Actually the hybrid juggernaut (18/23) is the most tankiest pvp character you can make. You want sick dps, go rage. Or vengeance for decent dps and more survivability than rage. IMO the only reason to go hybrid (18/23) is to tank in pvp, and believe me, you do NOT want to tank in dps gear.

Tanking in pvp is a fun, but thankless job... only your healer ever realizes your value. You hardly get the satisfaction of dpsing someone, and most 1v1s are slow but sure deaths. That being said, your value is realized in heal+tank and huttball. If you keep your healer alive, protect teammates, and play objectives you have fulfilled your role as a tank. I feel your pain with smashes though. We take 100% smash and 50% guard damage (minus taunts/intercede, etc) and as such AoEs are brutal in bringing down tanks. Bioware just made the problem worse by buffing rage... so many juggs have switched now. IMO the 30% AoE damage reduction talent that most classes get should be in the tank tree and not the dps tree. Also the CC immunity that classes get (unstoppable, hydraulic overrides, etc) also belongs in the tank tree. We give up so much damage in return for being a meat shield, at least make us a better meat shield in AoE scenarios and give us some utility w/ situational CC immunity. The AoE reduction in particular is probably a case of a PvE requirement (melee dps taking boss damage) not aligning with PvP.

Being a new assassin, I love watching assassin videos. Here are a couple of deception assassin 1.4 from Elyna, some pretty cool pvp:

Haven't read through more than the first 4-5 posts, but you are wrong on a few counts. I have a 50 jugg, 50 assassin, 50 PT, and 50 merc, 42 sniper... when on my jugg, I ABSOLUTELY LOVE it when assassins pop shroud and try to run through the last fire. You know why? Coz I specced into stagger, and I charge them when they are running thru the fire (takes practice). Stagger w/ charge roots them for 3 seconds THROUGH shroud. Yes, roots still work. And that fries them right there... I simply step out of the fire, and wait for them to die so I can get the ball... Also, you do realize that you can use like ALL your white attacks on them when they have shroud on right? Shroud does nothing against white attacks. Also, for non tank specced (or non hybrid specced) sins, shroud is only 3 secs. Usually I pop it a key times to negate for e.g. PT detonator and wipe his dots, or just pop shroud followed by cloak followed by sprint to escape out. BTW, operatives have evasion (3 sec white damage immunity). That isn't overpowered either IMO. Shroud is far from the godlike ability you make it out to be.

What's even more frustrating is that the cc breaker is on a 2 min (1.5 min talented) cd. And most classes have 2-4 ccs/mezs on sub-1-min cds. Also, like good players, we try to eat the first cc and break when the second cc is applied. However in OPs 1v2 scenario, by the time you are ready to pop your cc break, your health is at 20-25%, making it POINTLESS to pop the cc break (unless it is crucial for an objective). That's because you will break it, and die soon anyway since your health is so low. Better to save my long cooldown break for a future crucial point (objectives), and just die and respawn right now.

Got kicked in the nuts yesterday by a scoundrel while I was glowing silver with shroud. Wish I had the presence of mind to take a screenshot of me puking my guts out while still glowing silver... I was just too stunned (literally) to react.

It's very irritating. On my warrior, I can heal up in tight fitting hiding spots, because I don't move while healing. When I seethe on my assassin, I will bump into the adjoining wall and stop healing. Pisses me off...

Saw this video the other day on youtube... shows a lot of stuff beyond the map in NC...

Here is some food for thought. It isn't obvious whether the damage reduction is additive or not. e.g. say you have a base DR of 20%. Will this make your DR with dark embrace go to 20+25=45? or Will it be 20 + (25% of remaining 80) = 20+20=40 In my experience, if it is the latter, it isn't displayed on the character sheet. I have a juggernaut tank, and the damage reductions due to enraged defense (15%) and unstoppable (20%) seem to stack additively with my base DR. However the damage reduction due to invincible (40%) does not seem to stack additively with my base DR. e.g. I have 52% base DR on my jug when I pop enraged defense and charge to get unstoppable, my DR on the character screen actually goes to 52+15+20=87. I have seen it display 87% damage reduction (which is why im truly immortal with the huttball I suppose lol). Now when I pop invincible, it shows NEITHER 52+40=92% NOR 52+(40% of 48) = approx 70%. The number remains 52%. However I feel more tankier than 52%. Anyway, that was a long post, but hope it makes sense. I think the 25% due to dark embrace/darkswell is applied to the damage after the original DR due to armor, and the character sheet just does not show it.

