So the people who grind for weeks and get nothing are supposed to feel better because someone else ground for less and got all their gear? For some reason that does not make a lot of sense.

Just a hint, when a 50 veteran PVPer owns a new 50 PVPer it should not be because he does 30% more damage and takes 30% less. That's like saying because I played Streetfighter longer then you I should be able to turn up the handicap and nerf your health bar. And then gleefully claim I "owned" you. PVP should not be a grind contest.

Preach it brother.

No. That's really not it. We had this problem throughout the BETA. They ADMITTED that the class was by far the most "developed" as they put it and that they wanted to raise the other classes to the level of Sorceror/Sage in regards to how powerful and flexible they were. We said "Oh ok good! We look forward to it...." It still has not happened, but Bioware is making good changes so far. I am confident they will get around to it. Looking forward to the Guardian/Juggernaut buffs they were talking about.

If I wanted random loot I would go PVE. If I grind, I should be able to buy what I want. This is why I miss SWG. Need PVP gear? Go find the crafter and pay him money you can earn with some honest work. Random loot is asking for frustration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnCsnt53oKM&feature=youtu.be

I want to know what they are going to do about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnCsnt53oKM&feature=youtu.be

I am sure all of this is just some strange coincidence. It could not be that the class is too powerful. I still remember full beta on the Revan server I was on and how the Sorceror/Sage class was doing really high damage. And the same kind of people who are hammering on this OP now were raging and insulting and trolling anyone who pointed out that there was clearly something wrong. Eventually a developer revealed in one of the threads that there was a bug that was causing only classes who's damage was not based on weapons (Therefore Sorceror/Sages only) were doing the proper damage in WZs due to a bug with the bolster system. And that there was in fact a huge gap in the damage achievable by that class then any other class. So even in the face of an obvious bug, the Sorceror community was viciously trolling anyone who dared to point out that their class was clearly OP. And kept repeating the mantra of "My class is fine, you just need to learn to play...." And even after the developer revealed the truth, some of them STILL argued that they should be doing that much more damage then everyone else. Come on, this is like suggesting you are super leet because you win with Eddie Gordo on Tekken.

I am sure all of this is just some strange coincidence. It could not be that the class is too powerful. I still remember full beta on the Revan server I was on and how the Sorceror/Sage class was doing really high damage. And the same kind of people who are hammering on this OP now were raging and insulting and trolling anyone who pointed out that there was clearly something wrong. Eventually a developer revealed in one of the threads that there was a bug that was causing only classes who's damage was not based on weapons (Therefore Sorceror/Sages only) were doing the proper damage in WZs due to a bug with the bolster system. And that there was in fact a huge gap in the damage achievable by that class then any other class. So even in the face of an obvious bug, the Sorceror community was viciously trolling anyone who dared to point out that their class was clearly OP. And kept repeating the mantra of "My class is fine, you just need to learn to play...." And even after the developer revealed the truth, some of them STILL argued that they should be doing that much more damage then everyone else. Come on, this is like suggesting you are super leet because you win with Eddie Gordo on Tekken.

This video shows how pathetic Ilum is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnCsnt53oKM&feature=youtu.be

There is a new "generation X" culture of Pee-bottles involved with PVP now. And their elitist attitude is so pathetic. Pee-bottle: In the documentary film "Second Skin" an obsessive gamer reveals that he at one time urinated in a bottle to avoid having to get up from the computer. Though not every person who fits the description of "pee-bottle" actually does this, it describes the kind of gamer who's entire self esteem is wrapped up in being "leet" in a video game. Generally these people have pathetic lives in person. Teaching people or taking the time to help people is actually looked down on by these people. They seem to think this makes their faction strong. I have never had any problem spanking people with this attitude but they tend to gravitate towards OP classes and will use their total lack of a real life to grind out gear faster then others and then claim it's their "leet skills" that wins them fights. They are usually the most nasty in arguments about if their pet class is OP or not. The phenomena is common to people who want to set up a social situation wherein they can somehow be elite or "better" then people who have not done enough to kiss their derriers recently. It's not unlike the nonsense that the "in crowd" does in high school. What is worse about this, it is hurting the community in general. Guilds do not work together, they compete against each other for bragging rights. And it is not working out for us in the long run particularly in the Republic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnCsnt53oKM&feature=youtu.be Because they all want to claim they can stand alone all by themselves. And while that might work in WZs, it is a recipe for getting crushed in world PVP. These people think they are the ultimate gift to PVP, when in reality they are ruining it. And most of them are nothing if they do not outgear their opponents.

Always refreshing to see someone point out to the idiots who think they are "leet" because they have gear that they are winning nothing but the grind race.

lol The problem is you have no control over who is in your WZ. So you can usually only get 4 people who are actually working with you. So it does not matter if you know how to play, if they don't, you lose. Often. And that simply is not entertaining.

Leadership of the faction is impossible. At least on my server. There is nothing resembling community. All of the guilds seem to be in competition with one another. The elitism is absolutely ridiculous and nobody is working together.

Apples to Oranges. In order to accomplish what you see in the screenshot you take a FOCUS build and gear for DPS, and basically dump a lot of points into Force Sweep enhancing abilities. In order to get those numbers you have to prepare by going through your whole Force Stasis/Choke, down all the consumables you can, and hopefully get your sweep off without being blasted in the air before you execute the move, or before your opponents move out of range. Operatives and Scoundrels can just walk up behind you stealthed, down the consumables, and two or three shot you. The most you manage to do most of the time with this effect for Guardians is you lower the HP of a lot of people so that other people can actually kill them. The cooldown on Force Sweep prevents this effect from doing anything that even remotely compares to Ops or Scoundrels.

