1 - We're a progression guild. 2 - We don't stack Marauders as we don't need to. Sorry if you feel you need to. 3 - We used to have more than 1 8-man Ops group and when we did we would split the Marauders so that classes are split evenly. When we had to squeeze down to 1 do to attendance we didn't "stack Marauders". I'm really not sure what guilds do that. And, no, you don't get to dismiss the Hybrid Tax and hold onto your Utility Tax. Completely invalidates your argument because you're failing to see the whole scenario and just tunnel-vision what you want and try to mask it under "balance" and "fairness". If you're saying that you want BT to put a debuff up on the raid like Rez Timer, then the buff needs to affect the entire Raid.

I'll say it like many others before me in this thread, "No." Even with their the same basic class and have some similarities, they are different advanced classes. Even more so that Juggs and Marauders wear different armor sets (heavy and medium). When you were first picking your class it clearly said this was permanent. There needs to be some "point of no return" decisions in this game. This is one of them.

Are you just mad because you aren't performing as well as the Marauders in your raid? Because clearly you're trying to bring a Utility Tax w/out acknowledging the Hybrid Tax. And, even then, as someone else pointed out, Marauders aren't even topping the highest dps for a melee class (let along most any of the DPS roles), consistently. So not only do Marauders not do top dps of all the classes, they don't do top dps in the melee classes, consistently. And since they cannot respect to another role, they get more utility. We done here yet? Or are you just going to keep crying because you're getting beat by a marauder in your raid? Or is that your other dps'ers aren't very good?

They need to nerf these to be on sync with the PvE ones. A relic will proc from either healing or damage and then shut down any sort of Power gained on proc for the next 20 seconds. That's it. This way people will not stack 2 of any type of relic that gives power on proc. Seems pretty simple. It's been discussed for a week before 2.1 came out, but no comment from the devs. Once again, PvP relics become BiS for PvE'rs. I'm fairly certain this will be nerfed, much like the water for the Magenta Crystal quest, but it'd be nice if they mentioned that it will be fixed and when.

Bad comparison is bad. One affects gameplay. Another is simply vanity pixels. I'll let you figure out which one is which. Lastly, foam less please. Thanks.

Wrong. What are you saying: That PT's should get as much utility as Marauders or that PT's should do more DPS than a Marauder? That's called the Utility Tax. Which is a bad premise because it's easily countered by using the Hybrid Tax that a PT is. No point in taking a Marauder if the PT has just as much utility (or does more DPS) and I and I have the PT respec to tank in case of raid composition problems. You can't have a Marauder respec to another role. Your argument is just as bad as when people are that Marauders and Snipers are the only "True" DPS classes in the game, hence that's why they should do more DPS. I have never argued in favor of that because I do not believe in the Hybrid Tax. But I'm definitely not going to be okay with a Utility Tax either. And as most guilds go, if two people do the same DPS, you take the player, not the class.

The OP is making a hyperbole. Basically, if you 4 marauders as your dps, they would all share their BT with each other, giving them 20% dps increase that couldn't happen if you used 4 snipers, or 4 PT's, etc. It's really a trivial argument in trying to make their own dps more viable, but most guilds in ToR go by the player. I have yet to see any need to stack dps classes in this game like you do in WoW... except for range having an advantage over melee.

As soon as they take away your ability to respec to tank role, then I'll be okay giving up utility. Simple as that. And utility is not a factor. There's a common statement: "Take the player, not the class". Our guild would not make someone reroll to Marauder if we had none in our group, nor would we take one who was subpar over a non-marauder who did good dps. So your utility argument is sort of moot.

No... utility is utility. That's the bottom line. I cannot stress it enough that you do not balance dps around utility. Point blank. Even if a class brings a ton of utlity you would simply take the higher dps numbers over someone with more utility. If you want to complain about utitlity then I'll call in the Hybrid Tax and say that Hybrid classes like sins, juggs, opps, and pts have to have reduced dps because their Hybrid classes. The Hybrid Tax and the Utility Tax are equally valid. They're either both not valid or they both are. I have yet to be in a raid in ToR where they would sit someone based on utility over dps numbers. And you're also wrong. There have been uses for a dps to be able to CC, to taunt, to respec to a different role. Granted, it's not as many as Bloodthirst. But Bloodthirst isn't necessary to a raid in this game. It's 15% more damage for 15 seconds.

And you completely missed what I said. All melee dps should be roughly around each other... meaning PT's, Ops, Juggs, and Sin's should all do within 5% of the dps of each other. Marauder dps should not be lowered because they bring more utility. As I said, Utlity and DPS are two independent things.

No, utility and dps should be two completely independent things. You balance dps classes around their dps based on boss mechanics. That's it. You balance utility around utility. I would personally give up Beserk, Predation, and BT if it meant I can have perma-stealth, or wear heavy armor all the time... AND could respec to a tank role... all while doing the same DPS numbers I'm doing now.

You already started a thread on this yesterday. What, too many people told you to suck it up in the first thread so you had to start over? http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=638245

Because bosses are hard? And from our healers P.O.V - the trash is harder in S&V then the bosses. We've downed HM S&V w/out marauders, so clearly Marauders are not needed. However, I do agree that Marauders bring the most utility for a melee dps class, but the other 3 melee classes bring the utility of being able to respec to another role... something a Marauder cannot do. I'm cool with all the dps classes doing comparable dps (that's the way it should be). But it isn't fair to demand more dps utility for any of the other melee dps classes when Marauders cannot respec into another roll (if it's needed). Not true. The first one is the only one hurt by that. The 2nd through 4th can use BT at 30 stacks of fury and then pop Frenzy-Berserk. That's what we've done in our raids when we have 2 Marauders.

