1 - You cannot get on-proc damage relics. You can get click-on-use, but not the former. 2 - No, you can buy ilvl 66 mh ones, but ark are ilvl 69 and ult and ilvl 72.

Um... when did this exist? How "old-school" are you talking about because I think you'd have to go back pretty far and then I think you wouldn't have the "Interactive living breathing world" that you're talking about.

Yup. /10char

I never said it was unthinkable... but it is a bit naive. It was like PT's on the PTS where the hybrid spec was pulling number VASTLY superior to any other classes spec. Clearly it wasn't a bug. And, for all accounts and purposes, it was WAI until the devs changed it. But multiple people on the forums knew that the spec was broken and assumed as much beforehand. Seriously, I'm not sure why you're debating me. It was fairly obvious to me, all of the people in my guild, and many others on the forums that it was grossly OP and was probably going to get changed. You're not going to convince me and have me say, "Oh, you're right... that weeks effort you made PvP'ing to get both of the relics really shouldn't go to waste." As stated before, the water you get from the Magenta Crystal Quest was pretty OP and took a couple hours, but I wasn't upset that they nerfed it. It really did need to be nerfed.

Sure, I'm tired of it too. But acting innocent and feigning ignorance at this change is sort of silly when it was obvious on the PTS. We cannot assume everything in game that isn't on the Known List or isn't directly addressed by a dev is "WAI". Lack of communication is a very different problem. That's why, in my post quoting the dev I asked for specifics of what the expected change is.

Not entirely true. You cannot get main-hands, relics, or set bonuses from the comms you buy. Plus, comm items have lower-grade Enhancements in them compared to their token equivalent.

Honestly, if you didn't see it as grossly OP compared to other relics, then you were really fooling yourself. I was going to work on getting the top-tier version to pair with my lower-tier PvP relic, but didn't feel I wanted to waste the effort when I knew it would be fixed. Much like the water you get from the Magenta Crystal quest, it was going to get fixed eventually.

Not really feeling this still. The fact that upgrading the rating on our hilts is the single-highest dps upgrade I can get would trivialize those drops in raids. Do you realize that 30 less on your main stat is 6 less damage, but the jump in teir ratings is 50+ each level? That's significant. This game is not a solo-player game. Do not confuse this with KOTOR. This game is not going to be catered around your play-style.

Can we exact clarification: 1 - When you say "type" you mean that that these are the different types: Proc Power Proc Damage Proc Defense Those are 3 different types, so if you have a Proc Power and a Proc Damage, then they shouldn't interfere with each other, at all, correct? So, essentially you could have one attack proc both your power and your damage relics. 2 - The on-proc damage relic also states that it gives a 4.5 second global lock-down. But this should only affects other "on-proc damage" relics as well right? I don't want a on-proc power causing the 4.5 window on my on-proc and I don't want the on-proc damage causing a window on my on-proc power. 3 - Currently your pvp ones can proc from both healing and damaging, individually. I want assurances that the power surge gained will trigger a 20 second cooldown, entirely, on any more power surges (through healing and/or damage), not just on each one. That way you can't get 2 surges active on one relic (Snipers and Ann Marauders can do this with ease). I just want this spelled out because I don't like assuming you guys are on the same page with us and then come the patch that releases the "fix", it doesn't really fix it the way we assumed it would be and you guys come back and say it's now "wording as intended" and we were wrong to assume otherwise.

I was quoting the other guy specifically because I was agreeing with him. Even though he was directly talking to you, his point, in general, is my view to the OP and to those that feel that this game should be a solo-player game. Point-blank, it's not. It's not KOTOR 3. I have seen the argument in this game far more than I have seen in WoW or Rift where people who play MMO's want to get everything while never playing with anyone else and it really baffles me. To use an analogy I've used before: this game is a lot like joining a basketball league. You can't win the trophy playing solo, you can't have the team or the tournament play around your schedule, and just because you pay a league fee doesn't mean you are the one in charge. You're paying a league-fee like everyone else. The fee let's you play in the league. It doesn't give you the right to change rules just to suit your play-style. If you don't like taking jump-shots and can only dunk doesn't mean that you should earn 3 pts for a dunk and cry it's unfair. And that's my basic viewpoint on a lot of criers in the MMO world. They show up to the league games and expect to be handed a trophy just because they decided to practice their free-throw shot for 10 hours a week...

I hate to ask, but are you in the wrong stance and using "Shii-Cho" form when popping 'zerk?

