The reason people are leaving has nothing to do with the points you posted. The reason people are leaving is because of boredom. The Endgame in SWTOR in both PvE and PvP becomes nothing but extreme repetition with minimum rewards after you do it for only a few weeks. Roll with some elite buddies and ruin people in WZ after WZ after WZ, finish raids on HM, and then... uh... roll an alt!...and do it...alll...over...again...? Maybe I'll just check out this other game over there I haven't tried yet. This is vaguely the problem/logic a lot of endgamers are running into. People crave new things to do and endgame in SWTOR doesnt doesn't deliver much of it.

You're missing the entire point I'm making. This thread isn't a tech-help thread. I'm not looking for alternative scenarios regarding these bugs. Here's the deal - Bioware implemented these wonderful things that require teamwork and coordination to complete on higher difficulties. Ok, cool, 8 people plan ahead to take time out of their week and manage to find just one or two days where they can all be on at the same time for a few hours. That's no easy feat for us, all of us have lives that aren't in front of a computer. But we still manage to do it because we like this game and want to experience the shiny things Bioware put in this game, specifically to challenge and reward people who can manage to come together and cooperate like we manage to. Then, after much anticipation and waiting and group forming, we all get to Operation area...and bugs don't let us play. That is extremely disappointing. People do not like to pay money to be extremely disappointed. I will continue to do so, for now, in hopes things get better...the point of this thread was to let BW know how they're making a lot of their fans feel right now. The only ways to get problems like these to change is to either A - cancel my sub, or B - let BW know that these problems are worthy enough to cancel my sub, and hope they fix them. I'm going with option B for now.

ominousz are you really hitting up the ad hominems now? Saying I need to get out of the house? Maybe you missed the part about how we can all only raid once or twice a week - that's because we all have jobs and things to do. You're really gonna say you've been gaming for 15 years, then follow it by saying *I* need to get out of the house? Really dude. I've got a million retorts for this but I'm not interested in flaming going on here. How would you prefer these issues be handled? If nobody talks about them, how can we ever expect they'll get fixed? Maybe Bioware didn't catch them in testing? Maybe they think nobody knows about them? Maybe a million other reasons it is perfectly rational to point these things out. Anybody who says this game - any game for that matter - deserves no criticism, especially when it's intended to ultimately make the game better, has no idea what they're talking about. If you want everybody to stay in the dark and not discuss these things then you are personally asking for this game to fail. I wish for it to prosper, myself, and that's why I point these things out - so they can be fixed.

From the looks of the current game situation I'm not even thinking this is sarcasm. He probably does.

What if the bug does actually break the game by making it unplayable? Because that's what happened. These bugs prevented us from raiding entirely. We could not even start. We will now have to wait a week before we can try again, but our group of 8 can only meet on tuesday and wednesday nights. Game-breaking is not a dysphemism in this scenario. It is actually game-breaking. If that's not fixed soon, why are we paying for this game when we can't play it?

And as far as game-breaking goes, you clearly never put together a group of 8 people who can only manage to collude once or twice a week for a raid, then have the raid bug out and not be possible to play. Then tried a different raid, the only other one, and had THAT one bug too. These bugs literally broke the game in such a manner as to make it unplayable. That is EXACTLY game-breaking enough that people shouldn't have to "wait for BW to tackle it." That's so bad I cannot play the game. Why am I paying them money then? I pay to play the game, not sit on my thumb and wait for it to be fixed. Finally, some people think putting on a blindfold and gag and ignoring problems is the proper way to get them to be fixed. I disagree with those people.

Same problem with me. Gotta love internet censorship. And it's only going to get so much better with SOPA! Which, lol, has not gone away despite the media making you think it has.

How do we know the issues will get fixed if we don't bring them to light, and the Devs never say anything about them? You have to understand that this post is intended for the betterment of this game. I'm not complaining, I'm asking for sustenance. If nobody brings these things to light, then Bioware won't think there's anything requiring fixing. And that means we shouldn't be here right now. We want to stay, and that's why these things are spoken out about. Keeping a blindfold and gag on about all the problems is just a surefire way for them to never be fixed.

Be careful what you wish for. When you say "All of you people that are like the OP", you are addressing a huge number of raiding players with growing disillusionment, and that number is growing every day. If you want all of them to leave you'd have a game with a much smaller playerbase and it would just be shrinking as more and more people came to experience endgame content. We'd rather stay and see changes for the better. If we don't speak out about these changes we want, then we'd have no one to blame but ourselves for never seeing them. We have to speak out; it's how MMOs grow. Player feedback. Telling us to "get over it" when we're spending our money is extremely immature.

Probably not. But I wasn't pulling a Palin on you, I just haven't had coffee yet.

I'm on them, believe me. And the future updates things. Yeah. Those are the crumbs I was talking about. We need a lot more than that. We need the game-breaking problems to be specifically addressed. And we need the broken systems to be specifically addressed. They haven't been so far.

