LOL Hydraulics on Revan equates to 5-7 GCDS of damage for the entire third floor. Saber Reflects on Floor Vents equates to 600k damage in a similar time frame. They are not in any way equitable. Additionally, yes, Underlurker should absolutely not have Sonic Rebound trivialize cross mechanic. If you're using Oil Slick on Rage Storm, or if you need to use it on Rage Storm to kill the boss, then you have bigger problems. Also, I'm sick of the stupid "PT Tanks are the best" line of thinking. It's lazy. PT tanks, outside of that 5-7 GCDs we talked about are the worst tanks for the damage profile of Revan. Juggs and Sins are better TANKS for the fight. Sins and Juggs are better on Master Blaster. Sins and Juggs are better TANKS for Coratanni. PTs are gods on: Revanite Commanders, Underlurker, Sword Squadron. Sins are god on: Bulo, Blaster Master, Coratanni, and great for Revan. Juggs: Sword Squadron, Underlurker, Blaster Master, Torque (even after the changes I'd rather have a jugg) This change does not in any way wildly swing balance away from juggs. I know many tanks that are top tier that will still play their Jugg over anything else. I've seen these wild twitch streams where guilds think that they are somehow using a non-optimal tank comp on Blaster Master if they don't use PTs or Vanguards. True story: from a mitigation standpoint, PTs are HORRIBLE on Blaster Master HM. Juggs are better, and Sins completely trivialize the fight. /endrant

I don't understand why juggs think that saber reflect should do uncapped damage to the boss. It's ridiculous that it worked in the first place, and I'm glad that it's being fixed. 600k damage in one fight just from hitting a DCD? 6k DPS without any 198 gear? A tank in full tank gear doing 4k+ just from saber reflect? Real talk? In what way do you think you should be able to do that? I will never understand some of the complaints in this game. Jugg DPS WITHOUT cheesing reflect on floor vents can do 5k with good gear, which is awesome damage. Jugg Tanks without reflecting floor vents do very similar damage to the other two tank classes. There's not a single argument to be made for this tuning fix on Torque being a bad thing.

To your first answer: It's absolutely fair that thematically speaking you'd want Rav first to have the second tournament on TOS. But the part where you talk about guilds being in Ravagers but not TOS? Okay, take this with a grain of salt, but approximately ZERO guilds that would ACTUALLY compete in these tournaments with any chance of placing in the top 100 are not at least 10/10. None. And when I say 10/10 I'm not making an HM elitist comment. I mean SM. You're telling me that you gauged the reason based on people that would not be able to compete? I.... dont understand that line of thinking. It's a competition. You can't choose a raid to use as a speed run tourney based on the idea that the people who can't come within 100 places of winning may not be 10/10 SM. To your second: That's fair, but in the future, you need to announce the event earlier, to give time for the rules, then the event. If you ACTUALLY followed through with the event without cancelling or delaying, there would have been a very small window to truly prepare given possible stealth comps, aoe cleave comps and whether or not you have to have a true comp for an SM (4 dps 2 heals 2 tanks) or if you can nuke the ant hill with 7DPS 1Healer (totally possible). To your third: I understand the reasoning behind announcing the cancellation late. No harm no foul. HOWEVER: why cancel? Just postpone.

Why wouldn't you do a ToS run instead? Why would you choose the instance that has more bugs? Why would you wait until today to give this update? Are you aware that this is just another instance of you (Bioware) not following through? Bioware has amazing ideas and concepts, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired. I hope you guys iron out the kinks, because this was a great idea for the casual raiding community. Again, I APPRECIATE you guys choosing to not go ahead with a tournament that would revolve around a fight that can be broken in the final encounter, but you have been aware of said encounter for literally months at this point, ToS is in a far more polished state- Bioware should have chosen ToS.

it's not just pot5. Harbinger has been like this too. It's absolute trash. For over 2.5 years, on any US server, West or East, my connection has always been 4 bars with ping between 65-80. Always. EXTREMELY recently, 1-2 bars, red barring during raid multiple times, and ping swings between 125-350. Provider has not changed, and I've checked how my packets are going out, DNS servers, etc. A few servers in SWTOR are legitimately less stable than before. I hope Bioware announces their cross server solution soon, because it's absolutely unacceptable for me to live in Dallas Texas and have the same ping as somebody in Australia on some servers.

"Is in a better place" does not say "fixed" I think is the important distinction to be made. Without speaking for the devs, I'm pretty sure that limiting the amount of ways you can trigger a bug on Coratanni is the main goal. Regardless, I'm excited for this tournament and I think it's great that Bioware is into more community events.

