Be careful finelinebob... there's this guy who says he's from Nigeria who wants to give you an investment opportunity... that's a scam. ... Seriously, I'm sorry you were duped, but it wasn't through any sort of exploit in the game. It was strictly through interaction between people. Sadly, that's where you pay the price.

This is what I'm confused on... the game already has one. Why are people acting like one doesn't exist. Unless you're arguing for an in-game, involuntarily meter (meaning other people in your group can record your numbers). I don't see a need for it. PUGs are PUGs... and in guild runs you can make it mandatory to use the meters already available. So isn't the problem solved?

As many said, the problem is that 2.4 isn't slated for a while which makes the PvPer's wonder why they should keep resubbing for now. If you told me that there's no new raid content (even NiM modes) for the next 3-4 months I would just unsub in a couple weeks after I'm BiS as there's little reason to pay a sub for that. Honestly though, with the fact that a real, new operation isn't even mentioned for the next 3-4 months it makes me question whether I want to keep subbing to pay to play the same operations I've already done for the last few months since TFB originally came out.

As I said, I could be wrong, but it seems like you've gotten more stuff than your average person in your guild, right? Are you telling me that all 16 raiders are BiS? If not, then looks like there's still plenty for you guys to do for the next 4 weeks to get your guild BiS.

Why do people say this? They said that when TSW came out... and GW2... people leave because they dislike this game... but it's silly to think that people playing this game are just waiting for the next great thing to come along. I'd say most new MMO's that come out will perhaps be played by that "restless minority". A small portion of those stay at the new game... but some will also come back while the majority of those people will continue to be restless because no game is going to cater to what they're looking for.

Don't really disagree... I'm not a pvp'er, but I can see there's basically nothing for PvP'ers for months. And even for us raiders there's just NiM modes for existing raids for the next few months. It's EC all over again where we spent 5+ months with the same operation... that wasn't fun.

There's been 6 raiding weeks since April 9th... Assuming your guild cleared the first week the game came out with EA. That's 6 of each token + 6 add'l ones from TC. That means you might have all the better Ult Token enhancements, but they're not BiS unless you kept getting the right drops... ... or other pepole in your guild are have only gotten a small amount of token drops so you could get the rest. I could be wrong... and it's really not important. Kudos to you if you are actually BiS with token gear... I'm missing the pants token right now and a couple BiS enhancements still.

Really? You farmed all HM's enough to get the token enchancements as well because the Ultimate Comm versions are not BiS enchancements. It's possible, but only if you were running with an alt group and shuttling all your gear via legacy to your main.

As I said earlier in the thread:

If you aren't going to try and BiS yourself with 72's, you're going to be waiting for BiS to be on the market at high prices come 2.2 because it's going to be hard to beat NiM mechanics w/out top end gear and some practice.

After listening to the PvP'ers... yeah... I feel them. Something new needs to be added for them. Another WZ and something probably a way to queue for a single WZ instead of queing for all. And I'd like to make suggestion. It's something Rift did. Rift had weekend bonuses where there would be a certain WZ that would actually change a bit during that weekend. It was the same map, but the objectives were slightly different. For example, there's a CTF version, but on special weekends it was instead a race to capture the items from the middle... first to put 3 at their base node would win. See? Slightly different mechanics. Same maps so shouldn't be too hard to change. And those special maps would get bonus valor and comms earned. And the fact that you could queue specifically for single maps means everyone was playing those maps on the weekends. It actually was a lot of fun. Throw in cross-server que'ing and limiting que's to 2 people, if 3+ people que'd they were put into Premade que's where they faced groups that also had 3+ people que. Those 4 things: 1 - Special WZ weekends with tweaked mechanics 2 - Bonus rewards for those special WZ's 3 - Cross-server que'ing 4 - Preventing premade groups from que'ing as easily together ... would probably boost this game up a bit. At least, in my viewpoint... what do the pvper's say about that? Would they like this if this was implemented in 2.2?