Yeah, I'm not sure why people try to play the RL card... that they have too many obligations and such. Well, then maybe this isn't the game for you. You don't sign-up to join your friends in a bowling league when you know you have too many things in your life that occupy or demand your time, do you? This is not different. There's playing of things for the soloist or person who's on time constraints to do in this game. Raiding requires time coordination with at least 7 other people... you are a special snow-flake and deserve to get everything handed to you because you cannot do that.

Actually, it's a lame excuse to demand that the game cater to way you play it. In this game, there are many things to do, and many things to obtain. If you want to obtain it all, you have to do everything in this game. It is not design by democracy. You want end game pvp, then do pvp. You want end game pve, then do the end game pve stuff (operations). Simple as that.

"Why?" is no more valid than saying "Why not?" Why? Because the designers chose it that way. Because in any system with options, they decide what options are complete. They gave a reason for not being allowed to change gender. They did the same for AC. They want your AC to feel unique enough and not be able to just click a button and become something else entirely. They had the cutoff point at respec'ing your talent trees. That's where they wanted it. Some of us agree for our own opinions. You do not. That's fine, but asking, "Why?" doesn't make you right.

Grimsblood and I are saying the same thing. You're picking two fights that are tightest enrage to base your argument that Marauders have superior dps w/out looking at other factors in the fight. Sure, they are the best on those two fights, which, coincidentally, have the tightest two enrage mechanics. The only problem is, you're making a jump there as well. You cannot say that the only fights that have merits are these two because they are dps checks. As I stated, if there was a boss that had significant melee-ranged downtime, but also was a dps check, wouldn't that have made your criteria simply on the "dps check" requirement and then you'd see melee classes taking a dive, thus negating the validity of your argument? Essentially, you're sort of cherry-picking the 2 patchwerk fights and using that as evidence while Grimsblood has given links to essentially all the bosses that contradicts what you're saying. Forget "tighest dps checks" and really say "patchwerk style" for the 2 bosses and you'd be way more accurate. You're saying there's correlation between Marauder Top DPS and Tightest DPS Check, but that's really coincidence. It's correlation for Marauder Top DPS and Pathwerk Sytle Fight. And we're not arguing that Marauders aren't the top dps sometimes, but Korse and Rye were saying that, on the whole, Marauders do the best dps, which Grimsblood shot down with evidence. Then, you cherry-picked two specific fights and trying to use a coincidental trait (tighest dps check) as giving validity to your argument. And Grim and I are saying that isn't a valid argument.

Because you're failing to account for what I said: These are patchwerk fights. On patchwerk fights Marauders are king of the hill. If you have a class that did the worst dps on 9/10 bosses, but on that 1 boss they did 3 times the dps of anyone else... and it just happens that boss is the tighest enrage timer, does this mean that, that one class is king of the dps? Of course not. But that's what you're saying. You're only criteria is looking at the two bosses with the highest dps checks, but if they made a boss that had a super-tight enrage timer, but would have moments where he's only damageable from 15 yards away... would you still bring Marauders because they're king of the tight dps checks? Nope. So you're argument that they do the most dps is flawed because you have to look at when they excel.

Actually, no. As I just stated, Marauders do such great dps because these are essentially Patchwerk fights with little downtime. And the other poster's point has merit: If Marauders do top dps in the hardest fights simply because they have the best dps, then they should have the best dps in other fights as well. The fact that they clearly do not means that they are top dps situationally.

I will repeat my statement: If other melee classes want more utility, then it's only fair you give Marauders the ability to have a spec for healing or tanking.

Not sure I entirely agree. I believe in Styrak and GF, the reason Marauders shine is that there's no way to pad meters with AoE, no real running around so very little disconnect, and little downtime, certainly not enough to make you lose out on keeping the stacks rolling. These two are essentially Patchwork fights and we've already seen how good Marauders parse on operation dummies (and how at 30% and lower their dps goes up higher with VT). So, I'm going off the premise that DPS is fairly equal between all classes. In that case, the point is whether it's fair that Marauders (and Snipers) should have better utility. It depends how key those utility bonuses are. And this is comparing melee dps amongst melee dps since, if all things are equal, you might as well bring all ranged to every fight because there's never a detriment for a ranges standing 30 meters away... or 3 meters. I'm okay with people saying it needs to be reworked, but not what the OP suggests. That swings the issue to far the other way and would turn into a "why would we need to bring more than one marauder" where he's asking, "why would we bring anyone besides a marauder". So I'd suggest that BT still have it's 5 min cooldown, but only affects the Marauder. That way, stacking Marauder doesn't help and doesn't give them more utility beyond predation and a dot heal if they're Anni spec'd. You don't like our game, well, then we're taking our ball with us.

