Well hopefully, having played it first hand he might cotton on to the fact we need some buffs to be competitive. The second message one can only hope he gets is that metrics don't tell the whole picture: total damage done is a vanity metric only, and only has loose correlation with your actual effectiveness in a warzone. Fluff damage for ego, burst for the win.

The only question maras and juggs for that matter should be asking is: How come we haven't had a much deserved nerf? It absolutely makes me laugh that you guys even think you have any legitimate complaints having ridden the top the the OP wave for so long.

So overpowered classes are dominating wzs and sucky classes still suck? Gee, if only there hadn't been a million threads on classes that are stupidly overpowered that Bioware took on board and rebalanced them accordingly.

Pretty badly actually. I think sorcs will be the least wanted. I actually think Merc healers are going to be the ones people want, assuming the basics of the spec don't change. They will have their interrupt immunity on their shield, with stupid high levels of damage reduction, easily enough to not worry about two dps burning them down, never mind taunts and/or guard. They have better utility - stealth scan, and they can electronet* the opposing healer. They have the best passive mitigation, and decent burst heals. Even if their healing throughput is the lowest, in 4 v 4, it's more than good enough. They can instant cast their mez with an ability. *stops both ops troll roll and sorc bubble.

The *only* reason they do little damage is because we don't get willpower to damage on them. No other AC has their level 1 abilities nerfed in so drastic a fashion. And there is absolutely no justification for it.

Alright but I'm willing to bet warriors and snipers will be buffed, operatives won't be nerfed, and come 2.4, we'll still be bottom of the pile for wanted dps classes in wzs. Heck you can make a great case for merc heals over sorcs in arenas now. We will be the least wanted healer.

Totally.

I think half the problem we are facing is our sin/shadow cousins. We lost instant whirlwind because they could mind trap and whirlwind two people. They didn't nerf it for them, they nerfed us all. Sharing speed with our cousins, probably means we'll never get the baseline egress buff. But hey, we are the force masters, but don't get shroud. This the sin "I win" button against sorcs. Hell, and thanks to the amazing decision to nerf the TWO abilities we learnt on Korriban or Tython, sabre strike/thrash, we can't even use our sabre to inflict meaningful damage to them when they have their I win button up. And you know what I just get more depressed the more I read this. So many problems and even with two great advocates, well the other 7 ACs have theirs too. If we get a buff, they will more than likely too, and we end up being near the bottom of the pile as always. When was the last time they nerfed their beloved warriors? A dev plays a sniper and look how they got buffed. Do you really have any faith operative heals will be nerfed? Hell they could have placed a cooldown on troll roll in 2.3 at the very least but no, not even that. I just don't have any faith with the numerous problems this class has that we will ever be buffed into proper competitiveness. And let's face it how many times have these issues been raised before in the class feedback thread?

Sorcs have no "guaranteed" crit in PvP. Affliction can be cleansed. This is very different to the guarenteed crits other classes get regardless of what the other players do (Smash, laze target, rail shot in Advanced Proto etc)

Effectiveness comes from being able to do your job under pressure. Both dps specs can have their basic rotation shut down by a single interrupt. What's made things like warriors strong? It's quite simple, the have a multitude of defensives they don't really need (or at least should be functioning differently inside a wz)*, strong dps and the tools to keep a target just where they want them. We had (pre 2.0) 2 sentinels and a scoundrel healer 3 manning SM EC. Now I won't for one moment take anything away from the skills of the player to pull that off, but that really should have set alarm bells ringing in Bioware's class balancing department . DPS only classes should not be tanking Operations even story mode (and as a side issue, I doubt a sage healer could have kept them up they way the scoundrel healer did, and scoundrel heals got a rather undeserved huge buff). A slight tangent, granted, but the point still stands, warriors and snipers are absurdly strong and we don't even have the best dps to counter our squishines. * why doesn't our whirlwind when talented in madness affect extra targets for instance? This is basically pointing out that Bioware already change some of our abilities for warzones, but i don't see warriors losing anything on theirs - only us.

Yeah it's just insane, and it's not like switching forked darkness and focal lightning wasn't suggested a million times when the new trees were announced. That's another point about the skill sorc trees in general, the lack of overall synergy/and or usefulness of some high up talents. Hardly a big concern but a case in point - it's odd that lightning spire doesn't increase force lightning's range to 35m given that if you are at max range you can't use your barrage procs without moving.

