Flaw in your statement. Who is "us"? If you mean the entire player-base then I'm pretty sure you're wrong. If not, then I would say that most of the player-base can't read because Single Player RPG's =/= MMO. It's like buying Mario Kart and getting mad because it's nothing like Mario World. Same franchise, different type of game.

The "Journey" for EQ was a very, very pace to level and the only fast way to level was to solo-grind mobs. If you have levels people will use that as the measuring stick and will find the shortest route possible to reach max level. If there is no "max level" you need to build content fast enough to keep up with how high of a level people can get. People will always look for the shortest route to getting the most power possible. Once again, you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. If you think they can churn out leveling content fast enough to keep up with people's ability to chew through it, you're once again kidding yourself. What will then happen is people will wait around until the next content patch by unsubbing from the game. You seem to be under the premise that single player games have sequels released before a large part of the community is done with the original game. That's not how it happens. If you want to make the climb to max level long, slow, and tedious like EQ was, by all means go ahead, but you're creating a failproduct I guarantee.

Okay... sometimes I wonder what your points are... 1) Raiding is PvE combat so you're not really contradicting my point with this statement and not giving me an alternative as to what people did in EQ after they hit max level. 2) This game also has several zones for high levels and has dungeons for high levels. So, once again, I'm still waiting for the difference you're talking about... 3) You're not answering the issue with this one. You're trying to give me scenarios of how MMOs in "the old days" didn't have a focus on raiding. I asked for a game where the player-base had alternatives to raiding upon hitting max level. Your answer: "They didn't hit max level". That is a completely moot point because you're not answering the question, that's ignoring it. And the 3 solutions you did give that EQ gave that wasn't about raiding are the exact same things you can do in WoW, Rift, and ToR so you're not providing me with any examples of this mystery content that disappeared. 4) You're still grinding. Now you're grinding mission/quests. They might be more dynamic because they're randomly generated, by you do those enough and they will still feel like a grind and repetitive in nature. 5) So you're saying you just want mobs that are harder to kill that exist in zones. Okay, they're tougher. Well, how do you make it easier to kill them? You group up with somebody. How do you make it even easier? You group up with several people. So now the designers know this so they make monsters that specifically require you to have a group of people. But there's others who can attack you or grief you as you try to kill this monster. So designers create these portals so only your group can fight the monster w/out fear of player griefing. Congratulations, you have now seen the evolution of raiding. If you made monsters in this game that were tough to kill, in the outdoor, and solely for the fun of it, you'd see a lot of these unique monsters just idly standing there because no one would do them anymore. Designers realized that if there's no carrot at the end of the stick people will not pursue it. You can't blame ToR or any other MMO for that. That's human nature. MMO's are driven by gear. And you're joking if you think that's not true. I saw my friends play in EQ. Everyone on their PvP server wore all the no-drop gear so that it couldn't get stolen by another player. Even as far back as UO people would design traps to kill people so they could take all of their stuff. You're kidding yourself to argue otherwise.

What "content" are you talking about? What did people do at max level in the early days of EQ? I don't really remember seeing my friend do a quest system. There was just grinding mobs for an item drop. How is that any different? Raiding just requires group effort to accomplish and it's grinding mobs. I see no difference and so I'm still trying to understand what this elusive 1/3 of content that has now been removed that you're referring to. They might have changed it, but I'm still trying to understand what people did at max level if they didn't raid. I agree that raiding and better gear is a way to provide character progression after max level. If you can give me a system and explain how it worked where it wasn't simply getting better gear by killing tougher monsters at max level then please do so because your answers are really vague as to what happens when you hit max level. Fyi: CoH is not "old days". That game came out in 2004... around the same time WoW came out so, by that point, raiding was an established system in EQ so that's not a really good example.

How far back are you referring to in terms of "old days"? When I saw my friends playing EQ that's all there was to do was to raid at that point. Yes, stats on better gear were the replacement for level progression. Can you tell me what game yu are referring to that didn't remove the "1/3 of the content that the game should have (high level PvE)" and explain how it worked? I'm really curious as to what this is that isn't mob griding on a group or solo level?