Once again, you're going back to your own experiences and trying to say that has more relevance than statisical data. Remember when people complained that PvP map cycling is broken because they were getting some maps multiple times. Here's BW's response: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6200556#post6200556 The key part is: Which basically says that your individual experience melts when compared to overall statistical data. You may flip a coin and may have gotten heads 10 times in a row, but you are getting mad when other people show you, clearly, that it's still a 50-50 chance. You're the one who keeps saying, "No, heads comes up more! I know it because that's what happens to me!" Do you not see the lack of logic and rationality in your posts when you do this? Our guild will typically use sorc pulls, sniper bubbles, saber reflect, and such. We don't force ourselves to bring a certain class, but we maximize the classes we have by doing things that they and they alone can do. Btw, it's already been shown that, in most boss fights, Marauders are not top melee dps. If that's the case, why do you want to nerf the utility of a class that already isn't #1 melee dps?

And you ignore that nerfing a specific class ability is literally nerfing the class. If a second Marauder can never use his BT then by your philosophy where you'll take the class and not the player, why take a second Marauder, ever? And you can't say it's because they are highest dps, because that has been proven wrong. Unless you bring the 2nd Marauder for Styrak and GF, but then you'll make him sit every other boss right, right?

Okay... so where's your data that makes you believe otherwise? So far, it's just a feeling you have. I'd go with statistical data over your limited amount of experience (limited to your raids and your raids only). It's like playing Halo with my friends and beating all of them. In my little world, I'm the best Halo player. Then I go online and play against a much larger pool of people... and I win 60% of the time. And then there are guys who win 90% of the time. I would say they're better players than me. But you're saying that those statistics are shady and I should focus on the fact that I was 100% amongst my friends... Do you know how statistics work?

You're trying to dismiss actual statistical values with general terms like "exceptional individuals" and trying to create the conspiracy of editing logs. If this is the case, why isn't there one exceptional marauder that's editing their logs if you're trying to give the notion that other classes have those type of players? What fights are tight DPS checks in your option? Then go look at torparse logs and find where the Marauders are #1 consistently. You want to nerf how a mechanic works for a class. That's nerfing a class. Secondly, if one Marauder's BT triggers a global debuff for 5 minutes so another Marauder can't use there's, and by the time they can, the original one can use it, then you're still nerfing because, now due to diminishing returns of BT, you're capping the # of Marauders you'd want to bring. Can you really not see that? That's like a dot going on a boss that no one else from that class can put up while the original dot is up? And the CD on the ability for the dot is the same as the duration of the dot. You want to nerf a class, are given statistical data that contradicts your statements, and basically refuse to look at the big picture just because you want what you want. Who's the one who's really trolling?

1 - Reported 2 - Kind of hard to raid on the first day of release when we're running at 9-10 people in our guild and both of our tanks didn't do what 4 of the dps did and decided to speed level. In fact, our 2 tanks didn't want to level hardcore in beta, one of them wanted to enjoy the story on live. And that's okay. So the first week the game came out we didn't have our tanks... that kind of makes raiding week 1, a problem. And, as someone else pointed out, your version of progression is garbage too then because there were already youtube vids, online strats, and plenty of testing you could do on the servers. If you want real "progression" raiding, go to WoW where guilds don't clear Heroic Raids in the first day it's released. So stop defining what your version of "progression" because I don't think it applies to almost anyone in this game then since Rye defined it as no online videos. We split classes simply for loot drops. If a non-token piece dropped that was str-dps and one group had both marauders and the other didn't, that'd be a waste of a drop. Like I said, if DPS is equal, and you want to give more utility to the other melee classes, then give marauders the ability to respec to a heal or tank role. It's only fair. Not an issue to you. Well, utility is not an issue to me. Don't you find it hypocritical that you want something changed simply because it bothers you, but casually dismiss something else that affects "balance and fairness" because it doesn't concern you?

Not Semantics. If you think you'd the same DPS over 1 min with 4 Marauders using BT's back to back versus using all 4 at the same time, you are sorely mistaken, unless you have no idea how burn phases and on-use relics work.