Because class balance demands that the strongest AoE attack in the game needs both its cost eliminated and frequency buffed... wait, what?! Seriously, as a tank guarding a healer, it was bad enough to get 150% smash damage. I cringe to think that the best AoE ability in the game just got stronger, free, more frequent, and more people will be rolling this now.

LOL, me and another guildie laughed hard as well, when we read that official description about marauders turning into unstoppable wrecking balls.... and one of their specs is getting buffed this patch, good lord.

Thermal detonator, if you are talking about single target.

I try to gear up for HP and defense on my juggernaut tank. A lot of skills that we get as juggernauts, become better with more HP. EndurePain + medpack combo heals more, intercede heals more (w/ 2pc bonus), self heal ticks for more with more HP. Also with all the yellow damage (internal/elem) in PvP which bypasses defense/shield and damage that bypasses armor (e.g. carnage armor pen, PT RS, or internal damage), a big HP pool is a good bet for you. This is in contrast to PvE where you want to get mitigation stats more than HP. That being said, the most important thing for a tank IMO is to focus on protection for your healer. Don't leave his side, and annoy the hell out of the dps that are focusing on him. Healer + tank is a symbiotic relationship, where the whole is far greater than the sum of its parts. A good healer+tank combo can hold an objective for a long time (until help arrives). This to me is way more important than min/maxing gear (i.e. how you play your tank accounts for a lot more than how you gear him up). That being said, dont use dps gear if you plan to really tank, good teams will notice the difference when they focus on you and your healer. As for your questions, this is what I do: 1. Everything pvp expertise based. But could possibly switch out bracers/belt for orange ones in the future (but mod should still be pvp mod with 30ish expertise). You get a lot more health with this. 2. I'm still grinding out my WH set (about half way done) so I haven't switched anything out yet. That being said, I will probably gear for HP and defense more than shield/absorb. 3. I think for jugs the boots are best in terms of mods (but dont quote me on it) 4. 23k buffed/stimmed with about half WH and half BM gear (all augmented). Expertise > 1200.

Probably over-reliance on their internal erroneous metrics? Dunno man, rage was fine as is (except for smash animation delay like above poster suggested). But hey, they are buffing it, whaddaya know!! As a jugg tank I was hoping for some love to the jug tank tree, but I'll jump on the bandwagon and grind out a dps set, to have some smash fun once in a while I guess. I mean it is going to be too good to ignore now. And if you think the rage spec had resource issues (like I've heard some claim) try soresu...

Maybe I misunderstood the patch notes, but the newly redesigned overpower skill does not make any mention of crit... correct me if I am wrong. The previous skill (in 1.3) mentions crit, but the patch notes for 1.4 do not mention crit. •Overpower has been redesigned. It now gives Assault, Battering Assault, Vicious Slash, Force Scream, and Vicious Throw a 50% chance per point to reduce the active cooldown of Smash and Obliterate by .5 seconds per point. Can someone on PTS confirm?

Took them a year to give mercs interrupts. Let's not hold our breaths

I beg to differ. If you want to fulfill a tanking role in pvp, then tank gear is an ABSOLUTE MUST. However, grind out 2 vindicator pieces for the armoring only, since that will give you the intercede heal bonus from the set. I do agree about the endurance augments though, because endure pain, wz medpack, and intercede heal, and enraged defense HoTs all base off of max hp. And yes, unfortunately, shield/defense only accounts for so much. Yellow damage bypasses both defense and shield. However, there are classes and ACs that deal a lot of white damage (marksmen, carnage, etc). Other classes that deal mostly yellow damage, deal white damage as well in retarded amounts (e.g. rail shot for powertechs). Trust me, if you have a semi-competent team focussing on you and the healer, you will see a noticeable difference in lifetime from using tank vs. dps gear on yourself. If you want to guard a healer properly and have both of you live to tell the story you absolutely must have tank gear. I couldn't care less about dps on my tank toon... as long as my healer lives and I play for objectives I've fulfilled my job.

