This, all of this. Honestly, its too late for BW to turn things around.

Well...now everything makes a lot more sense. PvP in this game will never flourish, it's a holdover till GW2.

bored @ 50. the only meaningful pvp is warzones, world pvp is dead besides Ilum (if you're lucky). GW2 is going to steal the pvp base away from ToR if the March patch doesn't have more meaningful pvp content than one warzone.

Mirroring isn't ideal, but for the most part it's undeniably close. Its certaintly not far apart to grade balance with a D, nor does class balance feel so out of whack. What do you find in need of changes besides inquisitors/counselors and BH/Troopers Balance is really subject to interpretation at this point and I said as such. No telling how it'll feel a month from now.

It's not always horrible, but you're right. D is probably more accurate. Hopefully the recent announcement means it'll be fixed soon. Those classes have access to pretty powerful aoe. A lot of the sorcs on my server run maddness which is a dot spec, so it can definitely inflate warzone numbers. Either way, I don't think either class is absurd right now. You do know classes are mirrored right? Just seems like most people don't when they make that complaint.

I expect people to reply to the content of my thread instead of whining like a child. Whatever, you're free to be a douche.

Forgive me for not posting another nerf operatives thread. If this post annoys you so much, don't read it? Its not like there's anything else for pvp players to talk about. What riveting discussion did my thread deprive you of? None.

I lied, last bump :/

last shameless bump

Wont bother using the "server forums" until we actually have server forums. Nothing else to be said.

I know how awesome the low level pvp scene is now...I'm leveling two alts through warzones and class quests right now! Probably the most fun I've had with the game. I never specifically asked for arena teams, and rated warzones are confirmed and coming. What I do have a problem with is how inherently flawed the design of this game is with respect to competitive pvp. ToR should have never been released, combat being the way it is and I have a big problem with how neglected world pvp is while you level. You have this giant planet and the other faction is almost ALWAYS on the other side of it. Many of the things I brought up should have never been a problem to begin with at launch. Its not just a matter of lack of content, its a bit worse than that imo.

Weren't these the guys that made an alt to daily trade with themselves? Rofl.

I know, but there was a ton of flaming and ignorance in some of those threads. I just wanted to give a concise view of how I felt things were at the moment without any of that.