Yes, congratulations Psi. I am not out to make sorcs the next FoTM class. Far from it, I want to see sorcs have abilities on par with other ACs, or if we don't get it, then some compensating factor. I don't believe sorcs "are fine", I do believe they have one of the highest skill caps for what is in my opinion, an under-performing class. They have been successively nerfed for many patches, with little to compensate. I for one do not think damage is where it needs to be. Part of the problem stems from Bioware's instance that stuff has to be the same PvP and PvE instead of balancing abilities and damage around the two environments. We have the lowest mitigation, no defensives, and dps is the easiest to shut down. Our kiting tools are laughable in the face of the multitude of roots, snares, mezzes, stuns and anti-kiting tools given to other classes. Hell, other classes have abilities that completely shut down our damage, like shroud and sabre reflect. In return we get nothing that can do that to anyone else. I'm not counting barrier here, because that is a self-cc as well. We need to actually put out the most burst damage to balance our weaknesses. Sorry but a 7.5k thundering blast with a 2s cast time with all the drawbacks that entails (LoS, interrupt,cc), is a bad joke when you are faced with 9k mauls, smashes, takedowns, vicious throws etc. Yes you can proc, chain lightning, but hey procs are not reliable. You can't even guarantee the crit on the blast because the affliction can be cleansed. Smashers get their crit regardless for instance. As the mage archetype where are our mage like immunities (damage reflect, immunty etc),? We have laughable cc compared to other classes. We lost our 30m stun when it would have been trivial to keep 10m on sin and powertech and leave 30m for merc and sorc. Polarity Shift is nice, but really, if they can just chuck a cc on us when we use it, what's the point, if we have to wait until we're at full resolve to use it? Most of the times I'm hitting full resolve I'm in respawn watching it drain away. And would it really hurt to give us back willpower bonus damage to our two melee moves? I'd also point out I think the pvp dps set bonus is rather meh compared to other classes. Madness, parasitism is an utter joke. Now, if it was a proper life leech ability, rather on crits, each tick gave you a decent chunk of health back, or death mark ticks were guaranteed crits, then it might be worthwhile. Force lightning needs to be buffed. It should gain 10% per *your* dot on the target, and if all 3 are on the target make the channel unable to be uninterrupted. Others have mentioned the force regen problem. Yes, instant whirlwind needs to be given back, but not for sins, they have their stealth mez. Creeping terror should be a 5s root, since all the good kiting stuff is in lightning the turret spec It is also a somewhat meh, easily cleansible 31 point talent. And lastly we need to have something comparable to lethality - dots don't break whirlwind and tick for more on targets under 30% health. Oh yes, death field must only eat your own dots. And something to help keep track of dots would be nice, some slight change in the colour or something so you know when you are when there are 3 afflictions ticking. Death field really needs to hit harder. And lastly a PvE thing but fix death field on Operator IX cores already. Lightning, too easily shut down. When melee are in your face good luck trying to cast. TB has to made instant somehow and not based on more RNG proc. Chain Lightning should root for 2s. TB needs to hit harder. Sure when the stars align and everything crits, and you sacrificed a chicken to the RNG God, you put out some scary burst, but that's the problem when you're talking about PvP specs, you need something you can rely on. Edit: oh yes, please please please please please fix the whole casting animation no cast bug. Bad enough trying to get thundering off under pressure only to find you're not even casting it at all.

Logic fail there. LoS is a part of the game, granted. You cannot be LoSing a sniper 100% of the time. And lack of LoS is not equal to facetanking.

So, let's go through your logic. 1) Sorcs are (for the most part - so which bit isn't?) fine. 2) you have a sorc that's available if needed, but surprise surprise you play your sin or mara in rateds, coz your sorc isn't wanted. 3) Sorcs are now viable as they can put pressure on an op healer, and have great cc etc Dude, I don't buy it. If sorcs are as viable as you say, then why aren't you needed?

If you have to start a rebuttal with a condition (ie LoS), then the original point still stands. And who is talking about face tanking a sniper here? The lack of anything to say regarding marauders, is telling in it's own right.

Whatever dude. Don't come complaining when some sniper or marauder rolls you because the rep you want didn't raise legitimate concerns the class has.

One brief moment, which got nerfed as compared to knights and warriors which have been dominating for as long as I care to remember.

My problem with psi is he doesn't seem to think sorcs have problems which are plainly obvious. I've only seen a few like AdmiralParmesan actually tell it how it is for sorcs in PvP, and he ain't on the list.

Yeah, alot of good points, I hardly ever see dps sorcs now (in fact must have quit in disgust over the treatment we get), most are just running heals. We won't be fixed, just look at their pathetic excuses for gutting instant whirlwind on madness, due to "too much lockdown" (lol?) when other classes have a tonne more cc than we ever did. I got my deception sin now and levelling a jugg, (going vengeance - not smashtard), and I'll only dps for a few lulz when the other team is bads and it doesn't matter - most of the time now I'm heals, and I don't feel like a liability as I do in dps spec. *sigh*

yeah, this is basically what I'm trying to say, better than I did.

Lol? big wow, in a world of 8k mauls, takedowns, vicious throws, discharges and 10k smashes. Procs are rng, so whilst what you posted is nice, you can't guarentee it. I could do on about affliction being cleansed so your auto crit goes (unlike say smashtards who get theirs whatever), or Thundering too slow and easily LoSable. How many classes have I win buttons against sorcs? Sins get shroud, Juggs get sabre reflect, Marauders get undying rage No they make it hard on casters, for no good reason. Unless you're a sniper, you shouldn't be ranged dps. And you talk about tactics, when you have no way of preventing being pulled, and if you do you're ganked quickly, unlike all those melee classes that have decent chances of getting out alive. DPS Sorcs have been a bad joke for a long time in PvP and still are.

Yeah, as if that's not enough, worst mitigation, and we don't hit as hard either, if you even manage to get a cast off. I've long thought the interrupt and root should be gone from warrior leap, but yeah not going to happen, they barely need either with the anti-kiting tools they got already.

Nope, conceal might warrant a decrease in the cooldown, but it should have one nonetheless.

and what is stopping you rolling one?

They get crap and it's justified. Knights and Warriors are among the more stupidly powerful classes, in either AC, in terms of the defensives they get and the damage they are outputting and utility. The only reason sage/sorc is "easy mode" as you put it, is half the stuff they get is or next to useless for PVP, but that's easy mode in terms of keybinding, not playing. Make a mistake as a sorc you are probably going to die. Do it as a mara or jugg, well you got a whole array of defensives to keep you up. HUGE difference. I don't know what you "need to keep track of" to play well, coz for me it's an utter joke how easy it is.