I am getting this but it is only certain skills. My Force Stasis frequently requires a few clicks to get it actually work. And in PVP this can be really really annoying.

Yep, Pee-bottles need their ego fix. Pee-bottle: An adjective for an obsessive gamer who places their victory in a video game over all else. Deludes themselves into believing that the victories they get due to being willing to waste more of their life doing stupid repetitive tasks in some way mean they have accomplished something in life. In the documentary "Second Skin" one such player revealed that he peed in a bottle so that he would not have to get up from the computer. The PVP version of these players frequently play OP classes, use exploits, and rabidly defend any unfair advantage they have. And always claim that if their opponents simply learned how to play better their advantage would be irrelevant.

Preach it brotha!

Well said. It is actually refreshing to read that for once I am in a thread where I am not the only person willing to stand up and shatter the delusion that gear based PVP somehow makes someone "hardcore".

*Standing Ovation* I absolutely despise PVE. I am not a PVEer who wants to casual PVP and automatically be equal. I am a PVPer who wants to fight people with timing, well thought out builds, and teamwork. The measure of a PVPer should be in their skills, not in their grind. Gear based PVP is a CRUTCH FOR BAD PLAYERS. Not the other way around. You whipper-snappers and your dependence on gear to PVP. PVP is not a grinding contest. People want to be able to get the "I win!" button by just doing more stupid repetitive tasks then the other guy. Rather then putting the time in to duel, practice and study to perfect your build and strategy. Keeps coming back to the Street Fighter analogy. These people insist that everyone who plays against them gets the -50% health handicap. Then they brag about their leet skills when they "win" because of it. And they claim only people who have no skill actually want to start at 100% health like them. Seriously, winning at PVP when you outgear everyone around you is not anything to be bragging about. Hardcore PVPers don't need that advantage.

Yes. Because losing over and over and over again solely because your opponent hits three times as hard as you and takes no damage from you is not entertaining. I wish the powergrinders would stop acting like it is the duty of everyone who has more of a real life then them to die over and over again for their entertainment. If the gear was either A. more easily accessible or B. not as relevant the the curve would be far more bearable. I for one love close matches where you have to fight hard the whole time. But matches where you start to feel like a grey mob to the people you are fighting against are only fun for the minority of people who have no kids, jobs etc who seem to think they are entitled to an "I win" button because they spent more time grinding. Then they act like they have in some fashion "accomplished" something. It would be like playing Street fighter and insisting that everyone you play against start with a 50% health handicap and then bragging about your leet skills when you consistently win all the time. Ridiculous.

So.... What all of this brings to mind, is the people who railed on BW for not releasing the game. They freaked out hardcore and yelled and screamed and threatened to never play. They insulted the developers and they all assured us that they would keep playing even if the game was not finished. The venom in posts demanding that the game be released now was outright nuts. And now we have posts like these. I wonder how many people quitting now are among the people who were demanding the game be released too soon? I wish I could go back and find some of those threads and bump them now and remind those people that this is partly their fault.

Finally....

The light at the end of the tunnel....

So, my first and still in my opinion best MMORPG was Star Wars Galaxies. PVP was impacted by gear, but not in the way that we see here. There were a few factors. 1. Player crafter based economy. No random loot drops, no farming player kills to get your gear. All you had to do was save up money and buy what you needed, which you could do through solo PVE if you had to. (One exception was some really bad DOT weapons, but those were nerfed eventually) 2. The gear even when you had it only made up for about 10-15% of your PVP effectiveness. And even if you were way outgeared, you did not get stamped out like a cigarette your opponent was finished with. These two things allowed everyone to at least enjoy PVP even if they were losing. And you could participate in a meaningful way even if you were not geared at all. Gear was an edge that helped, but it was an edge, not an "I-WIN!" button. What I am noticing here is there are people who qualify for the term "Pee-bottle". Now, if you don't know what a Pee-bottle is, watch the documentary "Second Skin" which is about obsessive gamers, who sometimes quite literally will pee in a bottle rather then get up to go to the bathroom. (This is not a myth, I have even seen evidence of it from a former roommate of mine.) They feel that "More time spent doing repetitive mindless tasks means that I should win, all the time." The kinds of games these people like are basically a scheme. He who grinds most, wins. They encourage this. And the reason why is their self-esteem is directly linked to doing well in these games and seeing their character's names high up on the score boards. The fact that it required nothing resembling skill is not something they will generally face. In fact, these people will brag about how "leet" they are. And are generally really quick to troll anyone who points out that they are a delusional loser who is "winning" because they happen to have less of a life then the people they are defeating. Some of them are almost cult-like in the way they behave about it. People who can't win need to "Learn to play" even if they are playing a bugged class that is not working right, or even if their opponents are playing an OP class that is not working right. There is almost no limit to how far these people will sometimes take the delusion. I still remember to this day during full beta on the Revan server for a while there was a bug that was causing only Sorceror's and Sages to do proper damage in PVP. It was not known this was the issue at the time. But the community recognized there was a problem and complained about it to be met with these types of personalities trolling and insulting them with the various "Learn your class, nothing wrong with our class! You just need to learn to play!" crap. Finally a developer came forward and exposed that the reality was that the bolster system was not properly bolstering weapon damage. So classes who's damage was based on weapons were not doing damage properly. Did these people who endlessly smeared and insulted the people who pointed out there was a clear problem with the damage that Sorceror/Sages were doing fess up and apologize? Of course not. And in fact, some of them continued to argue that the damage they had been doing was just fine the way it was. I had done a poll called "how gear intensive do you like your PVP?" with several options. The votes were overwhelmingly in favor of gear not being more then 10 to 20% of your overall effectiveness. I guess the question is this, will PVP really evolve into "he who grinds most wins!" if so I don't see how they are going to make this into an E-Sport at all.