TBH the fact that it's scaled to 60 has more to do with more reasons for buying the expac (incentive) than anything about keeping it relevant. Xeno is not relevant content in any meaningful capacity. There's no reason to include unassembled tokens. It's easy to get gear, even in SM pugs. As for you saying you don't think you can kill bosses without adequate gear: at the start of this content release, the new HM's, for at least 8/10 were cleared with 186 gear with VERY few 192 pieces. At this point, with so many people having at least 192 gear with mix of 198 (and this is assuming the "lower end raiding population" not the zenith) I would argue you can kill the first two bosses of those instances without new set bonuses, so long as you execute mechanics. If you don't execute mechanics on Bulo or SS, good luck killing them regardless of gear. Here's a more pertinent question: Why do you feel a need for Gree to be relevant? Is it that Bioware deems it should be? Is the only way an event is relevant is if there is a PVE raiding incentive? As someone who is in the raiding community, I don't think we need to be the focus of every single event. Gree is not particularly relevant to me as a raider, but I'm glad that it's back because people do get excited for it to come back in the first place, for legacy weapons, gear, a chance at the red sphere, achievements etc. There are people in my guild who will farm Xeno during the event just at a chance to get the Red Sphere. There are people I know that have 100% Operations that will farm Gree event for World Boss achievements, PVP achievements, etc. The event in and of itself is relevant for other types of play outside of raiding. I agree that Bioware has made missteps in the new raids at times (certain bosses being buggy, loot tables for 16 man being wonky, among other things), but I'm not sure a token drop being excluded from Xeno is one of them. If Bioware responded to this post and agreed with you by offering a token, then I'd be happy for you, I wouldn't get butthurt and go in my corner with a loss on the forums or something, but I just don't know why people think they deserve a part of the loot table of Instance A in mini instance X. I'm aware that Bioware has done loot on solo bosses from larger loot tables in the past, but I could just as easily point out that Bioware changed or tweaked their view on loot and gear in general with this tier (changes to how relics drop in the loot table in 16 and 8, guaranteeing drops on Implants and Ear, as well as not having low-endurance mods for DPS on comms gear like in the past) that would put the As it was, so shall it be again argument of yours in doubt. TLDR Not everything should drop current tokens. If it does, it's all gravy for you. If it doesn't, I don't think you need to tell Bioware that their sky is falling.

Wait, hold on, Xenoanalyst is old content. Why should old content drop at-tier gear tokens? What about Xeno justifies dropping a Resurrected OR EVEN Revanite token? Are you advocating that you include Resurrected and Revanite Tokens in TFB and SNV? How about EC? What about Kingpin Bounty events? How about Toborro? These are serious questions. I don't understand what you're thinking Bioware should do. I don't WANT Resurrected or Revanite tokens to drop from ANY previous content or content outside of the raids. It weakens the loot table in the new raids. The only exception I could think of is Ancient Threat secret boss, which I could totally understand if it dropped random Unassembled loot.

That bird is literally the most annoying boss in any operation to date. HERE TANK ENJOY YOUR KNOCK DOWNS STUNS PINS KNOCKBACKS ENJOY AGGRO DROPPING FOR A WALKABOUT OF MEANDERING WING FLAPS AND I HOPE YOU GET PEARL TAUNTED BEFORE HE DECIDES TO FACE RIP A HEALER WITH A FULL ORDER OF PECKS- if it's not clear, tanks don't like Pearl. Pearl is a DBag.

what started as a back and forth on damage profiles and gear theory has turned into a mathematica drive by shooting

it's not really a bug, it's just the game being the game it always has been. This was common on the Bestia KB on NiM Council. You simply jump right after you get knocked and you can run again. That updates you immediately and you're on your way. As for tank combos, I think people are assuming double PT is this amazing comp, and to be honest, it's not. Using hydraulics isn't necessary, unless your strat is so specific that you CAN'T have people take knockbacks for some weird spacing reason. The mitigation profile for PT's isn't exactly great for Blaster compared to a Sin. Sins are gods on Blaster/Master. Absolute Gods.

The devs said we wouldn't go a year without a new operation again. If I ever have to wait near that long again for a new operation, I'm going to quit SWTOR. And I'll bet good money that many people that raid seriously in this game would too.

It's not really a bug in the Revan fight, it has to do with how hitboxes work in this game entirely. It's much like how on Nefra or On the Styrak phase of Council when you activate force charge or obliterate, you jump....backwards. Because it sort of leaps you to the outer edge of the hitbox, and many enemies that have SIZE have larger hitboxes. Long story short, you can't leap or obliterate on the core. Just how it goes. Bioware can't actually fix it without changing how certain melee moves interact with the hitbox.

PT DPS do not need a jet charge. They are already the most mobile melee class in the game with a rotation that, outside of rocket punch, does not require them to be in melee range. They have amazing utilities, solid DPS and good cooldowns. PT DPS do not need a gap closer. Period.

I think he was more saying you are a 16 man guild, as opposed to saying you did Blaster in 16, but I could be wrong. Since you're in the thread, I want your view on something: How would you feel if Bioware stopped making 16 man content for NiM? What if NiM was only one mode (8 man)? I mean, realistically, there are....2 or 3 guilds that handle HM content in 16 man as their main mode at MOST. What would a group like Buddies do if the raid tuning went down to NiM being only 8 man?

