that Watchman is much better for 1v1s or defense, and myself and multiple others have been proving him so wrong since Friday, he's finally learning to utilize combat better and actually learn focus spec. Sure, you can use it as is - and you can troll regz all day in it, but it's not as effective as Combat or Focus due to the design principal of the spec. In talking with SLC, I do think you could decrease the tick time in PvP (IE, same damage, less time it takes to get the damage done), and do something about the stacks (they last longer, whatever) and make the spec more comparable in PvP. But at the same time, Im okay with this. Watchman is good for tank and spanks, Focus is good for aoeing trash/PvP. It's a balanced class even if the specs aren't balanced across the board.

I'm going to make a counter argument: Devs, keep it this way. Players on Bastion, keep it this way. You're driving the PvPers who transferred back to their original servers, even if it's just on their alts, and were getting more queue pops due to it. Thanks! -Scrub on a PvE server

The amount of side-taking in this thread is hilarious. When will the Pot5 vs Bastion stuff happen? Those responses are always good. Does the candidate: -Understand and have knowledge on all three specs, in PvE and PvP? -Have more than a pulse so that they can facilitate a good discussion on what to bring up to the combat team? -If a lack of either of the above, have someone to help them out with it if they're stuck? Anything past that is fluff and entirely un-needed for the rep spot - and comes off as a wankfest. We may need to do a poll of who is the prettiest, strongest, best, and most popular of each class however, since that has so much interest.

Pretty much stated how a lot of the concerned citizens feel man. Yes, we love the PvP, but it's got flaws. It's like that really messed up S/O you can't break up with. Sure, they've got a drug problem (Bolster), their schedule is insane (Queuing), fancy dates are pretty much the same as hitting McDonalds with more quality company (Ranked), and they go off on you about insane things at random times and get abusive (Bugs & Class Imbalance issues). But they're great in the sack and overall you enjoy the relationship and companionship (Good Battles). May not be the one to marry, but it's not a horrible relationship you want to get rid of for now, unless things get worse.

I'll wait till you send me more childish PMs first. Keep em coming scrub.

No, but I certainly can. You sure you want it? I'm currently out of diapers and pacifiers to hand out so you're gonna have to take it like an adult if I do.

Pairing down your responses. Not impossible. Other games have done it. I think either works, but right now multiple tree choices across multiple classes fall into the "Defeated by all" RPS scenario (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=664103 is a good example). If were all agreeing the class needs a buff (with the exception of the skorebored heerows) - what does it need for PvP? More damage? More utility? More defense? More CCs? I don't think Skarl or I (or others) are expecting ONLY the sorc class to be rebalanced. We are talking PvP only here though, as Sorcs seem to "good enough" to "just fine" in comparison for most of PvE's content. Really the whole of the classes and specs need to be reviewed for balance. And by no means would any rational person want the class to be overbalanced or see another bubblestun scenario. I wasn't around for that, and I've seen videos - I would have moved onto another game due to that, that's dumb as hell on the devs to have kept that around as long as it did.

I'm pretty much there too. I'm not seeking for the class to be better than the Sniper (for comparison's sake) in pvp, Im looking for the class to be as viable. IE, bring an equivalent amount of Attack/Defense/CC/utility/Strategy to the table as all of the DD classes. They should be different in style, and bring different things to the table (One has more CC but less DD type things) - but be as viable, ie can replace a sniper with a sorc and be just as effective. At this time, Sorcs fall behind and cannot do so. It's not the only class with this problem too. Ideally, I'd like all of the classes to be able to bring to the table same amount as the others in pvp - ie class balance. Doesn't matter which tank you take - just a different style. Doesn't matter which DD you take - just a different style. Doesn't matter which Healer you take - just a different style. I'd even take the balance other games have where each class fulfills a specific role but each is needed/wanted to do the PvP well/correct. I've seen games where each ranged DD was viable on an even-ish level, just they dealt damage in different ways (More DPH vs DPS, More useable and needed utility but less DD, More DD but less survivability, etc). This game is very out of whack PvP wise and is missing a lot of balance points. Only reason I'm harping on Sorcs so bad is I actually have a fully leveled and geared one (well not full min max conq, but min max partisan with some conq) who is now a crafting toon - because I see no reason to play it other than to heal an odd Op or FP because the other healers are out for tacos. I'm a PvPer - I play PvE for funzies, but mainly I do PvP. And the sorc class is not as viable as my other choices.

