About 32 minutes. Thanks for the bump though.

There's a difference between just declaring doom and gloom and giving well thought out criticism. I tried to do the latter and it logically led to doom and gloom for the pvp base. I think ToR is a fantastic PvE/RP experience though. It'll easily live off those subs.

Edit: I'll be updating this thread with my 1.2 impressions. It's only fair. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you think "lol PvE > PvP", I'm not talking about you. If you're an admittedly casual player who only "dabbles" in pvp, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the people who, at cap, are playing a MMO for the pvp content. I can't help but feel, after reading these forums and talking to people from various pvp guilds on my server that it's pretty much already a wash for PvP in this game. The common sentiments from those conversations? -A Loss of faith in the PvP team for issues ranging from clunky combat, Ilum being lame/buggy, gear RNG, etc...really, it's all been covered extensively on these forums before. What I'm more concerned with is what will the repercussions of this arguably abysmal pvp development be going forward and is it "correctable"? I think the most obvious answer is: competition releases before Gabe and his team are able to address the lion's share of problems with pvp and it's utter lack of content. I think we're looking at TERA and GW2 siphoning most, if not all of the pvp base away from ToR and a chunk from WoW. There's no telling how large a drop in subs ToR will experience after these games release but I do believe it'll be very noticeable. People have been complaining about empty feeling servers and faction imbalance now...but just wait until ToR has new, legit competition. Some servers will be utter ghost towns. I think server mergers are imminent. PvP forum activity will die down too, probably drastically. The people who so passionately cared about Star Wars and MMO pvp will probably be gone...because SWTOR can't live off it's IP forever. It needs to deliver something interesting and original...which brings me to my next point. There is nothing innovative about ToR besides it's extensive V.O. and class stories. These all end at cap though, so ToR loses its greatest strength once players hit 50. After that it's pretty much a WoW clone done poorly. I don't mean to sell the leveling experience short by any means, it's the best of any MMO I've played...but it's obvious too much time and money went into quests many players are just space baring through (besides class quests) and not enough of polished, well developed endgame content (both pvp and pve-wise). Also, the game engine is kind of horrible. I doubt we'll ever see largscale, non lagfest pvp. It's gotten better but I doubt it'll improve by much. Very poor engine choice. I already know the contraian arguments to a lot of my points. "WoW released with far less at launch!" "PvP is a mini-game in ToR!" But those are easy to refute. ToR released late 2011, not 2004. The standards are higher and the MMO climate is very different. The second point is often presented by PvE players who could care less about PvP but let me assure you: That is not the official stance Gabe and his PvP are taking. If they were to publicly say that, they'd lose subs in droves. It may be so internally for whatever reason, but publicly pvp is as much as a priority as pve. I mean...not really. But they have to say that kind of stuff and consider that audience. Personally speaking, I think too much of the design in ToR compromises any hope that PvP will seriously improve or that is was ever a serious consideration in development. Why? -Three warzones at release compared to how many flashpoints, endgame ops and fully voiced class/sidequests. -Design intentionally detrimental to world pvp. Factions are split horribly when they finally meet on Tatooine and only meet with any kind of regularity on Voss (in my experience). On top of that, flash points are located in each factions respective fleet instead of inside the game world(s), making empty planets feel that much emptier...I won't even take Ilum to task. For the few dedicated PvPers I know still subscribed the March patch is make or break, do or die for their re-subscriptions. Unfortunately the only pvp content we know of is an unrevealed Warzone (I don't have any faith that it'll be awesome at this point). Maybe Ranked WZs Maybe another tier of gear. Maybe a better gearing system. Maybe a less crappy Ilum. Compare all those maybes to the PvE content being released and...well yea. I know the general argument: PvPers are a niche crowd and casual PvE players are where the $$ is at. I'm not denying that...but there is definitely a massive audience that enjoys pvp thanks in large part to World of Warcraft and the pvpers it's ranked arena system spawned. That base (and it's money) is ripe for the taking...but it feels like the PvP team has gone out of it's way to say: "No PvPers, we really don't give a **** about your preferred play-style or making quality content for you. You're secondary." Well...I get the feeling none of us will have a problem moving on to GW2, WoW's expac or TERA when they release...but I'll always be a little disappointed at what coulda been, because at the end of the day I'm a huge Star Wars fan...and I know a lot of my fellow pvpers are too. I just feel like the base has already been lost and sub hemorrhage is coming. Not to say this game won't be sucessful without the pvp base...it's just a shame it's looking like thats how things are going to play out with the pvp crowd. TL;DR: ToR finna flop for pvp nerds.

maybe he saved some?

Guild Wars 2 replaces the gear stat grind with...actual pvp content. At launch ToR had: 3 warzones Ilum (straight garbage tbh) GW2 will have: WvWvW, basically world pvp between three servers on a giant map...for three weeks. 5v5 Premade PvP server with full skils + gear Gear means little outside of cosmetics so you can compete right away, thats awesome. Enjoy grinding for stats that don't hide how bad you probably are and in stale content that's poorly designed and implemented.