This is long. I've had time to mull over my intial impressions from release and 1.1 and felt the need to give a brief overview of what I feel the state of pvp in SWTOR is. I'm going to break down each facet then grade it. I'll do my best to tackle the design of each facet and what 1.1 addressed. Ilum & World PvP: Oh boy, lets get this out of the way. Ilum seems to suffer from design choices that don't encourage what the zone was intended for. This is attributable to a few things: Varying degrees of faction imbalance, lack of incentive to engage in legit wpvp, poor zone design. My biggest problems with Ilum: The utter lack of foresight while designing the zone. How could it have gone live as it did at release? Were there no beta testers in Ilum giving feedback on how easy it was to trade back and forth? My second big problem has to do with post 1.1 and that's just the poor daily design that was supposed to "fix" the exploiting/loopholes players found to actually avoid pvp'ing in a pvp zone. Also, Ilum is far too big. World PvP doesn't fare much better. You don't actually meet the opposing faction till Tatooine. While annoying, I can see why this was done and it'd be fine if the developers didn't go out of their way to separate Republic and Empire questing hubs/locations from then on. I remember being pleasantly surprised when I arrived on Voss and was able to freely engage republic for the first time without excessive effort on my part. I was an utter terror to the other faction for about two days before the quest hub (I don't remember the name) was patched to have GUARDS in it, discouraging world pvp that was already scarce. What I don't understand is why Bioware is so intent on discouraging world pvp on pvp servers. World pvp is in fact why players choose to play on these servers. Its as if the PvP team or Bioware decided that World pvp should only happen in predetermined areas (Outlaw's den, Ilum). The problem with that is Outlaw's Den is almost always empty on my server and people just exploit/loophole all over Ilum. Also, once players get what they need from these areas there is no point in staying. There is nothing substantial to fight for, nor anything on the line for either faction. The sense of urgency has been replaced with a chore. Though I'm not the kind of player that believes "if its red, its dead" I only play on pvp servers for the sheer thrill and sense of danger. It is the core distinguishing factor between pve and pvp servers. Unfortunately, since encountering the opposite faction is so rare and such a chore I've attacked every republic player I've seen on site...because I almost never see them. While I love this kind of pvp, other players on the opposite faction are less likely to seek it out since it rewards nothing and takes so much effort to find. ToR's fun factor takes a big, big hit here. Grade - F Combat: SWTOR combat isn't fluid. Or rather, not consistently fluid. Upon release players lamented on the forums about the various combat bugs severely hindering game enjoyment: -Abilities off cooldown not firing at all. -Animations taking precedence over the gcd/ability activation. -Abilities stopping mid-cast/animation I read in an interview pre 1.1 that 1.1 (and a patch about a week later) was supposed to significantly address these issues and unfortunately I find they've gotten even worse. First, nothing was fixed. Also, abilities on cooldown aren't grayed out anymore but look the same save a small bar that slides down the ability till its use-able again. This is a problem for two big reason: It was (as far as I know) not listed in the patch notes at all. Big no-no for such a big change. Second, it's near impossible to tell if an ability is ready if its almost ready due to how close the sliver/bar is to the bottom of the ability. I end up spamming attacks that look ready but aren't. I can adjust, but there's no reason to not inform players of this change (or to make it at all). This new system is a major step backwards. I'm not sure how fixable a lot of these problems are, it seems the engine and combat mechanics in ToR were not made with any kind of competitive pvp in mind. The random lack of responsiveness is maddening and if not fixed, will be the death of PvP in SWTOR. Grade - C- Warzones: Warzones are pretty fun. I love the maps right now but they're getting old quickly. I think it's a symptom of the fact that there is no meaningful pvp outside of three maps right now, and we won't be getting another till March. That's a serious lack of depth and variety that I hope is addressed quickly. For one, I know many players want warzones on a larger scale similar to what WoW had with Alterac valley. Geared level 50s beating on low level players was pretty horrible but I think it was the right move at the time. Queue times would have been brutal if 50s had their own bracket off the bat. Now that they do, many servers have a flourishing low level pvp scene. Its easily my favorite change in 1.1 (I have several alts ) Unfortunately 50 only warzone queues times are a crapshoot server to server. Some are brutal, others just a noticeable increase in wait time. I think it would have been better to implement cross server warzones with 50 only warzones to alleviate queue times. OR, instead of linking a ton of servers together for queuing, link 2-3, max. It would have been a great compromise between community and playtime. Still, this has fared much better than the other elements of ToR pvp, glaring issues aside. It has a ton of potential with ranked matches on the horizon. Hopefully that comes with the ability to queue eight players and choosing which WZ you queue for seems like another core feature that needs to be added in the near future. Bioware needs to address AFK'ing players asap. As far as I know, no action has been taken against anyone on my server. It's incredibly dispiriting to see a player in a corner doing nothing. Probably eating a sandwich or something. The Medal system is cool and I love the idea behind it but it needs tuning too. Healers are kinda SOL if they just heal and many players end up farming medals instead of trying to win. Perhaps giving the winning team a "win bonus" which multiplies the amount of medals you receive x2 would be a nice place to start. Maybe too much Grade - B- Class Balance: Too soon to grade this, but it doesn't feel too out of whack at cap. No class stands out as horribly overpowered or weak (without ridiculous consumable stacking). Dps Ops/Scoundrels need another look over but I don't think they need anything major. I wish there was more to say but its wise players give some time at cap before formulating kneejerk responses to balance. Grade- Tentative B+ Overall The outlook may seem pretty dire but I'd give Bioware some slack and time to fix what's broken. I'll at least give them till Guild Wars 2. There is much room for improvement. Besides the IP, the number one thing keeping me playing is how much potential this game has. Faction imbalance is kinda bad everywhere. If you guys buff outnumbered republic to compensate, please don't overdo it. Free server transfers from and to select servers would be a great place to start. My biggest concerns are (in order): Combat Fluidity and responsiveness, PvP content variety and depth and World PvP.

