You didn't say who the other 2 DPS are. The marauder should be out-dpsing you consistently. Who else is in the raid?

The final spec you linked is the one I use, minus the chem-resistant inlays for razor edge. This is a great tutorial post, but it doesn't real deal with the central issue, pvp or otherwise. Other classes are objectively better for PvP in this game. The only area in which an operative CAN shine is in 1v1 against SOME (but not all classes, sin tank comes to mind) and this is obviously not useful in a group setting. Your last line, "you will find that Ops are by no means outclassed," isn't really supported by anything you say. Prove to me that marauders, powertechs, assasins etc. are not superior in any of the ways you described (other than idk, off-healing) and I will agree with you. Otherwise, why operatives may be "adequate" and other adjectives used elsewhere in this thread, they are relegated at best to the red-heaeded step-child role in this mmo. Unfortunately, because of all the backlash against the class early on in the game, it is unlikely they will brought back to competitive viability anytime soon.

Glad to know Operatives are even less useful than I thought... thanks...

Somehow Operatives are the new Paladins in this game. Nerf Ret to the ground! Nerf Holy to the ground! Deja vu all over again. People won't be content until we all run lethality

"Capable of completing content" is not incentive enough for most hardcore radiers in any mmo. You say operatives are "solidly mid-table;" middle between whom? Marauders, Powertechs, Sorcerers, Snipers are ahead of us, either by virtue of pure damage output or more constant damage output (gap-closer or ranged.) Anybody who wants to refute me, please show me hard data in top-tier raid gear. I have been running Mox numbers in my guild specifically during all of our Hard Mode Denova clears. Granted, the numbers are not laughably far from on another, but they are still lower. That, plus ZERO actual raid utility (off-heals should NEVER be necessary, everything else is not raid utility as most raid enemies are cc immune) makes us the least desirable class in the game DPS-wise, except possibly the juggernaut. So yes, the premise that we are competent to complete the easy content in-game is true. To say that we should be content with that however is nonsensical; the balance is worse now than it was pre-1.2. I shouldn't have to reroll fotm to be competitive.

This game is bug-ridden and dying kid... don't hold your breath.

I'd love to see the Snipers some of you claim to be so effective on your respective servers. None of those exist on my server. You won't convince me that Pyro Powertech is not in the Top 3 at the moment however, if not top 2.

To clarify I can pull ~1450+ on a DUMMY with trinket/ adrenal rotation. This is, of course, in nearly max-level gear. I guarantee you from Mox numbers that other classes can achieve higher numbers particularly in raid situations with more utility. My argument has yet to be refuted effecively. What does a DPS operative bring to a raid that another class does not do better?

PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE ON KINRATH SPIDER PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE. I wouldn't mind lol'ing at you in-game. GL with that spec; you're trying so had to increase your survivability, why? Even with all that you are still a glass cannon and squishy. You want to heal mid-fight or pre-fight for an extra TA? Every class has interrupts and stuns, what exactly are you trying to accomplish by forgoing talents that actually increase your burst? I suspect this is a case of small-server syndrome where everyone still around is a bad. I'm not here to whine. The FACT is our class is out-dpsed in PvE raid environments PERIOD. At the ceiling (everything else being equal) our DPS is LOWER in operation situations than similar DPS classes. Prove me wrong, the threads linked above certainly did not. For the record we were server first HM Denova and I'm rank 78 Warzone. If you are going to sit there and try and convince me our class is superior numbers-wise and/or Utility-wise to Marauders, Powertechs, Assassins etc. I'm going to ROFLMAO at you all day long.

lol the old WoW (or insert generic mmo) argument that the game is based around "teamwork" and not 1v1. You people are delusional that there is an semblance of balance in this game.

No waylay or flanking? No 3% crit Lethality? 2 pts in scouting? LOL To the other poster, my spec is correct and my gear is correct mods/enhancements etc. My DPS is not abysmal, I am not saying that operatives cannot DPS adequately for the level of content we have (we have cleared 8 man HM Denova even b4 the bug fix). My argument (not really an argument as it is a fact) is that operative DPS is lower than the overwhelming majority of other classes that also have equal or suprior utility to us. So what's the point?

Everyone keeps quoting this and I find it hysterial. If you think the classes in this game are remotely balanced to where skill > class limitation you are delusional (or play a maurader more likely.) Yes, if you are playing bads it doesn't matter what class you are, you will beat them. If however, you are a competitive player against an equally competitive player, you will lose to class mechanics. There is no reason, for example, why a Marauder should EVER lose to a Mercenary for example. This is not a balanced mmo, probably one of the worst balanced since early WoW. Ironically I think this game was more balanced pre-1.2 than post 1.2.