My personal view is that a lot of people who played this game thought it would be the total package that no mmo has. There are many who are upset that the game lacks solo end-game content. A lot of these are loyal KOTOR followers that don't understand that single player rpg's and mmo's are very different. MMO's are trying to do that with Dailies and such, but many players do not like grinding daily quests... but it's hard to keep churning out story content... and it's impossible to develop new story content faster or on pace with the people who consume it. Some are upset that they cannot get access to all endgame by playing it they way they play it... or that it's too hard. On the opposite end there are people who think the content is too easy. On my original server on Mandalore the Indom there was a guild that cleared EC HM the first night and then they all /gquit back to wow because content was too easy. Tbh, it's very hard to satisfy both ends of the spectrum. Back in the old days people were of the mindset, if you want to see all content, you're going to have to raid. But that was the demographic back then. When WoW came along a lot more people joined the game and many of those didn't raid for one reason or another, but still wanted to access all of it. No MMO has it down perfectly. Most people want to see all content and/or raid, but do not like to deal with the challenge of organizing a guild and/or dealing with pugs and/or devoting lots of time to raids. The demographic has shifted and MMO's are trying to find that successful balance. How do you make a raid hard enough that the hardcore stay satisfied, yet easy enough to not alienate the large demographic of "casuals"? Some are upset because they do not like the idea of the CM. They do not like the idea that paying extra money in a game to get exclusive things. Although it's not pay to win, it is a system that caters to those willing to fork out more cash. I do understand that somewhat. You don't just buy a car because of how well it runs, you also buy a car based on it's looks. We are superficial creatures by nature so the "prettier objects" create envy when they require more money to obtain. Some, like me, were upset about how bad the Hero engine is. Constant ability delays, constant FP drops, not being able to have a good framerate with many people on the screen. That's really bad for an MMO. And that is, ultimately why I quit. I cannot enjoy a game where the fundamental mechanics of gameplay are terrible. If I fire off an ability and it doesn't work all the time, then that's a broken system. No matter how pretty a car was, would you buy it if there was a fairly high chance that on a drive that lasts 10+ minutes that you're virtually guaranteed to have the gas pedal not work and you have to restep on the pedal? Of course not. I kept waiting around, hoping it would be fixed, but it's only gotten worse. And when you're dealing with tight DPS checks, it's playing with a handicap that makes it harder for the people who aren't the supreme elite raiders, like me. I'm fairly decent. I'll never be ultra-elite. Still, never had a game this frustrating with it's engine.

Difficulty in mechanics is awesome. Difficulty by raising HP and Damage is not so awesome.

Not true. There were bugs posted in the Closed Beta that were never responded to, and then ended up getting fixed a few weeks after launch... one such bug was the sorc bug where a certain proc buff was giving the reduced force cost of heals, but not taking the charges of the buff away, so a sorc healer in the hybrid spec had infinite force to heal with. That was posted about in closed beta, never addressed, re-brought up in live, and finally addressed/fixed. Do not take Dev silence as "WAI".

Overall I agree that fights are harder and we haven't gotten to the DG on council either, but I'm just saying, that I'm not pro either. So, if Kevin Durant, LBJ, and Kobe are telling the NBA that they think the new rims are too small in diameter and it's making shots harder, I'm pretty sure I'm going to believe them w/out needing to take a few shots myself. If this is several weeks after guilds have been clearing and some random person from some random guild comes in and complains... yeah... I wouldn't listen too much at that point.

As a tank? That's fine. Go ahead and factor that dps back in for that boss. How about during P2? How about doom? How about force leech? How about Kel fixate? Those are also things that weren't factored into the original post. My problem I see is that top end guilds should be hitting problems with surviving new mechanics and having as little downtime as possible when dps'ing. It seems to me that these guilds are doing that and still hitting enrage. It sounds to me like the problem with this fight is that the new mechanics are easily compensated for, but the lame change of raising hp and dps numbers is the problem here. Goes back to my point that doing this sort of thing is the lazy way to gate content. New mechanics make fights fun, exciting, and such. Raising hp from 2.5 mil to 3 mil is bad.

Yes, you can do that too, and we did that during PTS to beat the 2nd lightning storm, but from what the people who've been doing this on live are saying is that there's a lot going on that moving them together and dps'ing 1st target isn't always optimal. And I don't know the exact numbers, but I do know that damaging Kel a lot buffs boss #1 doesn't it? So you want to minimize damage on that boss... including the splash damage of chain lightning and any orbital strikes... meaning that tank cannot be close so their dps is moot.

I've raided since Vanilla WoW and I've never, ever, ever liked Hard Enrage mechanics. They are there because healing is/was OP and the people designing had to find a way to make it so the fight couldn't last forever if your dps was derp but your healing was not derp. Soft enrage mechanics are always the best way to do these things. I can think of several boss fights that had soft enrages. I feel that BW did the "Diablo 3 Nightmare version". They tested it and after testing raised the bar higher w/out actually checking anything. Adding extra mechanics to a fight is a great way to make Nightmare more interesting... simply raising the coefficients on damage and hp is dumb.

I didn't look farther into this, but you're forgetting a few things in the napkin math you're doing: 1) The tanks are dps'ing bosses that go back to full hp when the previous boss dies, meaning that tanks dps cannot be factored for the first boss entirely nor for the dps on the last boss during Ciphas kill. 2) You're forgetting to remove dps from a target if Kelsara is fixated on them during P3 and for the tank who gets force leech one them. 3) You're forgetting the dps loss that a dps has when they get doomed. That's a lot of downtime on individuals that isn't being factored into the equation.

I can see this is going to be a fantastic response because someone, instead of wanting to start off on a intellectual discussion, instead likes to do a little tongue-in-cheek insult confusing ignorance with pretentiousness... I really don't get your problem. We both agree that, currently, dps meters are being handled just fine in this game. Voluntary is fine. I just think it's hilarious that you are against an analytical tool just because there are rare situations where people post numbers up in an annoying behavior. If this all goes back to pugs, then just kick them from the group or put them on ignore. But no, instead of ignoring that individual, let's just post our contempt at the tool. That's a great way to look at it...