That's uhm...weird. Toggle Ataru on and off and then make sure you have enough Focus to use the skill. After that I've got no clue. D/L fraps and record the issue maybe?

Bad snipers are constantly self rooted. I can kill those on my Sent all day. The *********** smart ones who know when to move and reposition are a terror. Each warzone has amazing key spots for this, with Civil war being the least preferred on the side nodes. Maras you pretty much hit the nail on the head, I really wanted to play a ranged class for once so I picked the Sorc as my first toon, and now I'm playing a Sent to compete better (I just didn't like the Sniper - I tried, I really did.) I agree on not tripling, and most of the smarter pvpers do too. But the less smart or utility minded people who just want "moar skorebored" would pick a mara or sniper. And well, the PvP community as a whole is not really known for it's brainpower. I'd prolly take the rage jugg or concealment op myself (I forgot to mention rage jugg, I just kinda expect the Tank in these to be a jugg who is a respec a holic with two sets of gear), and was just musing pure DD with optional utility. DPS sorc could work for sure, but at the same time...there are much better options, and thats where I'm ticked off. Exactly what you mentioned - never the first. Possibly the last slot if the composition needs it. That's just not acceptable to me. I still wonder if BW thinks the balance is "Well they can respec healer!". Million dollar question. Breaking down the roles, ideally the DPS sorc fits into the ranged category, so you're comparing them to snipers. What do we expect out of the snipers? 1. Stealth Tactics 2. Single target damage 3. Some aoe damage (interrupts mainly, but depends on spec) 4. Anti leap target 5. Anti CC ability 6. Multiple CCs 7. lolroll tactics 8. Wall/roll bang exploit 9. Lack of need for peels Where do you feel the sorc compares to the utility and damage style that the Sniper brings?

The spare point usually goes into stagger or swelling winds, I usually go with stagger for what you stated. Issue is there is no where I'd take a spare point out for an extra amount of time for that, given its such a minor increase vs the benefits of other talents to dump points into. It's a worthwhile skill for some stalling techniques and for setting yourself up, however there is no where else that you'd want to lose points from - those 45 are *needed*. I've tried goofy ideas like doing two points in Hand of Justice, one point in Saber Screen, etc - it's not worth the loss. Also, and this may be something *I* need to personally work on, I don't use leap that often in this spec, although I should in order to use the set bonus buff. There is no real set rotation for PvP in this spec. There is combos (which should be obvious), and a lot of them mirror what you do in PvE. Mostly it is about proc'ing blade storm properly. Past that is just spamming attacks and hitting dispatch whenever its available, and setting up Master Strike on Precision window. In PvP I rarely bother with Zen Master strike, keeping them rooted longer for others to deal with them isn't a bad thing unless you're trying to get them down a bit faster. But thats me, and it may be wrong. But, the aspects of note of the spec, and why its great for huttball goes beyond movement speed buffs and being about to OOC heal your centering up. You can always slow people with dual saber throw, but in this spec you also importantly have: Root with Crippling Throw Movement CC break with Camo More awe usage Immobilization with Master Strike Those can be key to some huttball wins, as you're able to deal with the carrier without white barring them easily, defend mid with more awes, and get back to mid faster breaking the movement debuffs with camo - and OOC heal your centering up quickly to Trans somewhere. Concept overall is you're able to cover more ground and stop others from covering ground while when the RNG gods smile upon you putting out some heavy single target damage. I also can't remember the last time I used normal swing in this spec, as I always seem to have plenty of focus (Whereas in focus spec, at odd times max once per Wz, I may need it to build a tiny bit of focus). It's not as tanky as Focus, but it makes up for it in melee classes losing you easily while you strafe or move to another target.

