Atramar
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Posts posted by Atramar
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well, downside is, you get people going 50HM, 55HM in leveling greens. l55 pvp with lowbie mentality (why guard a turret when I can wonder off, we can take it back, it's MY fun that counts, why call incs before I die, maybe I can kill those 2 by my self, and I'm sure they don't have any stealth with them since I don't see them).
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dunno, i was able to do my weekly on my tank sunday, total of a day 20 games 15 wins imp side. winning spree ended around 10pm, but not cause reps got better.
when you see score board, and my tank have 2 times more total damage then 2 snipers, you just know why you lost....
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Well, tank's job isn't to put much dps, just debuffs, CC, guarding healer, taunts and stopping caps (and carrying da ball).
Don't sell your dps gear, keep it so can respec forVoidstar offense for example.
so yeah, replace all your dps gear with tank gear. While focused you will still have to depend on def cooldowns saving saber reflect either for very important moment, or, my favorite, when I have 20% hp, and 5 people trying to score a 'killing blow on me' and boom. Saber reflect and they just drop
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well, if you want some pt tank things, I started discussion jugg vs PT (so guardian vs vanguard for republic)
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=663060
hope that helps
in short, I'm loving my PT tank, however briefly.. I find jugg more sturdy... both are good, definetly better then assassins (shadows), while PT/Vans getting alot of hate 'roll a jugg lol', they are good and definetly more fun at pugs
remember, when you are 1 vs 1, don't face tank. if you guard a node, KITE and use 30 meters advantage you have. LOS, interrupt, and such. I could dance with smash monkey for 90 seconds until he gave up and ran off (ofc it was team mistake NOT to come at my 'incs', but hey, we live and learn)
however, as much as I love my PT, untill some buffs come, I'm gearing my jugg tank (guardian) to pvp...
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what tanks do on ranked pvp, my understanding is:
stopping caps- yes a tank problem but you have 6 other people with you most time to help stop it
guarding healers- guardian leap beats anything a vg can do
annoying enemy healers and DDs - for ranked you shouldnt be annoying anyone just peeling and only cc'ing the dps on the healer. Maybe using a hard cc on the target your dps is focusing or the healer healing the target but still 5 dps can do that
taunts- vg's aoe taunt is ok since it affects the area around the target not yourself but guardian aoe taunt also gives a bubble to all nearby allies
scoring with da ball. no contest guardian is the best class to score with in the game
so I got that right, cool.
stopping caps, well 6 other people - 4 dps and 2 healers, dps focus on killing healers, so would be better if they didn't had to tab enemy to interrupt caps, PT/Van is better to stop caps due to range
you mean 4 dps, while they focusing healer1, PT can pull and put into uncomfortable place healer2 staying close to his healers
how much is that bubble, never had a chance to test that, if it's near Sonic Barrier from scream, it's about 1.5k right?
no argument there, jugg is most survival tank of all with a set of defensive cooldowns that can be chained nicely, what he can't do, is leap to someone on edge and have guarantee of not being KB'd.
friendly leap is handy, can't argue there either.
on that note, even if I am defending PT's , I do pvp with my jugg more now, there are situations where he is unbeatable hands down, and mezz is nice. still can't tell which one is 'better', jugg is missing slow paired with usual aoe attack (flame sweep), slow/kb/root immunity, and stealth scan (not to mention shoulder cannon), while on PT I miss friendly leap, full set of cooldowns, and that 6 second mezz (not to mention saber reflect).
geez...
@NamikazeNaruto:
very good explanation. Thank you. will meditate on that
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This thread is pointless, anyone who has played rateds since 2.0 will tell you tank vg's are useless sorry to the fan boys but its fact. No way you would use a vg tank as the main tank or use him as node guard/off tank.
Anyone who disagrees hasn't played ranked or plays on a server where the only ranked going on is one team smashing pugs
Ok. Why.
Your argument isn't technical. You just say 'jugg for ranked, VG/PT sucks and who dissagrees suck'
unless you are trying to troll us.
what tanks do on ranked pvp, my understanding is:
stopping caps
guarding healers
annoying enemy healers and DDs
taunts
scoring with da ball.
