While I still have a leaning towards Dooku, I think you're overestimating Dooku here. Yoda would/should have killed him but his emotional attachment to the idea of bringing his Padawan back from the Dark Side was too strong. Yoda knew that Dooku was not the Sith Master. Dooku left the Jedi Order after Qui-Gonn is defeated by Maul. Yes there have been Jedi infiltrations by Sith as we know from one of the SWTOR Galactic Timeline shorts but given that Dooku is brought in at such a young age then followed closely by Yoda and others throughout his time as he was a very powerful Jedi it's safe to say that everyone knew Dooku was not the Sith Master. Also you mentioned that it is plot dynamics that allow Dooku to escape as he does a similar maneuver in Dark Rendezvous I believe. Dooku can hold his own for a little against Yoda but that is it.

Same for me and is the main reason why my slight leaning is Dooku at this point. Dooku will incorporate Force showings during duels though and I'm also saying he needs to be careful when they're placed/used

I'm thinking the debate should return to the Satele that we are supposed to be considering for this fight. That is, the Satele in Fatal Alliance (3643 BBY) and not the one in the Battle of Alderaan (3667 BBY). This more important for Jedi than Sith as has been previously mentioned in discussions that Light Side Users do not have the steepness in learning curves that Dark Side Users have. I know Satele EU material better than Dooku EU material. While Satele's dismantling of the hex droids with ease seems to be underrated thus far, I can't ignore the fact that Dooku can keep with Yoda in saber battles. Does he have to distract Yoda a couple times to escape? Yes, but lasting in battle to Yoda is something maybe only two other people in the galaxy at the time can do (Sidious & maybe Mace). From what I remember from Fatal Alliance, Satele was able to dismantle hex droids more easily than Darth Chratis but Chratis was also weaving his way through hex droids taking out multiple at once with Lightning. Chratis was not on the Dark Council and, for the sake of this discussion, I wish he would've been a Dark Council member so we can better access the awesomeness of Satele's feats in this novel. I'm starting to have a slight leaning towards Dooku. But I think if it becomes more Force-orientated, Satele will win. If Dooku starts off by testing her Force abilities as with Yoda in Eps II, Dooku will be in for a shock because I think Satele will overwhelm him before anything else gets started. Note in Eps II Yoda just plays defense as I think he desires to redeem his old Padawan. If Yoda is as emotionally detached as he advices others to be, Yoda would overwhelm Dooku in a Force battle and save the galaxy from less torn worlds and countless lives and then the onset of the Empire. Oh well . . . Edit: Two thoughts: 1. I hope I don't derail the thread 2. I always like fellblade in discussions as I have always found his signature entertaining

Of the remaining SWTOR related books I liked Fatal Alliance the best but they're all good in my opinion. I'll let others comment on NJO books but I personally have the Jedi Academy Trilogy on my to read list because that's where Exar Kun comes back as a spirit

I'm EE not Physics but I'm curious as to why you're using the equation for energy of a photon for this discussion? To me it seems like comparing the light particles the saber is giving off is not important in regards to power of the saber but wanna hear your thought process.

I personally just do amazon and never had problems finding anything there. In my case there's also a store that will sell new and used movies, games, books, comics, etc so I don't know if you have something of the sort near you that will have some good prices as well. Edit: http://www.amazon.com/Path-Destruction-Star-Wars-Darth/dp/0345477375

The first issue came out 2 months after the game did if I think I understand you correctly

Like I mentioned I agree but this occurs 15-20 years before her prime. What she did with the relative ease of destroying hex droids is pretty impressive given that the droids where no joke. Shortly before the battle with hex droids she envelops herself in the Force to shortly be transported through space without any suits/other support. Quite impressive also. What I'm saying is that while the feat is preformed 15-20 years before her prime, I think she could perform this feat without any energy absorption in her prime. I'm still having problems deciding who I think will win however.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Dawn_of_the_Jedi Most of it 22,000 years before the game

I'm not familiar with post-ROTJ EU yet. And I agree that other people could do this feat but was just wondering for curiosity sake not to add points to Satele or anything like that. Thanks

Dooku shows the Force outside of dueling in all his fights in the Prequel Trilogy and in the Clone Wars series as well. He's not one who ignores other Force applications during a fight so I don't think his strategy changes necessarily.

Thing is in that Eps 2 fight during the Telekinesis (non-Lightning) portion Yoda just played defense. Satale Shan had some pretty amazing Telekinesis feats both at Alderaan and in the Fatal Alliance novel with the hex droids. If Dooku does start with testing the waters as you say like with Yoda, he may be in for a shock as she has no reservations of testing his waters in return. Also, yes I think it could be possible that Satale does absorb some of the energy of the lightsaber but this is just speculation that she channels it rather than diffuse it completely. What is less speculative is that this feat with Malgus takes place 15-20 years before her prime and maybe she could then, and always had, that kind Telekinesis power. PS, is she the only person/instance of absorbing a lightsaber like that?