You still 33/8 infiltration?

I was pointing out more than that, actually. I responded the way I did because: " You are acting like that water is giving me 100k+ of that healing. And even if what you are saying is true and I did sit in the corner playing with my water that would mean the spec was that much better that I can get those stats while spending half the match doing nothing productive." Is a pretty ridiculous statement. This isn't about proof, its about context. His KB's, Protection, damage and healing were all grossly inflated and it was posted without any...ah whats that word? Context.

Lets be honest, that's utter ********. Deception sins can pull out some pretty jaw dropping burst but the setup, extreme lack of survivability and lacking utility makes them inferior in comparison to sents/marauders who have easier to apply/higher pressure, awesome defensive cds and awesome group utility. Their trees are even better designed. And compare the utility of the lvl 50 abilities: Valorous Call (full centering/fury) vs. Overcharge Saber (marginal/random charge buff). It's no contest...not even close. Thats not balanced, its poor design. In fact its obvious sents/marauders are insane when geared right now. Arguably over powered. You clearly didn't read most of what I posted. I'm not saying I've been dropped by people running premades, I'm saying that if I were running them, I'd only use tankasins (maybe). DPS sins are too fragile and outclassed by other melee.

Year of the Dragon

My god, people like you are the worst kind of stupid. Please never have children.

orpjg'zepdmgbdl bffzdf

You mean to tell me that this: Is good? lolol -Induction nerfed -Speced into surging charge but...also speced into energize and dark ward. -No chain shock Its not a spec for good players because it's bad. If you can't see that you're probably bad at pvp. Sorry to break it to you. I'm sure you're a nice guy irl.

Because it's unfocused and doesn't synergize with itself at all. What is that spec trying to do? It looks like everything. No competent player will lose to this spec in a 1v1, sorry. And you'd be a wasted spot in high level team play.

Really sums up how a lot of people feel and why many will leave for good once competition arrives. PvPers especially have little to look forward to. We get one more warzone in march and (maybe) ranked warzones. It took me a awhile to realize that this game will never have the pvp experience I want. The people developing it don't know what they're doing and it doesn't really matter, PvP is secondary. And I guess that's not their fault, I just put ToR on a pedestal it didn't earn or deserve. Stiill, i can't help but think that instead of spending a bunch of money of voiceovers BW should have spent money on a better engine and endgame content (pvp and pve) with depth and variety. For pvp at least, it just isn't there. And if what we've seen from this pvp team is any indication, it'll never be there. My guild up and went back to WoW tonight Maybe I'm just sad or something. <3 u GW2, come save me bb

It's still a terrible spec if you're killing bad players. No offense meant to you though.

reading your description of madness makes the spec sound really...neutered. So you're applying your dots from range...then what? From 30yards (or medium-ish range) you have death field and creeping terror. Are you hardcasting Crushing Darkness too? It seems like you're only pulling off negligble damage from range that any competent team will just dispell/heal through. On top of that, you can't really toe to toe any class. I get the feeling sorcs still do it better. Then again I've only been madness for a few hours...

You never said anything which was my point. I averaged 14-15 medals per WZ with shockfrozen as 23/0/18 anyway. And here we have the context you left out No, I'm acting like the water inflated your healing done. I only said something because the OP commented on it. The last part of your quote is kind of hilarious and biased but w/e, i'll let you have your super spec man!

Very misleading of you to give no context of that screenshot. And you've probably been using shockfrozen water too. Thats not how your stats will look on average as 31 point darkness.

...that is a terrible spec man.

I'm asuming you run: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200RcrokrskrZ0MZf0cRo.1 ..or something like that. in dps gear w/ a shield or focus? how do you like HD without wither?

How are you guys dealing with getting your daily/weekly done on Ilum? No ranged attacks (that I know of) and being heavily outnumbered makes this really rough...

No amount of "doing it right" will make up for the fact that every class does it better. I've played madness for a few hours and it's not horrible. It can pump out damage a la deception (averaged 500k in warzones) but it still lacks utility/overall survivability. What's the point in bringing them in a premade over sents/marauders? None really.

I agree. If I maintain a ToR sub at all, I won't be playing this class. Sents are just everything I wish my Sin was. Viable Dps.

GW2 is every pvpers wet dream. It'll steal the pvp base from ToR really fast. The only people queuing warzones and zerging Ilum will be backpedaling, clicking, pvers.

Quality, not quantity. Plus if you boil this game down to just its PvP content (which is really what pvpers care about) it's incredibly shallow and repetitive. Especially if you're coming from WoW. What WoW had in 2004 is irrelevant, it's 2012. The standards are simply different and ToR is competing with WoW (and every other MMO) now, not in 2004. I think vanilla WoW is better pvp-wise. The world pvp was fantastic whereas in ToR I never got that sense of danger and unpredictability on a pvp server. The gear system was better too (never thought I'd say that) and classes were far more unique. The only place ToR trumps WoW is story and maybe class balance.