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Anything a PT tank can do a Jugg can do better.
well, jugg can't stop caps from multiple people while rooted. can't stop caps while stunned (novare coast, south, enemy sends a grenade and 4 people are capping, and has trouble supporting from distance (So he's guarding healer withing a range of guard, stopping caps from 20 meters, and throwing a taunts, pulls to distract enemy).
nice dig on 2.4 changes. can I 'has' some?
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please don't feed trolls.
sorry :9 I forget my self sometimes.
please accept my sincerest apologies
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And he still can't provide an answer that matchmaking won't consider group composition into play.
premade roflstomper wants roflstomp matches.
perfect premade with win 100% will be punished by weakest possible 'other 4', so no matter of best composition on earth, they will have to effectifly play for 2 each. so premade is 4x 100% win, will be grouped with 4x0%(so definetly muppets^5) win, against 8x50% win ratio. (just an example)
with field respec, it's quite impossible to account composition.
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Hate to do it again but Jugs have one 3 sec hard stun, 1 4 sec hard stun and an AoE mezz.
In the tanking tree they no longer have channel Choke.
No, no. Please do. I'm person who likes to know when he's wrong and takes counts for his errors. Thanks
again, forgot about force choke... and after pull it's root not stun.
noted and first post changed. cheers
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VG's don't have an AoE mezz they have an AoE 2 sec hard stun, Guards have an AoE 6 sec mezz
VG's can interuppt a cap while stunned/mezzed with Shoulder Cannon, Guards cannot.
is it me or Carbonize changed. Just now I've read description and figured I was wrong
thought it was 6 or 8 second mezz...
I feel such a noob at times like this.
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theorycrafting on which will be better in 4v4
Jug brings more CC, which should be able to help get kills and stop damage easier. Pull doesn't really stop damage, because if you are pulling a melee off their kill target, you are also probably going to be out of guard range. Pulling things into you and getting kills though, I mean that's definitely a thing.
I think PT's best asset is hold the line, because that ability makes it harder to separate a PT tank from his guard target, whereas a team can more easily knockback and chain root a Jug tank out of guard range while stunning their kill target and he won't be to do anything about it except taunt. Not as worried about this if you bring 2 cleanses for the jug tank. I think all 3 tanks will have their pros and cons. They are pretty similar in filling their role if you think about it.
Juggs give same CC as PT, one hard stun, one aoe mezz, PT has one aoe slow 50% spammable and one 70% slow for 15 seconds on area (iol slick), and stealth scan (4xstealth teams any1?). Even less I would say as PTs hard stun is 10 meters long, and juggs 4 (plus PT pull means 3 second of hard stun). So when I want to stun one target who is attacking healer, I have to walk up to it.
Pull has a + on 4v4 when you PULL (and stunns) enemy >healer< into your rage jugg friend. Did few Jugg runs now, and I can say, while having a cooldown for any encounter, I could not stop 2 caps already that would be no problem for a PT.
5 seconds of reflection is a slap to 3 people nailing you, then mezz, and we have 13 seconds of life.
that is really tough peace of a rock to bite...
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Put up 800k damage all the time as AP / Tactics. Go figure I would have done 1.2mil easy on a Mara or DPS Jug.
A tank specced PT / Van has less defensive cooldowns than a Mara / Sent, puts out less damage than a Jug, and are outdone by Sin-Shadows on node guarding. Remind me what it is we do again?
The only things remotely unique are Hold the Line, Harpoon, and Shoulder Cannon. HTL is fine, but I can't count the number of times I have shot someone with Harpoon while they are in the open only to have so much of a delay on the drag that by the time the drag actually happens, they are behind LOS and it just bumps them against the corner they just went around.
As for Shoulder Cannon, in tank spec "it's a defensive Cooldown." Trollololo ok, we get a 20% heal in the form of 4 rockets that MUST hit, at the fastest, over 4 seconds. Compare that to a Jug who pops Endure and instantly gets more than that in bonus health, or a Mara who pops 99% DR, or a Sin that just straight up vanishes and walks away.
Bring the player all you want, but at the end of the day, PT / Van is below average in virtually every possible category except PVE tanking.