Where is the large emoticon for winking and nudging because the small ones don't drive the point home

It was said on official SWTOR stream that the new HMs would be harder before launch. It wasn't just a rumor. But this is another issue that your situation highlights. They just don't communicate effectively. If you didn't watch the twitch stream or you weren't in the closed beta, you wouldn't KNOW that Bioware had this plan. It would seem obvious to you or me that they (community team) would want to have the raid devs make a post before 3.0 with the expectations and whatnot. The more I talk with people in SWTOR about the raiding in 3.0, it all comes back to communication. Bioware made some really good raids. Now let's work on the communicating part

As for the mouse droids, you have 3 instead of 2, but you also have literally twice as many healers and you know when mouse droids spawn, so the healers have time to tunnel heals into the raider with mouse droids on him, in addition to the raider having time to hit a cooldown. I FULLY admit that KB or Leap + Mouse Droids can kill you, but that can also happen in 8 man (though less often). Now go get those final kill in 16

I mean, I'm all for them doing a raid approach similar to WoW in terms of release schedule etc, but they don't have the money to put into raids like WoW does, so that's an unrealistic view IMHO. As for Revan floor 3, while we think it's definitely NiM level difficulty, "reckon that the last phase of Revan gets towards or is at the limit of what people can cope with" is a viewpoint raised by GM of Death and Taxes, not Zorz. Many members in Zorz have already been doing borderline day-dreaming about what they can do for NiM with floor three. (Just don't let Fascinate design it) I assume that Bioware made these bosses tuned to this level to have the content breathe for an extended period of time. I'd say that's a success overall. I worry at some level about the clearance rate % of guilds, but every time I get close to thinking it's too hard for the average player, another guild kills a final boss. Judging by the list we have already, and I am SURE that there are many more that have not been reporting their kills that are 8/10 (not to mention the countless guilds that are 5-7/10) this content is going to last until either NiM mode, or the next raid. I think that's fine. I will say this though, the SM's are.... oddly tuned. Some fights actually prepare you for HM (Sword Squadron and Bulo) whereas others are dreadful and you would not at all be prepared for the HM iterations (Torque, Master Blaster, Revan being the biggest examples). Overall, I will say that Temple of Sacrifice and The Ravagers make for the best tier of Operations that Bioware has ever given us. I really like where they seem to be going with the game, but I think for them to go in this direction, Bioware needs to communicate the intent of the raid designers to the community at large, because it's clearly a shift in thinking for them.

Nah, I'm not trying to say anything like that! From what I noticed, going back to watch those Coratanni 16 pulls, it's all about triage spike healing. It's not like the Coratanni kill was a joke, if you watch, literally 2 people were alive at the end of the fight. I'm just saying I'm not sure I would say it's wildly overtuned. I'm sure you guys will get it! If your guild full clears 8, as long as you can field a full 16 roster of relatively equal skill level, you'll get the full clear.

Zorz almost 2 shot Coratanni 16 man HM, and killed it within around an hour or so of pulling it. IIRC, the only part of the fight where tuning was brought into question was damage done by the AOE Knockback that Ruugar does at times. Other than that, Coratanni was not really talked about as a boss that's harder. Now, as for whether or not it's scaled correctly? IDK. There are a few things on Coratanni that feel off in both 8 and 16 (how timing of Ruugar's rotation can be delayed or accelerated by things that don't seem to be % based for instance) Overall, the only boss that people in Zorz definitely thinks is harder in 16(some may have other views but as a general rule) is Blaster Master, which while being easier on DPS from a straight #s standpoint, the coordination check of that many people in the same space requires more than 8 man. Even when we consider Revan 16 man HM, Shiv stacks deal LESS damage on 16 man than 8 man somehow. Heaves hit for the same and only hit 8 people in the raid. With double the healers and somewhere along the line of 35% less damage on shiv, and the same damage on heave but only to 50% of the raid instead of 100% of the raid with twice as many healers, it ends up being, in all honesty, a more loosely tuned fight.

If you're implying EM be used on Revan you are on some of that good herb. I'm gonna have to ask you to calm down lol

it works fine. confirmed working in NiM now, without needing to use 3-4 healers in the challenge to pass. Multiple Dread Master runs only requiring 2 healers in 8 man NiM. Consider it fixed.

I think Blaster's difficulty is heavily dependent on how coordinated your group is with positioning. I think Blaster is CLOSEST to the final bosses of TOS and Rav from a difficulty standpoint, but I still think Coratanni is harder (DPS check on Ruugar room is tighter than Blaster)

More guilds to add to the thread: Dxun Rising (EU) 9/10 Titans (EU) 8/10 Manticore (EU) 8/10 The Black Forge (EU) 8/10