1738 DTPS on Writhing Horror last night. 1840 DTPS on a 20% Kel'Sara enrage. These fights are on my Powertech with just under 500 defense rating, so WH damage is inflated in order to reduce DG damage. Then consider that any log that stops before the first Force Leech has both myself and the sin cotank over 2000 DTPS. I can't come close to seeing how the Writhing Horror is the fight you need to gear for in the instance.

I've run similar math to this using KeyboardNinja's code (been meaning to write it up for this forum, but NIM DG exhaustion). For a fight that's more Force heavy than a 60/40 M/F split Sins want 0 defense rating, and for Powertechs anything more Force heavy than 58/42 gives a 0 desired defense rating. But, you're going to have 70 Defense on your stim, and probably another 300 or more that you just can't get rid of on your ear and implants. That pushes the M/F ratios up to around 65/35 for Sins and Powertechs to forego any defense rating on their mods, enhancements, and augments. There has been a very good point made in this thread though, if you go into NIM DG with a HM S&V gearing build you will take quite a bit more damage.

Yay, more things completely worthless for those of us with legacy 50.

You keep giving links that have "..." in the middle. Copy and paste the link from torparse.

Updated all the above. Carl you need to recheck the above link as it's broken. Also removed Tralt's double set bonus and double SA relic parses. According to Tyranny guys he sold his account.

Updated all the above.

*Looks at rules in OP* Nope, don't see anything against prestacking. And still don't see anything against cropping the front.

Do you even run Shield Tech in end game content? Oil Slick is a great cooldown as is. Very high uptime (30% with 2 piece set bonus), and it is the only tank cooldown in the game you can pop for your co-tank. Yes you get you cylinder procs and heat vented when you shield, but taking 0 damage from an attack is always better than taking 30% of the attack's damage. Anecdotal evidence about Oil Slick never causing a boss to miss is silly, you should have around a 60% chance to dodge a melee/ranged attack with Oil Slick up. Shoulder Cannon as a whole is really clunky, Powertech's definitely lost the 2.0 new ability lottery. But the healing on Shoulder Cannon can be significant if used at the right times. If you couple it with Kolto Overload when you drop below 30% you'll be able to heal yourself for 4.6k HPS over the 4 second you use Shoulder Cannon, no other tank can come close to that. But yes, AP and Pyro are not in good places right now.

Jerk. Come back to me.

I'm pointing out how the NIM Titan 6 design is a slap in the face of Sin tanks while becoming a mechanic that'll be bypassed by the Juggs. If Sin's can't Force Shroud those damage spikes, or take the unmitigated hit without dying, then there isn't a place for Sins in NIM S&V progression. That's not something I want to see.

So you want to make that mechanic more challenging by giving Jugg/Guardian tanks a 100% chance to cause the weapon damage attack to miss by popping Saber Ward at the right time to gain Blade Turning? Looking at someone's kill video it appears that Huge Grenade is every 1 minute 25 seconds. So yea, with 2 Jugg tanks alternating their 2 minute 30 second Saber Ward timer you'll never take a Huge Grenade. Not like any of that matters anyways since Jugg/PT heavy armor can take that hit with ease. Anyways. APEX: now recruiting 1 Jugg or PT tank for immediate NIM TFB/S&V progression on The Harbinger.

I know most DPS Sins want to see some good buff love to their class but I did this calculation a month or so ago on the Harbinger's boards to show that Deception Sins really don't do well on the dummy compared to a raid boss. Deception Sins are missing from the dummy: an Armor Debuff, Assassinate, and 30% damage increase to targets under 30% health is missing. Deception has a passive 9% Armor Penetration, so the typical 35% armor on a boss is only 31.85 to a Deception Sin. Having an Armor Debuff bringing the boss' armor down to 28% makes Sins only see 25.48% armor. This amounts to an increase of .7652/.6815 = 1.123 damage for all non internal/elemental damage. Looking at Sam's parse he gets 1810 DPS from attacks that are hit by armor, so the 1.123 increase in these attacks adds and additional 223 DPS, bringing his total DPS up to 2896 DPS. Sith Executioner talent, this increases all damage to under 30% targets by 6%. This amounts to an overall 1.8% damage increase over the course of the fight. Taking the armor debuffed damage of 2896, the Sith Executioner talent adds another 52 DPS, bringing the total up to 2948 DPS. I don't know how Assassinate works into the under-30% rotation, so I just have to say that it will increase the DPS some. Now compare Sammul's 2948+ DPS to the Mercs who don't have Execute talents and do get an Armor Debuff.