Have to spend a talent point into it. Usually it will dump in your next open slot in your quickbars (goes by order of the quickbars, so if it dumps into quickbar 3 and you dont have it active, you wont see it). If you can't find it, check your sentinel skills section of the skill menu. Expect it to be grayed out if you dont have any focus.

His bible is for PvE. PvP you want: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bcZhGMRRrRrrIR.3 With the last point being debateable. vs Ranged, the whole "Most players" you need to consider that most players are bad. Good players can kite you, out defensive you, and control you. Be the one in control. Force Camo, and don't blow all your defenses right away, wait them out and use them vs the right skills. I got better at killing snipers by playing one - learn to use the field to your advantage to kill their LoS, and force them to move to hit you, rather than to avoid you. Have a counter planned for their defenses, and force them to use their defenses. IE - control the fight. Coercing them to white bar you and then stun breaking it is even better. Also, use force kick and pacify more. I realize someone else said that, but more people need to be reminded. In many mirrors, I win purely based on actually knowing where the pacify skill is.

The issue is more team support than a DD that can put out similar or better numbers. THAT makes the class a poor choice. Everything is viable at a basic level, but its the point of "More viable" "Very viable" "Preferred" "Optimal" is where the sorcs get the shaft. Balanced classes it should be more about group makeup and playing well individually and together, not a few classes are more viable for the roles needed. I think its a matter of, on equal playlevel and gear, which would you take into a ranked warzone for your last DD slot, keeping in mind you already have the Tank/Double Heal/Double Mara/Double Sniper setup that many seem to love and prefer (wrong or right): Mara Sniper Sorc Merc Powertech Sniper Op Sin -Most would pick a mara or a sniper. (Which I don't agree with - you've got the DD, pick up some more utility) -Some would pick the Sorc or Op so they could respec for Voidstar, or pull/roll for huttball. -Some take the Merc for heals (kinda) on respec and grapple. -Some would pick the sin for stealth and node guarding, and then realize the double healer setup from the Op is better. -Some will pick the Powertech because they feel bad for the player choosing to play a powertech. In the case of the sorc, you're choosing them for utility...in two warzones. Not because they're awesome DDs, but for heals on Voidstar defense and a one trick pony in huttball. In three other zones? An equally skilled and geared other DD would be a better choice just due to pure survival ability (BH is debateable tho...poor guys). Call me a dreamer, but I'd like it if the other classes spec'ed as DDs could be switchable in the 2 Mara/2 Sniper slots, and be just as effective as them.

You have now inspired me. But, I'll be honest - its not fun destroying clueless PvErs over and over. I don't understand any enjoyment in that personally. The PvPers vs PvPers epic fests with some clueless PvErs trying to help was entertaining for about 30 minutes last night, then I realized I should probably be productive.

I couldn't watch past 4 minutes in, the amount of bad play by both sides made my brain hurt. If you're gonna post bad pvp videos, make sure its on a level of trainwreck so it's at least entertaining. DPS Sorcs are very viable...vs bads. Many things change in the 55 queue as well.

