^ truth. But to OP's original topic, I actually enjoy PVP on this game a lot. Sure there are tons of things to complain about, but I swear part of that is on purpose so all the anal retentive people have something to ***** and moan about during the day when they should be working (classic example being me and this post I know). Main is a 64 gunslinger in the top pvp guild on my server, but I've raided up to nightmare (everything except buggy *** Soa) so I can optimize damage given the diminishing returns in expertise stacking. I also have a 27 scoundrel and 22 merc (both healers) that pretty much only PVP. Some people complain about the easy mode aspect, but I think it's nice to be able to enjoy both PVE and PVP without having to decide between which I can spend my limited free time on.

Expertise is tied to the armoring, which is still locked into the set pieces until 1.2. Where do you get expertise on your enhancements?

Ditto. I'm full BM (with sprinkle of rakata pieces to maximize dmg - 552 exp = 10.8% pvp boost), but when I swap over to my PVE set it's actually pretty similar. I gain around 13% HP and 9% dmg. OP notes that he's playing in non-tiered PVE gear but expects to be competitive against tiered PVP gear. The expertise isn't the issue. It's the tier vs non-tiered, where stat difference is the whole point. The expertise just makes it look like they're closer in stats than it seems - I go from 16.3K HP in PVP gear to 18.5K HP in PVE gear and I'm guessing his "best available non-tiered" PVE gear only gives him 12K or so (and you can probably scale damage similarly). If anything PVP tiered gear is easier to get than PVE tiered gear if you're skilled. By the time I hit 50 I had a group of solid PvP friends and guildies who knew I could handle myself in WZ's and vice versa. We geared up together pretty easily. If your valor is way behind your level, well everyone had to go through that grind. Now, if the complaint is that you shouldn't have to grind out for gear in order to play in PVP, then you'd still end up with the same complaint against raiders with their full Rakata gear. A solution for this would be to make everyone's stats the same when they pvp, which I actually kind of support, but then you'd get even more forum blasts about who's OP and who's nerfed too much. But since that was not implemented, BW rightfully needed to get a way to prevent hardcore PVE raiders from coming into PVP and rolling everyone.

Will be worse after 1.2 (worse in a good way IMO). I'm going to be an astronaut with 2 blasters Marking is fine. Marks that persist after death probably shouldn't be in PVP, especially since those marks blow up at distance. The fact that I can see which door my primary healer target is going on Voidstar before he does anything feels kind of gimpy.

you must have missed this other thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=339254&page=63

I had extra BM commendations as well, but couldn't find a use for them. Ended up swapping 3 of my BM enhancements for Sentinel Champ enhancements - they have the highest Crit/Surge and I only had to sacrifice a bit of accuracy (seriously +51 on every BM armor piece?) and endurance. My ranged accuracy dropped from 101% to 99%, but most of my damage is tech, which I have +10% bonus anyway. 41%/74% crit/surge after the swaps with no drop in base or bonus damage. - Wyatt Earp (64) Dirty Fighting Gunslinger

This is a much more convincing point than the garbled punctuation and caps-lock mess from the OP. Thanks for rephrasing.

Trolling the quitters here, to a degree: Disclaimer: - I'm in a heavily PvP focused guild and role mostly in premades (can't wait for 1.2 8 mans) - I actually do mind, but I always try to find the silver lining in any situation - There's a clear distinction between habitual quitters and people who get lagged out, their power goes off, or more likely, their IP hiccups. Reasons: 1. Habitual quitters make my blood boil - sometimes I'd rather we lose just so they don't ever get a win 2. Habitual quitters are more likely to be poop in many ways - they don't have friends that are good and will role in a premade with them 3. Habitual quitters are more likely to have crappier gear (habitual quitters valor up slower and get gear slower) 4. If we're losing, I'd rather they leave so someone that is likely to be better, in terms of gear and effort, will join. I'd say roughly half the games where a habitual quitter has left in the first minute because we got scored on first, they capped 2 nodes first, or the 1st door got armed, we've turned it around and won. We all know who habitual quitters at the first sign of trouble - I'm looking at you Aussi and Baren (Corellian Run).