Awesome job as always good sir. PS I really did enjoy Fatal Alliance whenever you have the time to give it a try. Jet Nebula's my favorite Non-Force User

I'll take some time to think but I'd like to first say that given S. Shan was active throughout the entirety of the Great Galactic War, Cold War, and Galactic War against legions of Sith I don't see much in terms of Dun Moch that Dooku could use/say that Satale hasn't heard or combated with before making the edge for her in this category a little larger. So I agree with what you say in that Don Moch would probably not be useful

Fatal Alliance may have some good info on her as she's probably as close as we have to her prime in there. Don't know if you've already checked that novel but just throwing it out there

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_books The Lost Tribe of Sith is collected into a 400ish page novel "The collected stories". Then there is one more that is a comic book set right after the book that is pretty good set relatively around SWTOR eraish events/time. Personally I'd recommend the Darth Bane Trilogy next if you haven't read it yet.

1. Jedi are most powerful in every possible definition of the phrase: Lightsaber, Force, as an organization, and individually. There are canon facts that support this claim as well as feats that can be most easily seen/referenced in the REAL Most Powerful Project specifically the Jedi list. (I know your skepticism of that list but please take it from someone who observed and did some mild participation throughout the 500+posts to determine each position that they are thorough and the closest thing we have to accurate at this point). Instead of claiming that I am wrong, how about you give an order or an individual that is more powerful than the Golden Age Jedi or its grandmaster. I'll give you a hint: Yoda is canonically the most powerful Jedi pre-Luke and the Jedi Order of this time period is canonically most powerful so this will be hard. 2. Unless I am mistaken your original point was that the Rule of Two ended with Tenebrous which is not at all what I've said. I am saying that it ended later with Sidious/Vader as Vader, the apprentice, did not destroy the master with the intention of grabbing the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith and then the institution truly dies later with Sidious final demise.

Reread the fight in the Revan novel. Revan was momentarily saved by the droid and was overwhelmed by the Emperor's Lightning. Revan (a character I like and I am not a hater) did and always was going to lose to the Emperor. Even if Scourge wouldn't have betrayed Revan I'm confident the Emperor can defeat Scourge, Revan, and the Exile at once as he eliminated the Dark Council members simultaneously after this assault. And yes this was the true Emperor and that is stated in the novel. The Emperor is obsessed with immortality and after this assault he is reminded of his mortality and hides is body and begins using voices etc. after this assault. I don't know what your trying to say here. Hopefully not that Revan is the most powerful Force user.

No..it is a confirmed fact via source books that the Jedi of this era are the most powerful. Nothing of my own bias or whatever you're claiming. As an aside I prefer TOR era to the ROE era but personal preferences and recognizing SW facts as they are and not what you want them to to be are two different things. I also forgot to mention Master Fay. Yoda, Mace, and Fay are more powerful than any Jedi before Luke and the New Jedi Order. Throw in the others that I mentioned and there's no way that the Jedi Order of any other time period who's top guy is already behind at least Yoda, Mace, and Fay is more powerful as they will be lacking in quality and quantity. Hence why the Jedi of that time are so powerful. They would spar often and there were mild uprisings here and there. They were not sitting in total isolation just mediating all the time. Obviously this also speaks to the success to the Rule of Two being able to manipulate and destroy the Jedi Order at the height of its power. Has it been established that Ruin brought the Sith from out of extinction and did nothing with something such as reorganizing leftovers from Vitiate's Empire? I don't think the back-story of the New Sith Empire is developed enough yet to make such a conclusion but I could be wrong. The Sith of Bane's order were looking towards ruling for more than 20 years obviously. The Sith Lords leading up to Sid cannot necessarily be held accountable for the unpredictably in events that occur 50-1000 years after their death. Remember, if Connor Jax would not have destroyed Sid's clones, Plag basically creating Anakin and thus Luke, who's to say it would've still only been 20 years? Also, the SW timeline as it stands only goes through 137 ABY and thus the full legacy of Bane's Order/effect on the Republic/galaxy from Sid and others is not developed yet whereas Ruin's and others' legacy is more easily determined. Are you the attorney prosecuting the Order of Sith Lords? I'm sure you've heard the phrase actions speak louder than words. It really don't matter how many times Plag mocks the Rule of Two and says that he will create a new order that will last a thousand years. He clearly is obsessed with immorality and goes above and beyond any other person in SW history to obtain it. Among his many efforts is trying to force this new order thought onto Sid. Why do you think Plag is so intent of reminding Sid of this new order? Because he knows that Sid is, and always was, super power hungry and powerful and by trying to convince Sid of this new order Plag will have eliminated one more threat to his immortality. What ACTUALLY ended up happening? Sid gained all (or a large majority) of his master's knowledge and maintained collaboration with him because Plag was still useful to Sid's own ends. Once Sid became chancellor, he is the most politically powerful person in the galaxy and has no need of a co-chancellor or Plag in general and thus he eliminates him. How, in any way, is this concept different from the Rule of Two and what transpired between Bane and Zannah? Plag can boast all he wants about his new order but I truly don't understand how an out of universe perspective can say this ended up not being another iteration of the Rule of Two. Thus, yes the Rule of Two ended up on top of the galaxy or in your mind at the very least was THE essential mindset that led up to being atop the galaxy. Pretty Important either way. I agree. On topic: Vader wins.