Also, GW2 won't have lolilum. GG.

Its a damn shame really. I'm surprised out how little has gone int TOR pvp given how much $$ and hype have been pumped into this game.

For pvp players it'll probably be a bit much to commit to the gear grind of TOR while playing GW2. I know I won't play both because I simply don't have the time. Thats a commodity every MMO competes for. Besides, why bother with pvp here if its being done so much better elsewhere? Guild Wars 2 isn't developing PvE in a secondary role, PvP is simply being done right, imo. You're right, the expectations for GW2 do seem a bit inflated beyond reason, and it probably won't deliver on everything. That said, I'll probably leave TOR for it anyway.

It's being designed with pvp in mind from the ground up. It's going to forgo treating pvp content as secondary and as a gear grind. Instead, it's attempting to legitimize itself as an e-sport while keeping an even focus on both play styles (pve vs pvp). On top of that, the diversity in content types within pvp? Unmatched by WoW and ToR. Depth? Heads and shoulders above the competition. And this is without even touching on any of the innovation. It will effectively steal every self respecting pvpr from TOR. Perhaps a few will stay to play with friends, but I feel the majority will leave en masse. This means the Bioware pvp dev team will have a considerably easier job than what they have now because the demand for quality pvp content with depth and variety will all but cease to exist. They'll lose out on the subscription base that primarily pvps simply because another game is going to do it so much better...and it's a damn shame. Because Star Wars is awesome. Not the game, the IP. The potential for pvp in this game is still immense and untapped but I don't think that matters at this point... It just wasn't built with serious pvp players in mind, and for that reason it will hemorrhage a large chunk of that player base unless the dev's make drastic changes. I'm not saying this game is going to fail or that it will without pvp players, but it will suffer for its own incompetence in pvp development. Spent the last hour and a half reading this: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/guild-wars-2-mass-info-t25557.html How is this not every pvpr's wet dream? Sounds like all you DAoC nuts get your lols back. I don't work for GW2 (I'm a film student/pvp nut), just calling it how i see it. This pvp forum will be a shell of its former self once GW2 drops. Maybe thats a good thing.

Tankasins are the best ball runners

PvP content is shallow, I agree. Right now, what is there outside of three warzones? Next to nothing. The obvious amount of polish that's gone into pve vs pvp has me unwilling to resub, i'll follow patch notes for a while and see if its worth the $$. If you're looking for a MMO to primarily pvp in at cap, if you're looking for something very different from WoW, if you're looking for depth and variety, this isn't it. Guild Wars 2 is going to revolutionize MMO pvp, it'll become an e-sport more than likely. Can't say that about TOR at all.

I don't get how the damage can be overkill, its not like you've any nasty burst outside of that tbh. Are you guessing that one stack nets around 5k? Thats still pretty nasty for minimal setup. Its not long at all, soz. 45 seconds is nothing. There are warzones besides huttball anyway. I don't understand, what does FL have to do with mobility? That snare isn't keeping competent players in your range, too many ways to get out of it or you out of theirs (besides running...)

I'm sorry but that build is horrible, so unfocused. you're better off going 23/0/18 because I don't see where the damage is coming from in that spec. Aoe reduction talents are instantly skipped, always. Maybe useful as PvE filler.

also considering this: http://torguild.net/calculator/sith-inquisitor/assassin/?p=2130203101203000000000000000000000000003220302122201102000

You aren't getting your mobility from madness, its all dysjunction/lightning recovery and force pull for uptime/utility. I hate that they didn't mention the slow %, makes me think its gonna be really small.

You lose the 15% chance to shield and 150%+ armor of dark charge. You can still shield though (as far as I know). Thinking about picking up the Shield/Absorb Relic so I can blow it with Dark Ward.