Let me preface a little here. I was an early access player, day 1 of it. I had per-ordered super early. I got into beta weekend after beta weekend. I was soooo stoked about this game. I convinced a RL buddy to purchase it after release (he's still on his way to 50, testing the waters) . SWTOR is something I've been looking forward to for a long time, and when I finally got my hands on it, I was pretty happy. Leveling up to 50 was a blast. Level 50 was a blast for a while too. I wasn't one of the people who got there super-fast, but since I played from day 1 EA and knew most of the pre-40 content from the beta, I still got there decently fast. Was raiding EV after only a few weeks there with some friends I made in the community; now we're all in the same guild. At the moment I have a full set of Columni/Rakata gear for and from PvE raiding, and a full set of champ gear, 620 expertise for and from PvP. Same with most people in my guild. We're all afraid we'll be quitting SWTOR soon and searching for greener pastures =/ Afraid is a key word there. We don't WANT to leave SWTOR. We are all similar-minded people who loved SWTOR and want to keep loving it. But you make doing that so damn hard, Bioware! Yesterday we tried to do a HM EV clear followed by a HM crack at KP. Bugs wouldn't allow 2 of our people to get into HM EV. They weren't saved. Hadn't set foot in there. They restarted the game, then their computers, no luck. There was sadly no option to reset the instance for some reason, either it was removed or it is another bug. So we went over to KP, figuring we'd just try that instead. Now, two different people bugged on the shuttle trip inside the Operation, and it wouldn't them them enter the main area. Same thing, restarts, reforming, ect. No luck. Just flat out not able to get in. Unfortunately, this is far from the first time we've experienced game-breaking bugs in PvE. From bosses dropping no loot to bosses bugging out every attempt and resetting and not letting us progress, to boss kills not counting for daily/weekly credit we've had more than our fair share of rage at this game so far. Should I even go on about PvP? You know how many complaints you're getting in that department, you hardly need another one. From the lack of/broken OW PvP to the pure-Korean grindfest that is Valor, where's the innovation? The system needs massive changes and you've thrown us only crumbs so far, and those crumbs are not feeding the hungry beast that is your PvP fanbase. Bioware, I don't hate this game. I want it to be something that occupies my time for years to come! I want to get immersed in this world and have fun, but from a AAA title game, I'm honestly shocked. Bugs that prevent us from playing (ie the EV/KP bugs)? PvP with ZERO innovation from previous established titles? Bioware, what the hell is going on? But what hurts the most is that I don't hear anything from the Devs. I don't hear "Guys, we know there's some really big problems and we promise we're working on them. We promise we're making changes. We promise we're close to fixing these things." Instead of admitting there are problems you act like nothing is wrong with this game! And that's what scares me the most! And what might, ultimately, drive away me and several other fellow customers who wanted to love this game. I implore you Bioware, please....give us something! Give us hope for the future! Changes! Stop pretending like nothing is wrong! If you honestly believe nothing is wrong...that's a sign we need to stop wasting our time here because things won't ever get better. =/ I have faith in you guys to turn things around (the changes required aren't exactly sweeping overhauls...but they are pretty big), but we need to know they are coming!

That's pretty damn tanky dude. But yes, to answer your question. The math has been done post release, and the tanks acted thusly when it came to how they tanked - - Juggs/Guards were the avoidance kings, highest defense rating, second highest flat DR, lowest abs/shield rating. Absorb shields and flat DR abilities. - Sins/Shadows were the shield kings, highest shield rating, good absorb, lowish defense rating. Self-heal abilities. - VGs/PTs were the mitigation kings. Highest flat DR, second highest shield chance, mediocre absorb, lowest defense rating. Accuracy reduction ability.

I read this message as - "The Developers promised you fantastic PvP - to quote 'having some of the most experienced PvP developers on our team' - and many of you who got to 50 are discovering this to pretty much a straight up lie. Now granted, SWTOR was always going to be a PvE-centric game, but still, there were heavy promises that made it sound like PvP wouldn't be put on the back burner. Now you're discovering that's not true, and you're leaving because of it? What, you can't just learn to like boring PvE grinds that are even more mindless than PvP? Really guys? Why can't you just be more like me - easily amused by simple things and willing to look over the huge glaring problems and lies?."

I agree that PvP is a team event and would love to use that as an excuse to not be nerfed (and I *do not* want to be nerfed, to be clear), however... When you compare all the classes of this game, or any MMO for that matter, there should never be one class that can say "all things being equal between me and anybody else, I will nearly always win a fair duel." That's just not....fair. But I can say that right now. As to melee classes... Lightsabers do energy damage which is mitigated by our heavy armor. I have 42.5% energy mitigation from armor/expertise. In turn, my RS ignores 90% of their armor, and elemental tech attacks ignore their armor entirely and cannot be shielded or avoided. That's a *massive* difference between how much we can damage each other. They're constantly doing 40% less, I'm constantly doing full damage. Friendly advice - you know not to backpedal, but to strafe, right? If you reapply your CGC snare and strafe properly melee classes are absurdly easy to kite. And drinking in their frustration is sweet, sweet juicy goodness. If you spec into Degauss to remove their snare it's even better.