It was stated that crafters would always be able to RE and craft one tier behind Top-end gear. Since 2.2 will be releasing a higher tier (probably iLvl 75), crafters will be able to RE from 72's now since they can currently RE 69's. Also, I hope the optimizations with graphics are going to help the ability lag that's happening in this game. Lastly, I see that 2.3 will bring new FP's, but no new operations... which means that there's no new operations coming out until maybe Sept or October? That's extremely disappointing... And, no, I don't count NiM modes as new operations because it's the same skinned models with a couple new mechanics. Sure, it's more challenging, but it's hard to appreciate the challenge when you're staring at the TFB for the umpteenth time. It's sort of like doing current content on your alts...

I would just like Jaessa to be a sorc healer and her abilities could just mimic your standard healer except have sorc cosmetics to it. That way I could actually use Jaessa when questing...

I feel this post is a bit of a flame bait. You're basically complaining that your favorite indie band got big, went mainstream, and sold out. That's how MMO's have become. Back when I watched my friends play EQ I had no interest in the length of time it took them to grind levels or the terrible graphics or the lack of 3rd person view used that in that game. The time you needed to put into EQ to be part of a successful raiding guild was crazy (IMO). So that game catered to those people. WoW was sort of the same way. At first it catered to raiders... but then the market flooded with people who didn't have the dedication or time allotment... and they wanted a piece of the pie as well. So LFR's came around, content made easier (per se). As a WoW developer said, in Vanilla a small portion raided, but now the majority of players raid. And you can't build raids around that small group anymore... not like MC and such where you needed attunements and there wasn't an easier mode. Now these games have a bigger genre with a larger majority being those less dedicated people. Even some of those who were dedicated don't have the same time allotments anymore. I would love a game that catered strictly to raiders and had the policy, "If you're a casual, there's plenty of other games out there for you." But companies don't do that. Just like an indie band... you can stay indie, cater to your small, loyal fan-base, and never make it big... all the while your loyal fan-base will die out as they eventually out-grow your style... or you can go mainstream.

For me I think what's missing are two things I cannot get back: 1) First-time nostalgia 2) Free time I remember how excited I was playing WoW beta and leveling my first character in Vanilla. I remember the excitement of being in my first raid and killing my first raid boss. This isn't ToR's fault... I just don't have the time or drive to raid 4-5 nights a week for 4-5 hours. And even if I did and there was that much raiding content to do... I wouldn't have as much fun. But that's because the "newness" is gone. There's always a little excitement when doing a new operation or killing a new boss, but that's all anymore. Now it's mainly about the people I run the ops.

Sure, but they're bringing up the exception that proves the rule. There are definitely times where you can identify bad dps by watching them. But not all the time. However, meters can always show bad dps... every time. We're basing pugs on the assumption that people aren't generally as group-coordinated and that there's always a few over-geared to help the under-geared... and that it's usually SM content, right? That's fine... and I'll leave it at that: Meters are never needed for PUGs.

Actually, the root problem is the person... not the combat parser. I think it's fine that it's voluntary. In fact, it's probably better. However, I actually became quite bothered when you thought the root problem was the tool. It's like banning a product from the market because a few users use the product annoyingly. This is sort of redundant as you're basically saying what I said, that there's no need for meters outside of guild runs.

I guess you were just so focused on this side topic that you've completely missed the fact that I've repeatedly said they're not needed for pugs as well. That's not the issue with this side topic. The issue is that someone is saying that you can identify bad dps just by watching... which is why you don't need meters. And that's bull. You cannot always see bad dps just by watching people. That was a side argument that continues because there are people who are tunnel-visioning that topic. I'll state my side directly again, since people cannot seem to follow along: 1 - This game already has programs for dps meters 2 - They are voluntary 3 - BW will probably never change how meters currently exist in that they won't make people who don't want to be reviewed by others not have to 4 - They're not needed in pugs 5 - You cannot always tell bad dps by watching them 6 - Meters are great tools, but used really for guild runs. There are instances where meters, along with any tool, are used in annoying ways, but don't blame meters. Blame the bad users for it. 7 - I have yet to see a good player refuse to join meters unless it's trivial content for guild runs.