Thanks for the love. I'm a gunslinger that likes to play sweeper. I try to keep our ramps clear so they can't get an easy pass forward. My hunker down/pulse detonator combo is pretty amazing too for clearing ball-carriers+escorts when they make it over to our side, as long as teammates have been silly with their CC's way too early and given them a nice full resolve bar.

And why would they be healing themselves? Because they probably have a mark above their head. Healers are PVP tanks. They suck up the damage and focus fire that would otherwise be tearing you apart. Sure, geared healers that are good should be able to toss heals around while keeping themselves up a bit, but at the end of the day they're still giving you net positive health relative to the other team's damage, even if they're bad and they just die quickly. Show more love for healers. I'm usually top 3 DPS/kills/killing blows - I always tell people to vote heals if they do at least 150K.

Wyatt Earp. Yup.

I'm going to go back and try out SS to get your perspective. My concerns are mostly around the damage being mitigated by armor. But then again, I don't target tanks anyway if there's a healer or dps nearby. My kills/killing blow ratio is usually better than 2 to 1. So I don't just go around dotting people and running off to let the ticks rack up +300K. That just doesn't happen. The dots only do real damage if you layer your full rotation and "trololol" wounding shot. Otherwise they're just utility for cap interrupts. But yes, as a SS I will still retain a lot of that ability since vital shot is instant cast. I don't really have a concern over mobility for SS since you should always be resetting to gain LoS, rebuff ballistic shields, and insta-cast charged shots. The only issue is natural cover. That mechanic is just too unpredictable in the heat of battle. Just as an example, trying to pulse detonate people away from a door cap but failing because the cover roll throws me into the block next to the pillar on voidstar. Having to consciously remember now to target people first feels cumbersome. But we'll see. Basically we both agree though that GS is a great class for PVP and not as dipsticky as a lot of people on this thread think.

My apologies - it was an observation without elaboration. Pubs in the warzones I've played in on Corellian Run haven't. There probably are though, and if I ever come across them on my team I'll chew their ears off for being ******s and let everyone on the server know they're cheaters.

I wish they would color code the doors. "Inc blue" or "inc red" would be a lot less confusing.

I've run across this a few times too from the attackers. What was new two nights ago was that the defenders started doing it to keep us from arming. I haven't noticed any of the pubs do it, only imps so far.

I like your mindset - tempted to go back to try SS now that I have much better gear than when I switched. The only thing I'm wary of is being crappier against heavy armor. How do you do against geared merc healers?

Different strokes for different folks. I think SS is more "braindead". Roll into cover, armor debuff, aimed shot, trickshot, charged shot, trickshot, uncover, repeat, speedshot, etc. What "different" types of burst are you referring to? I guess I do have to pay more attention to where the game is going to throw me when covering - ever go to a lower level in Huttball NEXT to your target when you wanted to stay higher and out of reach? You only get Vital shot as a SS (and DF specs for longer Vital). Shrap bomb's 3 target DoT is quite a difference when outnumbered at a node. There aren't many who know that you have to cleanse a DF's dots or try to interrupt Wounding Shots. If it stays that way, I don't mind. Top 2 of damage, kills, and medals (for a non-healer) in 2/3 of my wz's is not a bad thing.

I stopped reading when he kept referring to getting "acommidations". But I imagine this is a rant about reduced RNG chance of getting Champ gear from someone who is not 50 and doesn't know what getting gear was like before this patch - to which I'll add a different perspective. If you are not yet 50, yes it would seem that your acquisition of T2 PVP gear will now be a lot slower. This is a relative comparison though. As a valor 59 about to hit 60 next week, I have yet to come across a Champ mainhand. I have had to buy with commendations 1 relic, earpiece, implant, belt, and chestpiece as these have never dropped. I have these Champ spares sitting in my bank or on my companions: 3 offhands, 3 gloves, 2 boots, and 2 hats, and 2 bracers. Other less lucky people will still have holes in their gear in terms of T2 that they've plugged with T1. Luckier people are running around with full champ (although they should mix in 2-3 pieces of columi to get the most bang, but that's a different discussion). The changes to the RNG and commendations means you have more control over which Champ pieces you get. Given my experience, I'll take that over the frustration of getting the same items over and over. As a whole, I think this will make the disparity between RNG lucky versus RNG unlucky people a lot lower. For new 50s, the gear gap between you and the multitudes of BM and full Champ players is going to be huge at the beginning. Nothing around that. Just clench your cheeks for a few weeks.