An armor debuff would add 223 DPS, and execute talents would add another 52 DPS on top of that (excluding adding Assassinate to rotation), sticking you at 2948 DPS. That's right where the Mercs with armor debuffs and no executes sit. Nice to see you still surprising me with what DPS Sins can do.

Except that we did hit and survive the 3rd Lightning Field. But you wouldn't know, because you weren't there.

Updated all the above. Took me longer than I should to get around to it, sorry about that. Only double Serendipitous Assault or double 2 piece set bonus parses still on the board are Tralt's and Andilus'. You guys have just over a week before I remove them (or in Andilus' case since it's not 100% clear, just respond letting me know what set bonus you were using back then).

Best way I've found to track if you had the Heat Blast cooldown reduced is to actually watch its cooldown with the cooldown text enabled. If you see a discontinuous jump it the time left on the cooldown you know you got a proc that GCD. I found the probability of a single auto-attack hitting the boss and triggering the cylinder to be P = 0.84*0.15 = .126. Then to find the probability of the full Rapid Shots/Hammer Shots triggering the cylinder I take 1 minus the probability that all 5 or 7 attacks failed to proc the cylinder. For a Vanguard thats p(cylinder proc) = 1 - (1-0.126)^7. That extra 12% chance to proc the Heat Blast cooldown must be nice when you decide to really fish for that proc. Maining a Jugg tank I've become quite attached to the idea of Endure Pain/Enure. Kolto Overload heals for 50% more than Endure Pain over its 8 second interval but it has the disadvantage of leaving you susceptible to spike damage that is at or more than 30% of your health. For a 36k health tank your 30% HP mark is 10.8k, very close to the spike damage of NIM WH, and below that of NIM TFB's Kephess (12-13k spikes). Couple the Shoulder Cannon with Kolto Overload and you either a) Out heal even the worst Trenchcutter like little hits or b) Emergency heal past 30% in anticipation of spike damage. Correct in the maintank/offtank distribution, though it varied by fight. I had Dashroode nearly the whole time. The Sin tank had Titan 6 a disproportionate amount of time since at that time we were trying to have him take all the Huge Grenades. Thrasher I was exclusively on add duty. Can't remember if I had Operations Chief, should be clear from the logs. Same with Olok (though the floor duty was probably split even). Had Sunder and we killed him 3rd. No clue on Styrak, probably just winged it with the Sin tank. As for my gear, that was our second full clear (and first clear done in 1 night). I believe I was fully augmented 69s with 2-3 Underworld pieces, and Verpine Ear and Implants.

I refer you to: But I will update the OP with a second section dividing by 1.3 as I can see how many people would be more interested in those numbers (and it's a 30 second Excel calculation). Really the only reordering I see in the top half doing this is the Hybrid Sniper moves ahead of Deception Sins and Annihilation Marauders.