Indeed, harpoon is buggy way to often. shoulder cannon I really preffer to keep as a must to stop caps, nice thing about it is it doesnt have to attack in front (as we all know it;s impossible to turn around while stunned) but. can be los-ed
I woulnd't call it below in virtually every possible category in PVP, I did list a numbers of pros and cons, Like Voidstar:
6 people at respawn, 1 person mezzed on right, other team is capping both doors. I run to right, default attack + dart, hold da line, run to other door, DFAB. doors saved (noted, other team is plain stupid to leave a tank in a mid alive not mezzed, but I think I got some hits that would suggest a root intended, possible my resolve was maxed, was to focused on interrupting to notice). I can't virtually imagine doing that on any other tank (jugg could do similar, but not explosive dart + interrupt 3 seconds later)
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As far as I'm concerned, if an Ewok isn't offered as a playable race, what's the point of spending RL money on it? The kawaii factor of having an Ewok companion? Puh-lease. I'll pass.
by the numbers posted, it will be super tank (not by durable, but by smart aoe and some weird taunt system), and a super healer (by numbers)
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This.
However I will throw out my opinion.
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Thank you very much. I forgot about shorter CD on juggs/guardians jump, think it goes 1.5 second every second of being attacked? and of interrupt. will add it to my list.
Will probably give a good pvp WZ spam on my jugg as due to impossible odds, I managed to do weekly on all my 3 pvp chars in 3 days (pugs only, win after win, after win, win and DC, joined lost game, win , win, end so on), so I might add some more stuff.
please keep pros and cons coming, all are appreciated
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I get the ball first practically every time. It's rare another scoundrel beats me and I get there with almost all my energy. Again, you're doing it wrong.
I will look into that, thank you.
I guess you always wait to be atleast 90 energy till next roll?
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So you're not using adrenaline probe once you grab the ball just for the sake of 'giving the opposite team a chance to do anything'. Yea right.
This ability is insanely OP right now in the huttball. It's not even close to the force leap (need to have a target. 30 sec CD), force speed (2 sec buff only, 15-20 sec CD), evacuation (60 sec CD).
For me this should've a few sec CD at least. It would be perfect if it would cost not 25, but 33 energy. I don't mind this ability as it is, just the fact that it doesn't have cd and cost relatively little energy.
adrenaline is 2 min cd, yeah I guess moving back is an option, but If I'm alive and have time, I preffer to pass back to a tank and hope he will not run thro area of pass (or jump to some one) - mark, I talk pugs, not preamdes/ranked.
force leap is 15 second CD and can be folowed by push + jump, that can lead to incredible combo : jump, push, friendly jump, jump = score (or variation of these).
25 energy on 100 energy pool with regen 6.6 per second it's quite something (since under 60 energy we regen only 5.6, and lower you get, slower you get it back).
forcespeed doesn't consume energy and you can jump doing it.
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Reason for that thread is , I keep hearing 'jugg main tank, sin for nodes', PT's seems forgotten, or called 'poor mans jugg, poor mans nodeguarder' while I feel quite oposite.
while with movment immunity, it's nice set of tools, and ridiculusly easy rotation, it's very good to control warzone, off guard a node (see shoulder cannon - anti ninja) or even main node guarder with LOS and 30 meters cap disturb.
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You're doing it wrong.
If I want to be first, there isn't much I can do differently. doing it slower risks KB
well, saying 0 energy, it was overstatment. 30-40 would be more accurate.
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getting ball first means nothing, usualy when I do it, when I have ball I have 0 energy and all I can do is to pass it back (if I'm still alive as atleast half of other team is shooting at me and Ican't heal my self lol). Rolls with the ball are quite short aswell, one good thing is getting top walk and roll down to pass fire, but sprint can do that too, if not better (jump).
one place it's really OP is voidstar. break doors, roll to the bridge, you can cap it fast and get to next doors before respawn kicks in.
same goes for AH, but on slightly less degree (as damage is easier to repair then VS)
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Opinions? Which one as a Tank in over all 4 warzones and possible arena (dunno if there is a point of thinking in 2.4 as we might get some balance in the way)
for the sake of argument, we can assume assassin tank is guarding, as they are fab guarders - with sap they buy 8-16 sec more time while others have to face tank and kite.