The Golden Age of Jedi is canonically the best era of Jedi. Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Ti, Fisto, Kloon, Anakin, Dooku, etc. They didn't have any wars to fight that is exactly the point. They had all the time in the world to dedicate to studying the force and perfecting and extending their powers. This era's Jedi and corresponding Sith were excellent users of Lightsaber and Force Powers whereas previous eras specialized in one or the other as there was less time to study in times of war. Also Grevious is no joke and is the most powerful non-force user. Moral Victories are not real victories. What are the goals of the Sith? Defeat the Republic and Jedi. Did Ruin do this? No. Did The Rule of Two? Yes. Technically it didn't end with Tenebrous. Sith, by nature, try to bend the rules and mock authority even it is their own rules and authority. Plag and Sid are perfect examples of the Rule of Two's philosophy. What did Plag do? Trained an apprentice to equality then brought him in further by sharing with him his everlasting life experiments then they worked on these experiments together. Then we know what happens later. So even though Plag mocks the Rule of Two and thinks he's creating his own order, all he is doing is what the Rule of Two is designed for. Train and share all of your knowledge with another and be challenged for the mantle of Dark Lord. Also it is said in the Plag novel that other members of Bane's Order would have their own children as apprentices and in Plag's case, Tenebrous used statistical prediction to manipulate the birth of a strong Force sensitive. Were there probably some people that both the Jedi and Sith missed out on across the galaxy? Absolutely. But both orders did alright for themselves as both are canonically the most powerful Eras in SW timeline

1 on 1? I thought this was 3 on 3? Or is this like some wrestling tag-team thing? If 3 on 3: As Sith are obsessed with self-preservation I think they would try to overwhelm Mace from the get go as he's the weakest of the 3 Jedi. However I think the Jedi will try to align themselves against their power-appropriate counterpart (ie Luke & Sidious, Yoda & Caedus, Mace & Krayt) like Yoda and Obi-Wan do in Eps 3. Thus the Sith will be dodging Luke for as long as possible and of the 6 Mace could be the first to be defeated in this scenario. However if the Jedi are able to force their strategy Krayt will be first to be defeated. EDIT: Thanks for the Rayla name explanations!

Do you know her outside of the game? I've always been curious why you refer to LadyKulvax as Rayla. And that seems to be one of her favorite things to do . My argument is strictly based on the Most Powerful Project. I don't see the purpose of debating for pages and pages on those rankings and then not use the results

I always win!

See my post. Luke > Sidious, Yoda > Caedus, and Mace > Krayt. Why did the Michael Jordan's Bulls never lose in the 90's? Because MJ was better than any other teams best player, Scottie Pippen was better than any team's 2nd best player, and Rodman (for all his quirks) was better than any team's 3rd best player. Same applies here

You guys may call me a novice but I think the outcome is relatively straightforward. Entertaining question and debate! I say that the team of Yoda, Luke, and Mace Windu win for two reasons: 1. They have Luke (and that should be enough of the argument) 2. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=662016 On the Most Powerful Force Users; Luke > Sidious, Yoda > Caedus, and I think we can assume that Mace > Krayt. Mace just misses the #10 spot and Krayt is further away from that spot than Mace. Ie think of it as basketball/football rankings Mace is the number 1 (or 2) vote getter not on the list and Krayt is 4-5ish. Thus Mace > Krayt. On the Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelists; Luke, Yoda, and Mace all > Caedus > Sidious > Krayt who's not ranked at all yet (as the Sith List is available yet). So, per the rankings, if the battle is of Force Powers the Jedi have the advantage. If the battle is Lightsaber-skill orientated, the Jedi have the distinct advantage. If the battle is a combination, the Jedi have the advantage in both components so they win here as well. Note that I'm not necessarily saying that if they fought 100 times the Jedi would win all 100, but they will win a very distinct majority. Great question though! I feel that Sidious, Plagueis, & Vader vs Yoda, Galen Marek, & Jaina Solo may be more even.