This is a semi-rigorous look at some of the top parses for each class to see which specs burst the highest at the start of a fight and thus warrant a guard. The methodology is simple, look at the top parses either from the Harbinger DPS leaderboards I run, or from the global leaderboard run by MisterMuse. I have done my best to make sure the parses I look at aren't cropped at the beginning (even if I linked a cropped log), but I haven't tried to exclude parses that have been front loaded (i.e. Marauders and Juggs stacking Rage, Fury, Juyo stacks, Annihilator stacks) as a) quick enough boss pulls keep those stacks from falling off and b) bosses like The Terror that repeatedly spawn something with a new aggro table are realistic examples where front loading can occur regularly. Some notes. I could not find a pure Lethality Sniper, a Pyrotech Mercenary, or a Rage Marauder. Until further data is provided (as in parses at the high end level), I will be assuming Lethality Sniper's have the same damage pattern as Hybrid Sniper's, Pyrotech Mercenary's have the same damage pattern as Pyrotech Powertechs, and Rage Marauders have the same damage pattern as a Rage Juggernaut. Also the Pyro Powertech and Concealment Operative parses do not appear to be at the top end of what those classes are capable of. Now, I previously said this was a semi-rigorous look. There are 20 different DPS spec across the 8 different classes (Snipers and Powertechs are the only hybrids I'm looking at). Sifting through those 20 specs for even 1 good parse takes time, getting 5 or more parses from each spec to do any sort of proper statistics is just a painful time sink. Finally, when the whole purpose of this thread and my recommendations at the end is based on and assumption that all the DPS in your group are equally geared and equally competent (that can either mean your own awesome raid group, or the 16 man pug with no familiar faces), and that you're wanting to guard the highest spiking DPS. Here is are the appreciable spikes for each spec during the first 4 to 18 second window of the fight (cut of the early bound at 4 for many reasons, if you get upset with me on that I'll justify it later). Imp to Pub spec translations. Spikes: So those parses and summaries are a more involved way of looking at which specs are spiking where. If you really want to get into it, you'll compare your own threat spikes on the opener and see who's spiking where you aren't. However, a simpler way of determining who to guard is to take each spec's highest spike in the 4-18 second opening window, then apply the 25% aggro reduction of guard, and then divide that number by 1.1 for melee classes and 1.3 for ranged classes. The end result is the threat you must output to hold aggro (do note I'm suddenly shifting from discrete values at specific times to average values over the opening interval. So, if you put out 1 less TPS than these numbers you will lose aggro to these specs (in an average theoretical sense). Ordered by highest threat output: Same threat required calculations assuming MDPS stand at 4 meters and have to obtain 1.3 times the tank's threat to pull: Just tell me who to guard! (TL;DR version): Engineering Snipers are going to put out insane burst damage in an ideal situation. It's better to smack them until they learn not to do that than to give them a guard. Now, Carnage Marauders, Operatives (both specs), and Hybrid Powertechs are going to be your burst kings who should be at the top of your list for guards. Slightly below those are Deception Assassins, Annihilation Marauders, and AP Powertechs. For a progression raid where you know your MDPS are being smart about staying out of melee range, Hybrid Snipers are also warranting a guard at the same priority level as Deception Assassins and Annihilation Marauders. Not sure how to tell your Marauders, Powertechs, or Assassins apart? For Marauders, the stance for Carnage is Ataru Form, so remember to guard Ataru Form at top priority. The Annihilation guys will be in Juyo form. For Powertechs, the Hybrid is run on Combustible Gas Cylinder. For Assassins, your bursty Deception guys will be in Surging Charge. Where I'm willing to take this thread. This is important, I'm looking for better data for some specs, but I'm not looking to turn this into a "Look how hard I can burst!" competition. I need data for Lethality Snipers, Pyro Mercenaries, and Rage Marauders. I'm looking for better parses for Pyro Powertechs and Concealment Operatives. Without very good reason I will not replace the example parse for any other spec.

I will concede all day long that PT/VG tanks are the easiest to play at an acceptable level. That said, I'm really glad there's someone else out there that realizes how intricate PT/VG tanks have become in 2.0, and how those intricacies have really raised the skill ceiling on the class. A few points I have to add: 1) The auto-attack vs heavy damage attacks argument is a nice one that reminds me of playing the pre-2.0 Hybrid Jugg. In that spec you didn't reliably have enough rage to reliably hit Impale (highest damage and threat move) and Force Scream (gave damage absorption bubble) each as they came off cooldown. In each case you have to decide if you want optimal damage/threat, or optimal mitigation. I don't think you should be to fixed to either the auto-attack spamming, or the damage spamming rotation for the length of the whole fight, but rather slide between the two rotations in response to the fight. 2) Looks like there's a minor Pub/Imp asymmetry here. Vanguard's auto-attack is 7 different hits, Powertech's auto-attack is 5 different hits. This means a Vanguard has a 61.04% chance to proc Ion Cylinder, and a Powertech has a 49.0% chance of proccing the cylinder using an auto-attack. 3) I will admit the Shoulder Cannon is the PT ability I have the most room to improve using. It looks like you use it nearly on cooldown based on how much healing it gives you over the fight. I like to save mine to couple with Kolto Overload though. Kolto Overload heals you for 2.8k HPS if you stay under 30% (and something like 900 HPS over 30% but I'm working off memory on that number). Couple that 2.8k HPS with the 1.8k HPS a 36k health tank will get hitting Shoulder Cannon every second for 4 seconds, and you can burst heal for 4.6k HPS for those 4 seconds, followed up by 900-2.8k HPS. As for logs, here's a HM S&V log from my Jugg. I can't find any HM TFB logs for any of my tanks for the life of me.