The middle of what argument? Aqqh wasn't quoting anyone, but gave his own thoughts. Yes, he mentioned PUGs, but I never did. In fact, I even said in my very reply to his post that got this whole side ball rolling was: So I was talking about guild runs. Not pugs. Ugh... can't even believe we're dissecting this part of the discussion. My point was more about the fact that I'm saying meters are a far better and easier tool than watching someone else. You don't need meters, but it's far better than making an arbitrary decision when you guess if someone is maximizing their performance. I do not think that watching someone else is a good supplement to meters.

Well, another reason I assumed you were talking to me was because you were quoting me and then making a reply. If you don't want someone to assume you're speaking to them, then don't quote them or put disclaimers to let it be specifically known you're not talking directly to them to contradict a point. Once again, I'm not talking about pugs. I'm talking about guild raids which is the only thing that matters to me as pugs are almost always going to have bads who are carried. I never said that you "have to have a parser". All I said was that it's a great tool and far better than "watching" someone else. All I'm saying is that you're trying to trivialize dps meters by saying you can just watch the person. That is only the case when someone is blatantly worse... and, at best, is still a much weaker system than using a damage meter. It's like driving a car. I'm arguing for a speedometer and you're arguing the merits of having an experienced driver next to you telling you how fast you're going. It's silly because it's a harder system to have someone watch someone else and make guesstimates versus using an analytical tool. I still don't get why you're arguing with me about that. I'm not arguing that watching someone is a bad tool... I'm arguing that a dps meter is a superior tool to help with ease of gathering analytical data to make adjustments. I'm just going to say this again since you brought it up twice in the same post: I'm not talking about pugs. And in a pug I have neither the time nor the patience to waste teaching someone how to play their class. I'm not Marauder #1 in this game or on this server. I'm above-average, but that's it. I can help someone if they ask, but I will not sit there and tell them they're "doing it wrong". Those are just a few reasons why I typically do not pug anything.

To use an analogy: I seriously doubt you can build a car if you don't even know oil is used in the engine. And I don't care if you were or weren't bashing other players. Your original post was inflammatory and yet you're expecting others to be civil in their response. Anyhow, I'm done arguing about the way you post. Dyes on mounts would be fine so long as it didn't take resources away from more important things such as fixing the ability delay in this game.

Please point to me where, in this thread, I'm calling out the need for damage meters to me an involuntary decision by the participants or that I use it for PUGs... because I said neither. But you're idea of "watching" someone else is really silly. As I pointed, there are many examples where you won't be able to tell simply by watching someone that they're doing a worse job than you.

1 - Touche on the improper use of "you're" when it should have been "your". 2 - Your opinion was inflammatory as you're insulting BW. You want to start a civil, open discussion, then start with a civil, non-insulting post. You can't jump in by insulting a company, and then demand respect for which you give none yourself. And I'm merely touching on this subject. You seem to not understand how abilities, items, and color dyes work. I'm not a software developer, but it seemed fairly obvious to me, as with many other people too so, yes, it seems you have a serious lack of understanding in terms of software development and data management.

No, you were bashing the company with this statement: Edit: It seems the rest of it has been explained enough to you to understand that what you were asking for is a lot more work than you seemed to think it was at the beginning of this thread. Although I have to respond to this: It started with one person (you) seeming to know more about software development than BW does in terms of their own game. Don't start what you can't take.

"More often than not"? I highly doubt that. Those meters haven't affected our group once in our operations since the first day I joined them almost a year ago. Also, I've been using meters since Vanilla WoW days. Now with all those times I have used meters I can only think of a very few # of times someone would use the tool annoyingly as you described. I'm just throwing out a rough percentage, but, at the worst, I'd say it was 5-10% of the time someone was using the tool did they abuse it. When you say "more often than not" would mean that over 50% of the time a meter was used it lead to bad results.