1. Activating an ability in combat that causes the animation, but the attack doesn't go off, but still causes GCD. 2. Activating an ability in combat that causes the animation, but the attack doesn't go off, but still causes GCD. 3. Activating an ability in combat that causes the animation, but the attack doesn't go off, but still causes GCD. 4. Activating an ability in combat that causes the animation, but the attack doesn't go off, but still causes GCD. 5. Activating an ability in combat that causes the animation, but the attack doesn't go off, but still causes GCD.

I am not my account. I am not my characters...

They say the read almost every thread and this one has a dev response in it so I figure that's even more of a reason. My guess they're not responding is because they're waiting on answers from the actual development team to give them a real answer. Who knows why the developers can't answer this question, but it would be nice to know that this message has been received and given over to the programmers to investigate and get a detailed response...

Okay... seriously, the patch came out and still we don't have any clarification on this. All I see in the patch notes is this: However, as a Anni Marauder spec I can both DPS and Heal at the same time. Currently I'm only using one PvP Relic and one PvE Relic that both provide power surge. Before this patch I was seeing 2 power surges on my character at the same time. Nothing... I repeat... NOTHING in this patch note says that there's any change for me since I did not stack 2 PvP relics. I'm actually a bit frustrated that you guys cannot simply come out and say the exact mechanics of what should happen here since your patch note is sorely missing detailed information. 1) Does this mean a PvE and a PvP Relic that both provide Power Surge can stack? 2) Does this mean that the PvP Relics still provide a healing proc and damage proc Power Surge that's independent so a user can get both to proc and get double Power Surge? 3) Does the Power Surge proc continue to interfere with the 4.5 sec ICD of the Relics that proc damage (Like Serendipitous Assault)? Can we get some detailed answers to these questions please?

No, it's a fix as stacking 2 different 2-set piece bonuses that let you double dip is OP. Honestly, they should have seen this before releasing the new gear. It actually would have been easy to have switched the 2-pc and 4-pc from the new sets where you could double-dip. That way, you couldn't double-dip. But this fix was needed as people wouldn't give this up for any forseeable future. Who cares about +X to your stats when you're getting +Y% bonus to your main abilities. It's like the Barman Shanker back from WoW. Before weapon speeds were normalized, people kept using that weapon because it's slower weapon speed made it BiS over many, many upgrades from Raid Content. Sometimes it's necessary to make changes so that old items don't stay BiS for longer than they should.

Yeah, that's also a good point. If you get a power surge from Relic 1, after it fades 6 seconds later couldn't the second one proc at that point? That's not stacking. So, yes, can you give us some definitive clarification?

Since 2.1.1 is now slated to come out tomorrow and as far as I can tell this fix will be implemented then, can we now get some clarification on some things: 1 - So, right now, the PvP ones can trigger off of damage and heals giving two procs from one relic. PvE ones cannot. So I just want it laid out specifically that there's no way a person should get 2 power surges in a 20 second window, right? That as soon as you get your power surge proc, expect not to see it again for another 20 seconds, correct? 2 - From what I've read from people testing is that the proc'ing of a relic that gives power surge also affects that 4.5 sec ICD of the proc'ing relic that does damage. I hope this is not intended and that it's a bug. Can you clarify what the intended mechanic is? 3 - Can you confirm that these changes are still coming out tomorrow and that it's been tested thoroughly. If not, I can see myself hitting the dummy for an hour and looking at my combat log just to have to find out myself, but I think it would be heck of a lot easier to hear it from the devs on how their items are supposed to work.

I've seen several of your posts saying that this person deserves to be banned because you were gullible. That's not an exploit. You got tricked. They don't ban ninja-looters in this game. Even if the group talked about it and agreed beforehand that they would only roll need on stuff that was for their class... and then someone rolls need on an item that isn't for them, wins, and leaves group. That's a ninja-looter, not an exploiter, and I'm pretty sure is not banned, are they? You still want BW to take action against the other guy even though you admit that you are at fault. That makes 0 sense.

Way to try and insult the people here because you fail to shoulder the responsibility. You were gullible, you didn't take any major preventative acts (such as having that person log on to their officer main and ask you in officer chat first), and yet you want to blame BW. Man up and accept the responsibility. You got played, son!

I also gave the other option which is the officer says it in officer chat or in guild chat on their approved character to another officer before switching over. Sorry that you hate VOIP, but you're sort of limiting your own options and placing blame on others for your lack of being secure. What if you did all you could, and you ginvite the wrong guy because you spelled the name wrong. Then you give him all the officer access... and then he takes everything from the bank? Do you blame the keyboard manufacturer for your mistype? Do you blame your spelling class? That's the problem when people stop taking responsibility. When does it end? In this case you clearly gave the person access to the guild bank... and since it's not RL possessions... instead it's pixels in a game that are typically easy to recover, it's not comparable to any sort of RL fraud.

Actually, it's easy. The person says it on VOIP or the person says it on their main in officer chat or guild chat and lets the other officer know BEFORE switching over.