both can jump, both have aoe slow. both have one cc breaker.
my opinion:
PT tank:
pros:
30 meters range support/cap stopper (34 if we count DFAB at max range + radius) - great in middle door of voidstar combined with root immunity,makes it efficent to kite+cap break (ofc there is a risk of getting mezzed out of 10 m range)
pull - very usefull to get thins off healer, ball carriers, etc. - specced roots target.
ranged aoe taunt (so can taunt a group from 30 meters)
6 sec 30 s CD on movment immunity
exploding dart (when feel that sin/operative going to stealth soon), good for breaking caps too.
spammable aoe cap stopper+slow+dmg debuff
stealth scan (good for making sure no one goes to fast in voidstar, or to scan for possible threats in huttball)
can break caps in mezz/stun (a bit mute if we already have designed sin tank)
aoe 15 sec 70% slow + 30% debuff on 1 min cd.
easy going rotation, energy/kinetic mix of attacks, generaly not hard to play efficently, can support healer from distance.
dots (anti stealther) that slow.
aoe hard stun, but short (2.5 s)
cons:
not many def CD's
not as durable as jugg
respeccing to DPS less viable then it used to be
lack of aoe mezz (see aoe hard but short stun)
jugg:
pros:
very durable, many def cd buttons including saber reflect which is awesome.
aoe armor debuff+accuracy debuff on 12s cd
spamable aoe slow
friendly jump
taunt gives shield to friendlies (my jugg atm 1225 hp worth it seems)
in stun def CD which has it's limitations, but it's generaly nice for pvp when 2 stealthers jumps on you.
force push + refreshed jump
self shield (even if it's just 1.2k damage) every 12 seconds.
easy going respec to push good damage as smash monkey.
jump interrupts and has shorter CD while being attacked.
2 hard stuns, 4m and 10m (force choke)
aoe 6 second mezz
cons:
limited range cap stoppers - can't 'save the day' on voidstar middle doors, limited kite + stop caps style, only one 1 10m attack on 12 sec cd, one 30 meters attack.
limited aoe cap stoppers
generaly limited range
no unstopabble
no mezz cap breakers, only one cc break.
did I miss something? which one for rated (and why), which one for PuGs (shorter why).
Don't get me wrong, I love my PT tank, and my post is probably more PT 'fanboi' sound, but I'm looking for balanced opinion, as I would like to improve my pvp tanking usefulness, and my knowledge of RATED PVP (in general) is very limited (only did few matches on varius chars).
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And, if Scound/Op stays the same, 1 if not both will occupy the healing slots (if indeed they let more than one heal in there). Mando/Merc heals don't really bring the same level of healing throughput in PvP as the other 2 ac's.
on a small range (4 man team) Mercs should do just fine. specially with 360 degrees KB and 30 m in combat 8 second mezz.
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sent you a PM. looking forward to it
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we have neither currently in guild except one that is for raiding and he dont pvp, only option we have at min is a guildies alt jugg but has zero gear and hes a great dpser on other classes so not to keen on losing him to playing a tank.
most of our guild is pve focused but recently theres been a huge surge in interest in pvp so im trying to get a decent team put together, we have a few that are dedicated to pvp but unfortunately none are tanks lol
well, my guild is full pve/social, and I don't have any pvp squad, I have limited time in game (posting on forums during debugging codes or deployments/waiting for feedback etc), if your guild doesnt mind 2 guilders, maybe we can arrange something.
I have jugg tank who I retired from pvp after PT got shoulder cannon (and pt is far nicer to play pugs), so need to gear her up (only comms, I have tons of augmentators and kit-9s and can do endurance eugments 28 pink), or, I have almost fully geared PT tank who is good to go.
besides that, I have pvp assassin deception (dps) and pvp operative healer, both geared. rest of my chars are pvp-able but not geared, as I tried to focus on 3 chars only. but I would swap just one-max two) main char(s) (rest can be chained thro friend list) - if you would be interested.
usually around pvp 9pm for 3 hours unless I'm doing something else.
please don't feed trolls.
Double exp weekend
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by Atramar