When I'm busy maximizing my dps I'm not staring at someone else to see what they're doing. I've seen people who have about the same gear as me and it seems like they're attacking all the time, but I can't babysit their visuals while I'm fighting the boss. That's what meters are for. You can spot really bad players in smaller groups, but the bigger the group gets (or the more going on, on the screen) the less likely you are to be watching other players unless they're dps'ing the wrong target or not swinging at all. Watching to see their rage levels and if they are doing rupture while looking at their dots... Seriously? You want someone to do that instead of a loading up a parser and evaluating data afterwards? And I'm not talking about obvious signs like people not getting out of fire, or not moving away from the boss, or not getting on the designated target quickly... I'm talking about people who just don't use the proper priority system. You know, I had a friend in EQ who would make the animation to cast a spell on his mage, then cancel at the last second. He'd do this every so often because he didn't want to pull threat. And you think you're really going to catch that? I cannot fathom you're reason for excuses here as to why you'd want to do this archaic and inefficient system rather than having everyone in your guild run load up a mox parser. It's the new age, sir. Much easier to analyze from an automated system then stare at someone during a fight... It's much easier to review real numbers via uploading torparse afterwards. You can see what their dps % per ability is, how often they used it, miss rates, crit rates. Much easier than watching someone during a fight. ... though, seirously, I can't believe you're trying to get people away from meters and instead watch people during a boss fight. This complaint is really from a long time ago. Back in MC WoW days when it was 40 people. And my guild was too small so we did a 3-guild combined run and this other rogue wasn't in my guild so it's not like I could tell him/her to step it up. But I remember them being like #25 on the dps... out of 40... which usually has 4 tanks and like 8 healers. Yeah... he/she was that bad.

There are meters... they are 3rd party programs just like people use in WoW or Rift. Any guild raiding can require all members to use it... so isn't the problem solved?

There's nothing wrong with a bit of competition. It makes you work harder. Again, it's a great tool, even in that standard. It's only people who start using aoe when they shouldn't to pad meters and cause problems for the raid, or don't run out of fire when they should... but, once again, that's a problem of the user, not the tool. I just don't understand the people who want to ban the tool because some users suck. And no, just because a boss dies am I satisfied. Ever since I've been in WoW and there were meters, I was annoyed when someone was the same class as me and doing 50% of my dps. That's really unacceptable. Coat-tail riders are just as bad as top dogs who constantly post their numbers.

Because you cannot have a class that tanks, heals, and dps's 100% like you can with a group or operation it will never be balanced properly. Also, raiding's difficulty has a lot to do with coordination, something that's trivial in a solo game.

How about, "No"? The problem, at it's core, is that 3rd person games are not very good for PvP. With the games being partially gear-based and partially class imbalance, you'll never get optimal PvE in an MMO. WoW, Rift, ToR, etc, can try to make these games PvP, but it's a PvE-based game with PvP a large sub-feature. That's the honest truth. Look at this game compared to, probably, the realest PvP game there is: chess. Chess gives each player the same gear and skill set. The only imbalance is who gets to start first. This gave has imbalance and class skills and gear.

We're sort of digressing, but I sort of disagree with that mentality. Sure, there are people who will improperly use it, but it's a useful tool. The people who are going to focus on their dps too much will still run their own personal meters... you can't stop it. So what's the difference if you are also a part of the logs?

I can too, but it's still not going to happen. BW seems to favor a "agreed upon standing" that only those who voluntarily submit their logs can be analyzed. To be honest, I've never seen a good player not be willing to subject themselves to a dps meter, but, in the end, for me, it matters not. Most guilds I know will not let you raid with them unless you're part of the meters so it sort of fixes the problem for me.

448 add'l to Main Stat and 280 add'l End is not obsolete. In Story Modes it's not really a big deal, but if you want to be taken seriously in HM's then you try to maximize your character. Not maximizing shows laziness and a lack of desire to improve one's own performance. In pre-made group settings those people tend to value themselves over the group and are generally undesired for the circles I socialize in.

It's not going to happen. There's too many people who are against it because: 1 - They don't understand that their terrible dps hurts the rest of the group and don't understand that not carrying your weight is not fair to the other people you're grouped with 2 - Have had to deal with immature players posting their numbers multiple times after fights to show their "superiority". As it is now, it's as good as it's going to get. This tool allows guilds and such to evaluate their members abilities w/out affecting those who do not want to be audited.

Regardless of the buff being 845 or 1600 power, how does any of it make sense with BW's past behavior: 1 - Why would PvP relics be BiS for PvE? 2 - Why would BW encourage such high levels of burst in PvP? Look back at previous examples where they got rid of "on-click-power-gain" relics for PvP and replaced with static, flat power as they felt it was too much burst in PvP. Look back at how, they had to add flat power to PvE relics after the change to PvP relics because, for a brief time, PvP relics were BiS for PvE'ers so they had to fix that too. So why would you honestly believe that BW would want to go against that philosophy now?

