The thing is, is that these "lesser force users" specialize in force concealment. Maris Brood and Lord Nefarid completely based their fighting styles on the ability to conceal themselves. Just because Traya is more powerful does not mean that she would have the same amount of skill as someone who's been training their entire life in the use of that skill. The biggest problem with me is that we can only assume what she can do in combat with this ability. Assumptions aren't always true. We have no evidence of Traya ever using this technique in combat. But in the end, Beni, you and I can only agree to disagree. It is up to Aurbere to decide. However if anyone would like to put their input into this argument, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you, that is interesting. However, that does not answer my questions. Can she move at high speeds while concealed? Can she rapidly conceal and unconceal herself like Lord Nefarid? How fast can she conceal herself? We need to know these things in order to use this style against Bane.

So Bane could resort to crushing parts of the palace if needed, right?

I apologize. I can watch them when I get home on my computer, or you could explain them to me. My phone won't show them.

Haha, its good.

Only one ability. Her force concealment. Here is the reason why I think this: We don't know how well she could use it in combat. Like, how fast could she disappear? Could Bane detect her force levels dropping to give him a hint to what's about to happen? How fast can she move in it? Can she disappear and reappear constantly and quickly, in a similar manner to Lord Nefarid? And can she leave the area if she uses it (a question for Aurbere)? If she can, Bane could just collapse the building to prevent her from escaping.

Nihilus is a guy, and he's not on this list.

We should definately take into account that Traya has never shown to be able to vanish during a fight. This shouldn't be allowed since we don't know how it could actually be played out.

Agreed. But Traya leaving will give them both time to re establish their energy and formulate a plan. This would just really complicate things.

Impressive. However its important to note that the exile was nearly out of energy.

Is that the Exile in this quote?

I don't believe Traya is more powerful. Ive seen no argument to support it. Yes, intense concentration. Leaving her body vulnerable for attack. Bane is fast, and reacts to things very quickly.

1. Fair enough. 2. I never said she tries to dominate him, but searched for his fears to use against him. 3. Never said she was unfamiliar with the style, I said Bane was unfamiliar with it. 4. You assume that Traya can just easily give those lightsabers a mind of their own, and then do her own thing. 5. I implied that he sent out a wave immediately, not giving her enough time to escape. You assume she could escape so easily in the midst of battle. 6. You forget that Bane is very powerful and fast, Traya can't hold him back as easily as you imply. 7. I know its very unpleasant, but you are probably right.

You underestimate Bane and overestimate Traya. 1. You merely assume that a force push would so easily drive Bane back. 2. That's basically how I said it. 3. First off, its unlikely that Traya can do this so easily in the middle of a battle, but even if she could, using the force as heavily as she would need to to control 3 lightsabers all at once, would give away her location allowing Bane to sense her. Bane's fast. She couldn't stay back so easily.

And I have to argue with people right when I wake up tomorrow, boy will that be fun...... haha

No rush. I have to sleep before work, so I won't be on for quite awhile. You should wait till you know you have the time to make a good argument.