I rarely pve with my pyro, so my comments are pvp specific. And we absolutely must have a gap closer for pvp. FYI: 2 of the most important attacks (TD AND IM) from my *plethora* of ranged abilities are being nerfed to 10 m. As for your comparisons: Assassins ALL 3 specs have sprint to close gaps, and also stealth. Operatives have stealth to close gaps as well. Juggs have charge to close gaps. Juggs can reset charge using push as well. Maras have charge, force camo, predation. We have a grapple on a 45 sec cd which does not work on full resolve or cc immune targets (and ops bosses for what it's worth). Furthermore, no pvp player opens with grapple, coz if you do then you are knocked back and then its over. Ranged classes get roots/sprints and knockbacks (e.g. sorc sprint and knockback). Melee classes get gap closers. (sprint/stealth/charge). Can you seriously, with a straight face, claim that PTs will be ok having to run slowly (at combat speed) within 10m of any other class to engage them? And really, the change requested isn't groundbreaking. IT EXISTS ALREADY for another tanking class i.e. the assassin. All 3 trees have sprint (and stealth) to close gaps, tank tree has pull which needs to be specced into. Is it so bad to request the same thing for PTs? Swap jet charge and grapple. And just like that it will be balanced without making PTs OP with both grapple and charge. And the QQ regarding grapple-stun-burn in huttball will subside, since only tank specced PTs will be able to do it.

bwahahahahahaha just had to laugh at this one

^^^ what he said. My spec is almost exactly like OPs original spec, but I take the 1 point out of accuracy and put it in shien. That way I can up my dps by just a little bit when we need to take down those last 1 or 2 enemies at a voidstar door, by changing stance. However even so, the hybrid spec has crap dps. Make no mistake tho, its purpose is not dps, its purpose is to make you tanky as hell, and a boon to your healer. You can hit 300k+ protection routinely, and 450+ when things go well. You also have many cooldown, which if you rotate well, will make you very hard to take down under focus fire (huttball). EDIT: I'm assuming you play in tank gear as well (and pick up the 2 piece vindicator armoring for the intercede heal).

LMAO, I knew that berserk for rage maras makes vicious slash free, but that is quite ridiculous. Of course, in Bioware's books everything is fine, while at the same time soresu juggernauts starve heavily for rage due to the ridiculous penalty.

Correct, with 4 shockwave stacks and 2 points in this skill, smash is free. Correct, put two points into that, and you have a 100% chance to reduce cd of smash and obliterate by 1 sec everytime you use one of those attacks. Seems too good to be true? LOL, have fun.

Maybe you misunderstood my question. 30% damage reduction aoe taunt isn't what I am talking about. Look up defensive roll for marauders. [reduces damage taken to MYSELF from AoE effects by 15/30%]. It is in the carnage tree, second tier from bottom. What I mean is this... I have to stay close to my healer to be able to guard him effectively. Generally this would mean that I will be caught in the aoe smash from rage specced warriors. Due to guard mechanics, I will take 50% of the smash damage that goes to my healer, in addition to taking the 100% damage that goes to me. Now sure, the 50% that goes to my healer will be somewhat reduced due to any taunt I have applied, but the problem is that I will still take a lot more than 100% damage from the smash. And this will of course bypass defense and shield, being yellow damage. It's not always possible to stay between 10-15 meters from the healer. Especially if you use intercede a lot, and you are dpsing the melee that are on your healer, chances are you will be within 5m of your healer. P.S. I'm not a new juggy, been playing this guy for a long time and I do know what I am doing (generally lol). And I do get decent protection scores as well: http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/rocksjudas/public/459protection.jpg

^^^^ x 10000 MMO mechanics 101 indeed. Really Bioware... what are you thinking? Or should I say, what are you smoking? We aren't questioning the range nerf to abilities. We are questioning why we don't have gap closers like other melee classes, now that we are essentially a melee class. And no, one grapple on a 45 sec cd is not a gap closer. I LOL at any pyro that opens up with grapple.

Why do we not get this talent in our skill tree? It would be nice to get a talent that reduces AoE damage by 30% like the defensive roll for marauders, since we are essentially the same melee range players like maras. I've noticed that when I tank in pvp, rage specced maras/jugs do a ton of damage to me. I thought about this a little more, and realized what was going on. (Besides the obvious yellow damage ignoring defense/shield) I have to also be close (< 15 m) from my healer for guard to be effective. Usually I'm even closer than this. As a result, I take 100% damage from the smash ,and another 50% damage (from the smash that hits my healer thru guard mechanics). This really bothers me as a tank, and i wish Bioware would give us 30% aoe damage reduce ability, like marauders. Comments? EDIT: Vengeance has deadly reprisal, which grants rage in shien when taking aoe damage, but that is hardly the same thing.