Okay, Marauder 1 I want you to CC Flame, Marauder 2 CC Gun, Marauder 3 CC Shield, Marauder 4 CC Lightning... Oh wait...

I sort of get it. I have my own complaints and I think most of the people upset would agree. Here it goes: 1 - Dyes should have been in-game obtainable for all of them. 2 - If there were dyes exclusive to the CM, they should have been pickable instead of "lottery roll" like the packs. 3 - The whole "primary/secondary" is not a good implementation. There should have been two slots in a piece of armor. One primary. One secondary. That way there's none of this "green/red dye". There's just green dye and red dye and you put them into the order you want to put them in. 4 - The minor barber shop options should have been in-game credits. 5 - If there's bugs with how dyes are working, that's really, really bad quality control. That should have been easily tested.

Meh. The amount of complaining is par for the course. It'll "dye" down after a bit. I think there's some bugs (surprise, surprise that there's bug with the new features...), but once those settle down people will calm down. So far no one in my guild had a problem. A few of us showed up in new colors (I also changed body size as I hate male bod 3 clipping in certain tight areas), cleared HM S&V, and called it a night. Everything seemed fine to us.

Fair enough. I'll take it back. "Punish" is the wrong word. But, still unfair. I could see them doing what you suggested and that would be fine as well, but I have a feeling it's a little bit harder to add in more coding or to go back and database tag all those with a new field. Much easier to globally change all toys. I really believe that the amount of work to make that change > a few people upset because they have a lack of perspective on the matter. Yeah, this whole patch irks me. I would really like fir basic barbershop features (tatoos, earrings, hair, etc.) to cost in-game credz. I would like for them to make dyes not a lottery. I would like for them to have made 2 slots for dyes: primary and secondary so you wouldn't need to create all of these extra dyes with primary and secondary colors that's exponentially more in scope. Yeah I would like if those dyes were crafter only for the rare ones (like white or black) and the more common ones to be purchased via a vendor. But I generally feel that people are getting way too upset about this patch. I really think that things will calm down in a month. Keep calm and carry on.

What "toys" did you readily use between your two toons? And, still, this goes back to perspective. You need to gain some because you're making this a bigger deal than it really is. Sorry if you believed they wouldn't change your old toys, but that doesn't mean "everyone" as you originally posted.

For what, the trainer? Are all of your characters in need of leveling? Did you not preorder? So, it's not so much that it's a toy. It's the incovenience of not being able to train, on the fly, wherever you are. I get that. That's your issue. And as I said, I can understand why a user would be a little irked. But Alec is making it sound way worse than it actually is. Look of an item is very different of functionality of an item. Once again, this goes back to fairness. It isn't fair to punish new purchasers of toys.

Still super-cheap. If you bought the Expansion everyone of your characters now has a statue trainer for free. It may not be the Malgus statue, but, what, were you dropping it on cooldown? Also, you can still buy these off the GTN for a low cost. He has 2 characters, that means he only has to buy them once additionally off the GTN.

1 - I have a few vanity items from the CM like a couple of pets, a mount, the RC spaceship toy to med with, things like that. So clearly you're assumption is wrong. The fact is, though, that I didn't spend a single CC coin on those accept for the Carbonite Chamber when I bought it the first day the CM came out and I used my CC's they had given me for time spent subscribed thus far. 2 - You aren't being charged RL money. Go buy a copy of it off the GTN. Stop tunnel-visioning your problem to make it seem more drastic than it actually is. 3 - The fact that you play 2 main characters means the cost for those toys should be minimal in terms of credits spent to duplicate. While I understanding that a certain level of irkness with the fact that they changed some items on you in game, the fact that you refuse to take a step back and see how little this really impacts you is just mind boggling. It's vanity stuff. You can probably resolve the issue by spending a small amount of credits. And you seem to overlook the fact that I clearly said it would unfair if new users had theirs bind on use, but you didn't. I see you updated your post after I had responded, but I think I still directly answered these in my above statements: 1 - Once again, you can buy them off the GTN, as you admitted so stop equating that you always have to spend RL cash. 2 - Once again, understand that anything in the game is subject to change. Luckily, it's only vanity items that got changed here. Changing gameplay-based items (such as stats on an item or how it functions in combat) would be a far bigger problem.

You spent real money i.e. you bought cartel coins? 1 - Items in game are always subject to change. Even if you pay using cash, it's still a virtual item that I'm pretty sure the EULA acknowledges that it's their property (which is why they have a right to ban you from selling anything for RL cash). So the fact that you spent RL cash on it doesn't give your complaint more weight. 2 - The fact that you can buy another toy for super-cheap prices means that you're still blowing this way out of proportion. 3 - It's still a vanity item.

I suspected this would happen. If they didn't change these, than any new toys would be unfairly worse. I continue to see your anger on these vanity issues and it really baffles me. Seriously, you're blowing this way too out of proportion when you can send your alt the same toy that costs probably 50k credits for something they will have permanently in the game. Are you seriously creating 12 alts on a server and leveling them up all the time and need to have all your toys flying around you? I somehow doubt that. If it's really true, then pony up the credz, but, as stated before, it wouldn't be fair for someone to get a toy post 2.1 that's stuck to one character while someone else can transfer their toy, freely.

They already can do colorings on every piece of armor (minus chestpiece) with the "match to chespiece" schema. So it's basically there. I don't see how complicated this can be when we already see it happening in game.

I could care less about whether the dyes are from CM or crafted. What bothers me is their system. Make 2 slots: primary and secondary. None of this - dyes with a primary and secondary color. That's just terrible. That way, if I like the black as primary and get bored of the red as secondary, I can just switch the secondary without having to look for a whole new duo-coloring dye that was black as primary and the color I want as secondary. Much like the enchanting system (aka the augmentation system), it's another terrible design.