To be completely fair coming from a Pyro in with 620 expertise...I think we might actually deserve a nerf somehow...as much as I hate to say it. The reason is just because there is NO CLASS I fear in a 1v1 duel. I was in an Alderaan not 2 hours ago, we won, held 2 points most of the game. Towards the last few minutes I decided to check out the point we didn't have just for shiggles. It was guarded by a lone Sage with the Battlemaster title. I killed this Sage FOUR TIMES in fair 1v1 duels, in a row. That is how I occupied the last few minutes of the match, just shaming this Battlemaster Sage in fair duels, then waiting for her to fly back to do it again. The 4th try she ran straight to a red PvP buff before dueling me and I still murdered her. Battlemaster Sages/Sorcs are about as good in 1v1 fights as it gets... Until they meet a Pyrotech PT. Guardians/sentinels? Murder them. Gunslingers/Scoundrels? Murder them. Sages/Shadows? Damn do I murder them. Commandos? Murdered in the face. Shield or Tactics Vanguards? Yeah, murdered. Assault Vanguards, my exact class counterpart? Fair duel. Do I have disadvantages compared to other classes? A ton of them. Are they enough to make me think twice before attacking any class? Nope.

Ahhh yeah, also when a shadow tank force pulls you to them. Thanks Mr. Tank who's armor and shield chance provide no defense whatsoever from most of my attacks. I appreciate you giving me a first class trip to your side.

Kolto Overload is 15% health over 10 seconds, when you can spec in Pyro to reduce its CD every time you get a crit off, and you crit all the time. I'm popping KO constantly. Rakata medpacks were the other big source, but since the last big patch those no longer count towards your healing score. No more Medic medals for me =/

Pyro ftw - http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/screenshot2012010911075.jpg/ Having tested Pyro/AP/Hybrid specs considerably all I can do now is lol at the AP fans. "But...think of the utility! THE UTILITY IS KING!" What utility? 10 sec less on grapple? 8 seconds of physics immunity? Yeah that sounds perfectly fair for trading half my damage potential...totally legit trade-off. Of course to be fair, after the lol comes a sinking feeling of "I wish they'd buff AP, because I do love the playstyle more than Pyro..."

Retractable Blade gives roughly the same damage per heat than a non-critting Thermal Detonator, only it does it over time rather than instantly (bad). You also lose your chance to stack a 3-4k TD crit (which is far more valuable than RB) landing at the exact time a 3-4k RS crits for insane burst damage. To get the most bang for your buck with RS you want it to hit exactly as a TD is going off. You sort of need TD to do that. The former build would increase RS damage very slightly (an extra 100-140ish Aim is not that much added damage to RS, you can grab that with a rakata stim) at the cost of negating massive burst potential, the latter build doesn't even increase RS damage.

Right choice of faction had nothing to do with his compulsive grinding a WZs from level 10-46 and never doing anything else. Although I still have serious doubts that is possible. I know a guy who got from 10-50 by mostly PvPing, easily 80-90% of his leveling was by PvP...and he was only Valor 45ish by the time he got to 50...

Consider the following: going full Pyro you still have 30% mitigation from armor and 12% from expertise in full champ gear, meaning 42% energy/kinetic mitigation and 12% everything else. Considering tank stats like defense/shield/abs are often ignored entirely in PvP, full Pyrotechs are in many situations nearly as tanky as a full tank, and because you're never guarding anybody, often significantly more tanky because your buddy isn't being beat to death. The "utility" gained from other specs often comes at the cost of 100k-200k less damage done per game, easily more if spec'd high into ST. When that utility is often ultimately aimed at helping you kill people (IE the point of a lower grapple CD is so you can grapple people to melee range more often to kill them), this idea of sacrificing all that damage for said utility becomes entirely counterproductive. At least, according to Math it is. Exceptions are utility in the form of survivability such as flat DR or Guarding a healer and utility in the form of anti-CC when you are carrying a ball in Huttball.

It does gimp your DPS. To maximize DPS you require a 4/6/31 spec. The spec posted on the previous page that ignores 6% chance for fire abilities to crit and 3% tech crit are ignoring a fairly large chunk of damage, considering Pyrotech is largely a fire/crit/crit damage-based spec. Gaining 2% fire damage and 6% Aim is not a fair tradeoff for 9% less chance for IM/FB/CGC to crit and 3% less chance for RS/TD to crit.

Oh ok, good. That made no sense otherwise. Although AoE damage is still valid damage... I don't know why people invalidate it so much.

nm chars