I'm still looking for mechanics to cheese with it since I've only recently realized its potential. The two I have figured out so far are for NIM Kephess, popping it while dropping the second purple circle on the last phase (old content, but still mechanically hard and on still being worked on by many guilds). The mechanic that really made me realize the potential of Hydraulic Overrides/HTL was popping it right before Styrak did his Force Pull. No knockback, no threat drop, no tank swap needed.

I wouldn't turn down a new cooldown on my Powertech, just like I haven't complained about getting Saber Reflect on my Jugg. But, you're looking at the Powertech's suite of cooldowns and utility wrong. Saber Reflect and Force Shroud are primarily used for cheesing mechanics. Your counterpart for those as a Powertech tank is Hydraulic Overrides. Start looking to use that in clever places and you'll be suprised by what you can cheese.

Never saw this much whining and moaning from pre-2.0 Juggs about their abysmal threat.

Yes, until today I thought the title of this thread would be rather silly as well since I'm not talking about Kolto Overload or Shoulder Cannon (sorry Vanguards, I have no idea what your terminology is). Then, running a routine 16 man SM TC as the boss tank, I noticed I had 85 HPS from "Close and Personal." What is Close and Personal? Well, it's a general passive Powertech ability inserted into the 2.0 expansion. The tooltip in full: "Increases the duration of Energy Shield by 3 seconds. In addition, suffering direct damage from area attacks vents 2 heat and heals you for 2.5% of your total health. This effect cannot occur more than once every 3 seconds." So at the extremely lucky end, proccing Close and Personal every 3 seconds as a 36k HP tank will net you 900 healing every 3 seconds, or 300 HPS. That's Sin tank healing territory. Obviously a PT won't get that lucky by miles, which is why my SM TC log had 85 HPS, but I think it's time we start considering at least the potential for PT self heals since they are happening for some bosses. I'm going to be sifting through my logs (which are not at all labeled or organized) and seeing what HPS I'm putting out for the the HM S&V and TFB fights as well, and encourage other PT/VGs to post what kind of HPS they're getting in those ops as well. Updates: HM S&V Log

Theynerfdmypyro - Carnage Marauder - 2503 DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/298188/time/1371684568/1371684887/0/Overview 72 MH and OH. Crap ear, implants, and relics. Rest is optimized 69s, and everything has blue 66 power augments. First parse at level 55, I really haven't a damn clue what I'm doing other than spending rage during the Gore window, and building rage outside of it (and popping Beserk on CD). Annoyingly, I pulled 100 DPS higher than I have ever done in AP or Pyro on my better geared Powertech.

Hey I've just gotten my Marauder up to 55 and am loving the Carnage playstyle (I hate rigid rotations). One thing I'm trying to wrap my head around is when Gore applies to an attack you've hit. Is it if Gore is up when you activate any (or certain) attacks, you get the armor penetration, or is it if the attack finishes or animates before Gore falls off you get the armor pen? My main reason for asking is because of the small window in between attacks due to latency/incompetence. Say it takes me 0.1 seconds in between attacks. If I hit Gore and spam Massacre (without Beserk or alacrity) I have my first attack at 0 seconds, my second attack is hit at 1.6 seconds, the 3rd at 3.2 seconds. With the third attack's GCD finishing at 4.7 seconds, after the Gore window ends, will the third attack always get the armor penetration? And as far as different behavior for different attacks, do all instant attacks register inside the Gore window just the same? And am I correct in thinking the whole channel of Ravage has to be inside the Gore window for the last tick to get the armor penetration?