Get some gear, switch to Dirty Fighting. Profit. Okay, not that simple, but hope the comments below can keep some of you gunslingers progressing a bit before completely giving up on all the fun I am having in PVP. Disclaimer – I have not played the Saboteur tree because I’ve had so much fun and success with DF since hitting 50. This is the build I use on Wyatt Earp - Corellian Run: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#700bZbIZGbbkrrhdhR.1 I'm valor 59, BM by next week, full champ gear on left, champ offhand, t2 pve mainhand, champ/rakata mix on the right. After 500 expertise you start hitting diminishing returns when selecting pvp gear versus equivalent pve gear, so the rakata subs make a lot of sense for me (our 4 piece bonus is kind of lame). Implants/earpiece typically sacrifices less of your primary stat for expertise. Relics only sacrifice endurance for expertise, so if you're starting out in PVP, I recommend getting those first. Play-style and goals vary a bit depending on wz, but as a nasty DPS with heavy ranged spike damage and aoe dots, my priority is to help focus down healers/solo non-tanks/objective denial. Yes, Dirty Fighting is heavy ranged spike damage. I haven't taken the time to read this entire thread because it's surprisingly long given how few gunslingers there are, but I've seen a couple of posts about how our DoTs get downplayed b/c of cleanse abilities so I want to address that first. DoTs to kill - Our DoTs don't kill. Hemorrhaging Blast + DoTs + Wounding Shots kill. Our damage output is backloaded and depends on a very specific rotation, unlike sharpshooter, which opens up high, but can run into a lot of mitigation. Bleed damage is internal -> DF is tank killer/melts everything else. I usually won’t even try to use the above rotation for anyone under 6K HP because it would be wasting energy and dmg potential. Full potential in a ranged opening with a distracted opponent (healer trying to heal, tank/dps on our healers): Crit relic->hemo->shrap->vital->sabo->wounding->speedshot->quickdraw. Of course ideal almost never happens. It's up to you to use the your CDs properly in different situations (example - cutting off your wounding shots cast to interrupt a heal cast, or not wasting your energy on an enemy low enough for your teammates to kill). DoTs as objective denier - Our DoTs are tiny. The only time I throw DoTs around individually is if I am outnumbered while protecting an objective. The extra seconds that your ticks buy your team can be critical. Defending a 1 v 4 on CW side point? Easy. Just DoT away, do as much dmg as you can and fly back with your DoTs still denying them the cap. If your defensive CDs are up, you can get in 2 cycles of this easily solo – plenty of time for help to get there. Energy - unfortunately this is the highest energy use of all 3 trees meaning your consistency is severely handicapped if you don't have the gear. Once you get 35% crit and a crit relic, Fighting Spirit starts to pay off. Bravado from Sabo tree helps too, and if you have the PVE 2 piece bonus, the extra instant 10 energy every once in a while to get you to a higher recharge rate is not shabby. Judicious use of Cool Head is also needed. I try to save it for 1 v 1 or big fights where I throw out an XS. There will always be situations where spamming your basic attack is all you can do, or running away and recup. Survivability/utility - between hunker down, pulse det, dirty kick, flashbang, leg shot, bubble, dodge trinket, and a ranged instant interrupt, we actually have a lot of survivability and utility if used correctly. This doesn’t mean you should run at other players gleefully cackling. Knowing your opponent and what they can do, as well as what to stay out of – I won’t expound on this as that’s a basic for any class based PVP. As DF you also have a lot more mobility than SS, but you still do have to go into cover sometimes to throw in a Sabo or speed shot or use your Hunker. Skill points – To get the most out of DF, you need hemo. Most of the tree just logically flows, but I’ll point out a couple of choices I made that depend more on playstyle. I take Feelin’ Woozy for the slow to help with kiting/chasing or making larger fights more frustrating for melee. Dirty trickster sounds great, but it never worked when I specced into it, so I don’t. Per the above, Fighting Spirit is a must. I take Hold Your Ground instead of Quick Getaway because of the extra utility of more Pulse Detonators and the fact that situations where I get CC’d usually means I’ll die regardless (love the chain stuns). I debated between Sharpshooter and Independent Anarchy and have settled on IA. I just feel that the accuracy that Sharpshooter gives you can be acquired by gear a lot more easily than 15% increased dmg from Sabo and ALL AOEs. Getting a +3K crit on 3 out of 4 slow fools from my XS is a wonderful feeling. IA also makes adding that Sabo charge to my kill rotation worth the energy cost. If you read all that, thanks and apologies for being wordy. I didn’t think I would respond to this thread but after reading a few posts I felt compelled to defend/promote gunslingers and DF in particular. In short, we are great if geared up and awesome if geared up and played well. Unfortunately the PVP in this game is designed so that playing well without gear is almost impossible – I feel sorry for anybody I run into in a WZ with less than 16K HP (clear indicator of not enough expertise gear). It’s an instant win unless they get heals. Sure, it might take me a little longer than a scoundrel scrapper, but I can sit back and pick them out of the crowd without risking my neck as much and move quickly to other targets. Lastly, public service request for PVP: PLEASE rebuff constantly. Don’t waste time looking to see if your teammates are need it. Just click the button while running around. I find it amazing how often I have to ask people to rebuff – 5% boost to your stats seems like a no-brainer.