Walnuts hit a lot of good points. Here's the thing, when you keybind you get more attention to this, and more ability to do so. In PvP (and PvE out of habit...) my right mouse button is almost always down, so I can mouse-look move and utilize it to strafe. Go take a few, even on the fleet, and practice your circling and going back and forth inside an NPC (Simple strafing techniques). Try it without hitting any skills with keyboard turning. Then try it with right click and WASD. Then With WA D. Then with just W (you literally don't need more than W, but I still used ASD on and off). After it becomes a bit more natural, its WAY quicker and WAY more efficient. You cannot do that as a clicker. Now add in skills (even just dry firing them). You can't really do this well as a clicker (really, at all), but you can as a keybinder. Ideally you want to be able to strafe and swing constantly. Combat is actually an insane spec with this, if you hit the skilled Trans and just strafe the hell out of other melees, they really can't keep up with how fast you move around. In terms of watching your GCD, your best options are to make floating windows of those skills, and place them somewhere together, or near your attention span. I have a box for all of my main attacks that sits on the bottom left, I know some people that do a row at the right, I've seen a row of them at the top, etc. Ideally its to group them all up to glance at to see two things: The skills' CD, and the GCD. That gives you one area to glance at quickly and make a decision of what to hit. Honestly the rotation is somewhat so standard, but at times so chaotic it doesn't really matter if you do it in perfect order in PvP. I also have an extra floating row of three that are not keybound (theyre duplicates) right on top of my toon - it has Riposte, Dispatch, and in Combat spec, Precision slash. They are only there for a quicker eyesight so I know to hit them cause they are ready or just about off CD. They're really not needed with my bottom left box, but it's comfortable for me. Its not really about being ahead of the GCD, its about freeing up your pointer to right click for strafe and look, click enemies, and gives you the ability, attention span, and time to devote to everything else instead of moving your mouse to a skill. Until it becomes an automatic thing (I have a feel for when the GCD is done now, like my brain has synced into 1.5 second-ish thinking, usually I'm hammering my next skill before GCD is done), you're essentially looking at every GCD: Mouse Clicking: GCD Timing What is off or coming off CD Moving your mouse to hit the skill Hitting the skilll Keybinding: GCD Timing What is off or coming off CD Hitting the skill. Thats one less thing to do/concentrate on, that frees up your mouse to look, strafe, or click people. Mostly, look and strafe. Although you can group your clicked abilities well so that you don't have much mouse movement, at times its still a bit of a distance away unless you want severe clutter. Personally I'd rather be able to hit Medpack, Stim, Trans, Blade Storm in under a second WHILE strafing - and I cannot do that being a mouse clicker, especially if the skills aren't right next to eachother. Even PvE can be too chaotic to have your skill windows arranged perfectly for every situation - PvP is nuts.

This one isn't! http://www.swtor.com/community/search.php?searchid=4171032 Use the advanced search function too to search only the guardian or jugg forums too. People get irritated by these threads because it really is easy to just use the search function, read a bunch of threads, and answer your own questions. (In case you get lost, Strength and power till you hit 50hms or 55hms because mitigation from gear at low levels is rather marginal to meaningless, and youll be soloing most content. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=648887 is a good thread talking about being a super lowbie and being specific with tank spec, just convert the Jugg terms to guardian terms. You can use a DPS companion or healer companion - doesn't matter, honestly T7 is fine but there are better dps companions. When you near 50 or 55, read: http://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=73 specifically the tank stat distribution threads. Stay away from Noxxic. Honestly you could level in whatever spec you want, the content in this game is a faceroll if you gear up every 3-5 levels.)

Just hang in there and do NOT give up. Keep switching around hotkeys, try shift+(key) stuff until you're comfortable. I know of people who don't use T G V B N due to the reach, it's just a matter of where you're comfortable. I'm really super stubborn and it took me a week to really get used to keybinding, and then about 2 more weeks of screwing around (even just swapping ONE skill) until I was comfortable. Normal people should have an easier time, as Ive been a clicker since the EQ 1 days, 10+ years is a long time of habits to break (I really should go back to a few other games and see if I beat more *** due to being a keybinder now...) Like I said, its gonna suck for a bit, but you'll love the results.

Amazing movie. And NP, since were on the same page, cool cool. I'd say Im at a 65-70% W/L % results, but I'm also on a RP PvE server and do a fair share of premades and know when to leave a warzone to avoid repetitive queuing with the same bads.