Are you talking about how people (like me) want these relics fixed or the people upset that it's getting fixed? If you're talking about people like me, then I can assure you, there's absolutely no reason PvP relics should be BiS for PvE.

Isn't the top tier 1 still BiS for PvP? So why would you refund that one?

Well, then they can submit a ticket and hope for the best. Good luck to you people who didn't believe it would get resolved. Unlike the PvE relics where we didn't know about this until after purchse, I'm pretty sure everyone who's stacking double PvP relics clearly knows what's going on. It's just silly people are blindly ignoring how OP it is when you can have 4 power surges up at once and pretend like it's a nerf. Yeah, sorry complainers, you're right. It's a nerf when someone is knocked down from stupidly OP to normal, working mechanics. My bad...

To who? People who filed a ticket? If that's the case, then file a ticket to get 400 non-rated WZ comms back.

As I just stated in the previous post: To your lower-tier version that cost a whopping 400 WZ? I'd say: No. Did they give a refund when it was discovered that different pve procs a damage attack relics were based on differing types of crit? Nope. So why would you think they'd do it for 400 little non-rated WZ comps?

They won't make it refundable. Why would they? You would only stop using your Ark version which costs 400 WZ comms when you PvP. And if you only got them to PvE with, then it wouldn't make sense to let you refund it as it's still only going to give you a WZ comms which can only buy PvP items. Also, can't remember the last time they let your items suddenly become refundable again when this happened. I'm not arguing that there's plenty of other things BW should have fixed by now *cough, ability, delay*, but I still find it silly to think that they wouldn't change these PvP relics. You're not fooling me if you don't think they are ridiculously OP for what they do. I know they're grossly OP. That's enough for me to know they need a fix.

This is how it happened before. They removed the on-use from PvP before and made them flat power gains because they felt the on-use versions were too bursty. ... Then PvE'ers figured out that the flat power was better than on-use. ... Then BW had to add a small amount of flat power to the PvE ones to balance and make the PvE relics BiS for PvE again.

Not sure why you're arguing with me. Someone stated, "As a "solo" player you can get endgame gear but it will take some time. All you have to do is que up for hardmode flashpoints and do at least three a week." I was just correcting them that there's limits to that method and you cannot get all the gear that a raider gets.

Nothing to do with skill. It's the fact that you cannot have everything in this game catered to your play-style. You cannot get PvP gear from running Ops. You cannot get top tier PvE gear from solo content. You cannot get black color dye by spamming the jump bar on the fleet.

Wrong again... You cannot get highest tier crafted. In fact, you can't get anything from the top-end crafted, currently Ultimate level. So no Ultimate Level Armoring with Set bonuses, no MH hilt of Ult Level, no Enhancements that are itemized correctly that are Ult Level.

Yes, perfectly acceptable to see Snipers and Marauders get 4 power surges at once, giving them over 1300 add'l power... Yeah... that's perfectly acceptable to think that wouldn't be corrected. Um... no... it was foolish to believe it would remain quiet. Just like the water from the Magenta Crystal quest... was it right to see some Marauder with top healing in a fight simply because he's running through fire constantly spamming the drink? Nope. Was the water and fire working as intended? Yes.

Did I miss you responding to my post because I clearly answered this:

1 - Your suggestion is something I've suggested a long time ago when people were debating between PvP and PvE gear. My solution was very similar: a) PvP and PvE gear have the same stats at the same weighted stats b) PvP has expertise, PvE has mastery. They work exactly the same respective to PvP for damaging players and PvE for damaging mobs c) Expertise only works in Warzones and FFA PvP areas, Masterly only works in FP's and Ops d) Open world neither Expertise nor Mastery work, so both players are on equal footing when world-questing 2 - As I stated before, my problem with adding the Soloist group is simply the same rating level of gear. A hilt at a higher tier is still a dps upgrade for someone strictly on the fact that it's like a 50+ bonus damage jump, something that the stats on the hilt do not make up for in the difference between PvP and PvE. So, if there's now this soloist version, all raiders and PvP'ers would simply do soloist work, grab their higher hilt and use that until they've maxed out all other gear. All they'd need to do a buy another set of boots and now they're weapon is top-tier with just a slight reduction in stats on one piece of the mh weapon. Therefore, no, I don't agree with it.

Common Sense: So rare it's a super-power. Seriously, I couldn't care less of assumptions or not. All I know is that the relics were broken in how OP they were, they're fixing it out instead of leaving it in it's broken form, and anyone upset at the time invested is talking about 1 week of pvp questing. Which is worse: leaving it as-is so that a few aren't inconvenienced for the week of pvp'ing they did just because it's been this way for 2 months, or fixing a broken mechanic in the game?

How long have you been playing this game? Ever seen a class changed after it's been live? Clearly, it was WAI before, but still got changed. It's "cute" casting a blind eye towards previous such scenarios and acting like it's never happened before. Seriously, it takes a week to earn both relics if you aim to just do the daily and weekly PvP quest. If you want sympathy, I think you need to hang out in the "Operative DPS for PvE" support groups for a bit to see how long they've had to sit at "WAI".