Just lost a Voidstar match because an Inq on the other team somehow glitched into the door and planted the bomb. You could see him, but could not target. Same Inq did it again on the next set of doors, so no, it wasn't by accident. Anyone else come across this?

They could use some tips from Riot. LoL has some of the best player incentives/punishments for good/bad PvP behavior.

seems appropriate: http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/gallery/haters-gonna-hate/haters-gonna-hate-pink-stormtrooper.jpg

It feels like Bioware is trying to strike a balance between accessibility (significantly less grind) and end-game saturation, which I think is a great concept, albeit clunky in implementation. Taking the random rolls out of the bags in the current scheme would mean every level 50 can be fully geared in about a week, which some people might actually like, but that's a different discussion. Making the commendation requirements higher pulls you directionally away from what will satisfy the primary revenue drivers (who are, let's face it, casual gamers who abhor grind), which is counter to the general trend of the genre and not something you can really argue against since you're not paying some nonprofit for the chance to swing a lightsaber at other people's online personas. Personally I think PVP rewards should be skill, not grind or grind+luck related, and would welcome a ratings based system. Even if the rewards don't result in significantly better gear, some recognition, like titles, aesthetically different armor/weapons, nameplate differentation, etc. would suffice. Because, after all, don't we all just want everyone else to know how good we are at PVP? Oh yeah persistent combat logs. Please. Seeing how consistently I faceroll that one Marauder with the stupid name makes me happy.

It's called resolve. Or the rest of your team helping out and keeping the other team off of you. Everyone has this problem, not just scoundrels. As a gunslinger I don't have an instant cast knockback, but I make do with whatever I can. My favorite is watching 4 of the other team shepherd the carrier across the catwalks and then legshotting the ball carrier in the middle of the flame grates. Doesn't kill them, but usually enough to make the next aim shot an instakill. But, sometimes the carrier has their resolve bar up from prior cc's, so that doesn't work. Or, I'll set up on the other side of a flame grate while they're waiting for the flames to go down and if they're stupid enough to try to cross, I'll hunker down and aim shot them off.

It's even more satisfying to dirty kick, run to the right position, and aim shot them off the bridge. Knockback that isn't instacast and takes prep feels that much more rewarding.