I'm going to do a battle scenario, but first, after rereading the final fight between Bane and Zannah, I'm going to post some qoutes about bane's abilities as shown in that fight. Speed: "Zannah intercepted his blade with one of her own, angling her weapon so that the momentum of Bane's attack was redirected downward, sending the tip of his lightsaber into the dirt. This should have exposed him to a counterthrust, but he was already reacting to her move, driving his entire body forward into Zannah's before she could bring her weapon up." "He was faster than she ever could have imagined," Strength: "She easily blocked each blow, but the momentum of the crushing impact caused her to stagger back, throwing her off balance." Unpredictible style: "Her defensive style was simple, but performed correctly it was nearly impenetrable. Realizing this, Bane backed off and changed tactics. Instead of a savage, relentless pursuit meant to overwhelm her, he settled into a pattern of feints and quick thrusts, probing and prodding her defenses in search of a weakness as the two of them settled in for a long battle of attrition." "His style back then had been brutish and simple (when he possesed the orbalisk armor), though undeniably effective. Now, however, his technique was more advanced. Unable to simply bully his way heedlessly forward, he had developed an unpredictable, seemingly random style. Each time she thought she could anticipate where the next attack was coming from, he changed tactics, disrupting the rhythm of the battle and causing her to give ground." "Zannah had threw herself into a back handspring, flipping head over heels three times in a quick succesion just to put some space between her and Bane. Before the fourth one she suddenly stopped and went into a crouch, thrusting forward with her lightsaber like a spear to impale her opponent as he charged after her in pursuit... only Bane wasn't there. Anticipating her move, he had stopped several meters away." Knowledge of defense against sorcery: "Dark side sorcery was complex; it attacked the psyche in ways that were difficult to explain and even more difficult to defend against. Bane had no talent for it, yet he did his best to study the techniques. What he learned was that the only real counter was the victims strength of will." (Regarding the mental attack of illusions Zannah was using against him) "He knew how to defeat these demons, and he struck back. Unleashing a primal scream, he channeled his terror into pure rage and lashed out with the dark side. It tore through the swarm in a burst of searing violet light, utterly obliterating them." (It also knocked Zannah back) "She didn't let her concentration falter. Bane's mind was stong; if she let up even for an instant he might break free from the spell." The only way Zannah could beat him was by summoning dark side tendrils, which was a black mist of pure dark side energy that formed into tenticals and attacked him. These tendrils distintigrated flesh and bone on contact, and they were completely impossible to defend against. In order to fight against them, in Bane's own words, he had to kill her before she killed him. I doubt Traya knew how to use an ability like this. Now, the battle scenario: The two sith lords stood facing each other, neither knew who the other was. Both of them intelligent, they knew that the enemy couldn't be underestimated, they both could sense the tremendus amount of force power in the other. Bane and Traya had leapt to the center of the battlefield, igniting their lightsabers mid jump and engaging in a duel when landed. Traya knew she couldn't blindly entercthe offensive with her opponents strikes being as fast and strong as they were. His style highly unpredictable, it was difficult for even her to exploit an opening, so she had to rely on soresu. Taking the best chance she got, Traya moved into an offensive makashi forcing Bane on the defense, hoping she could work his bladework away. But Bane's strong counterblows forced her back onto the defensive. Realizing she could not best him in lightsaber combat, Traya leapt away from her foe. With a new strategy to attack her opponents mind, exploiting a shatterpoint in his defensive barrier over his mind, Traya tore through the shield and began to torment her opponent. She used dun moch, exploiting the fears she found deep within his mind, and used them to taunt him, hoping to break his will. But Bane's mind was strong. He mastered his fears, not vice versa. He turned his fear into anger and called upon that power to let out a powerful force scream, breaking Traya's hold on his mind. Traya had quickly realized that mind techniques would get her nowhere, so she decided to use a technique she was sure that he was unfamiliar with. In an instant, she revealed 3 lightsabers hidden in her belt, and began to telekinetcally wield them all at once. Surely enough, Bane was caught by surprise. There were two options on how to attack using this technique. She could go for an all offensive, and send all three at once to attack Bane, but no, that would leave her body to vulnerable for attack. Instead, she opted to send two lightsabers to attack him (focusing half of her attention on those two lightsabers; one fourth on each) and kept the third lightsaber closer to her for defense, and also keeping her main lightsaber in her hand (focusing her other half of her attention on her defense; one fourth on the last telekinetically wielded lightsaber and one fourth on her body, just incase she needed to throw up a force sheild). Sending the two lightsabers at Bane, Traya threw her plan into motion. Bane fell into a defensive stance, blocking the lightsabers blows, however he realized that her attention was spread evenly across them, allowing him to destroy the first lightsaber with ease. Now with a full half of her attention, the second lightsaber was much more difficult to throw a good counterattack against. Using his unpredictability to his advantage, he started chargin towards Traya, the second lightsaber following quickly in pursuit. At the final moment, Bane swung around, blocking the lightsabers attack, and dealing a quick blow to the hilt, effectively destroying it. With her attention on the lightsaber broken, Traya was nearly caught off guard by Bane now attacking at her body. She used the lightsaber she held in her hand to block his attacks. She nearly forgot about the third lightsaber, which was clumsily striking at Bane. He took advantage of this, spinning and destoying it quickly. At that moment, Traya could have attacked him, but she knew he would be able to block the strike, so instead she hesitated, and when Bane made another stike at her, she disappeared from sight. Bane knew she had just been there, but he could no longer see her or sense her through the force. But Bane was no fool, he knew she couldn't have gon far. Bane lashed out with the force, sending a powerful force wave in all directions away from him. Traya had felt it coming. If she let it hit her, it would render her visable and open her up for an easy attack by knocking her down. So, cursing under her breath, she threw up a force shield, knowing it would give away her location. There she is! Bane had found her! He came after her quickly, engaging in another duel with her. Her defenses were growing weaker, and in a final decisive strike, he severed her remaing hand. The pain was immense, but nothing she couldn't handle. Traya moved back quickly and unleashed her last hope upon Bane, Force Drain. Bane fell to the ground, experiencing a pain more powerful than any he had ever felt before. However, he recognized the ability as being similar to the death field he had once projected. Not knowing how to defend against it, he tapped into the pain, turning it into power to unleash barrage of force lightning at his enemy. With the force lightning headed her way, Traya's concentration was broken on her force drain, but it had to be done in order to deflect the lightning. With his energy dimished a bit, and Traya's restored some, they both had about an equal amounf of energy. But Bane wasn't about to let her attack. With Traya completely unarmed, she could not defend against his lightsaber. Bane quickly began to attack Traya, using and all offensive stance. Traya moved with speed and precision, avoiding his attacks, but unable to defend against his lightsaber, she was at an extreme disadvantage. Attempting to leap away in mid air, Bane sliced completey through her waist, cutting her in half. Traya was lying on the ground, attempting to call on the force to heal herself. Bane knew he had to end her now. In a swift move, he reached out with the force and crushed her heart, effectively ending the life of his most fierce opponent.

Definately, this will be a very close match. It could go either way.

She couldn't have been completely severed. And didn't she predict jango's death when you asked about canderous? I think that the republic falling was merely traya stating how she felt it would fall. Regardless, Traya wasn't any weaker than her normal self when she tapped into the power of the trayus core. Remember, when she used the 3 lightsabers she couldn't move around or use any other force powers, so it must have required immense concentration. Who do you think would win Selenial? We need more input

Thing is, the Trayus core was very powerful, even severed from the force, traya's farsight was even more powerful than before. So its not unlikely that she could only weild 3 lightsabers at once because of its power. Without it, I'd say she couldn't weild them as effectively.

Bane projected a death field by tapping into Andeddu's keep despite never doing such a thing before.

Can I get a source and possibly a quote for the force stealth thing? I've never seen or heard of her using this ability anywhere.

Very good point. This proves how unpredictable his style really was.

His opponents should be too powerful to simply fall to his domination. However I think it should be allowed if he weakens them enough to be able to use it.

Thankyou I'm still trying to understand how she could do it without using the force. That would definately mean that she had to have tapped into the nexus, so there's no evidence to support that she can do it without a nexus' power.