So I have come to grips recently that once everyone in my guild is equally geared, there is no way my DPS as an Operative will ever be able to match up to that of my fellow raiders. It is also blatantly clear that my utility, the little that there is (cleansing, off-healing, lucky vanish-rez?) pale in comparison to that of classes such as the Marauder, or the Sorcerer, or the Sniper etc. In PvP the situation is... bleak. I will leave it at that. We are thankfully better off than Mercenarys in this aspect however. I ask fellow operatives, what solution do you have? Bite the bullet and respec heals? Reroll completely? Play Diablo 3? What can I do to enjoy the game now that I am so... unnecessary

I approve of this list; less lazy version of my own. I would however still say that Sorcerers are better (more useful perhaps?) than Snipers when specced correctly. Best knockback and CC in the game imo, the only ranged class with a real ability to kite (not marauder but they are broken anyway) although it may also be a case of having no good snipers on my server specifically.

Snipers are destroyed by any melee willing to pay attention to them in this game.

In order from highest to lowest: 1. Marauders - Best defensive cooldowns in the game make up for lack of immediate burst; back-end damage rivals or superior to any class in the game. 2. Powertechs (Pyro) - Highest Melee DPS output in the game, amazing burst, lacking the cooldowns of the Marauder though. 3. Assasins (Hybrid) - Almost like a marauder with less impressive cooldowns, the assasin can whip out a ton of damage toward the back-end of a fight while also (when specced correctly) being arguably the tankiest DPS in the game. Having a DoT only sorcs and Operative healers can dispell helps too. 4. Sorcerers (DPS) - Ah yes... the sorcerer. Not overpowered anymore (no more perma-cc Hybrid spec) yet still in possession of the best CC and knockback in the game. Infinitely versatile, in the hands of the right player the Sorcerer is one of the best PvP classes in the game. In the hands of the wrong player, he's cannon fodder for the above classes however. 5. Operative (Healer) - It's hard to rank a healer I suppose, and one could arguably put operative healers ahead of sorcerers and assasisns, but at the same time it isn't as if a healer is going to kill either of those classes anyway. Operative healers, with their instant no-cooldown heals, decent CC and vanish are one of the most durable healers in the game, perfect for PvP. 6. Operative (Concealment) - Poor concealment operatives... nobody liked them at launch, and now they find themselves in limbo. Still possesing tremendous burst, they lack the cooldowns or sustained damage potential to really contribute to a team in a unique way not done better by one of the above classes. They can initiate a tremendous gank, but not much else. 7. Juggernauts (Any) - Probably the best ballhandler in Huttball, but recent nerfs have limited the rage tree to a gimmick spec and rendered these guys as purely support runners (aoe cc is great, lots of slow) in objectives. 8. Sorcerer / Mercenary Healers - Tons of interrupts in this game, these guys don't have the instant heals an operative can toss out. Just lack the durability to succeeed consistently, NEED a guard to be effective. 9. Mercenary (DPS) / Sniper - These poor non-force using ranged dps classes... at least the sniper has an interrupt. Could use a complete revamp for PvP viability. I'd say the balance is somewhere in the middle with sorcerer and operative healers... if we can buff/nerf everything to that level the game would be significantly better. Feel free to share thoughts/opinions.

lolwat?

Could you confirm what 4 DPS you used for this fight and whether it was prior to the very recent Merc DPS Nerfs?

We were able to down it tonight; we had 6 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank... It's a really heavy DPS gear check.

Can any (Rakata geared) class survive the explosion with a sorc shield up? (from running into an assassination droid)

:eek:Hello SWtoR forumgoers. I was hoping somebody could give me some tips on helping my raid with Hard Mode Colonel Vorgath. For whatever reason, we keep hitting an enrage on the turrets (the big ones before the boss fight) which wipes our whole raid. The only completion videos I've seen have all only had to down 3 Probes and disarm 3 bombs in order to make it all the way through. UNFORTUNATELY, it seems the number of disarms is completely random, from 3 on a lucky run to 5 if you are very unlucky. My raid almost always had 4 miniboss fights minimum, and while we were beating the enrage on those fights we still were unable to make it all the way across before the turrets enraged and killed us. SO... is this an intentional massive DPS gear check that we need to farm black hole gear for to be able to down 4 minibosses super fast... OR is it completely RNG based in that if we get a lucky grid layout (only 3 disarms) you can progress to the boss and clear. IS THERE ANYWAY TO GET 3 BOMB DISARMS EVERY TIME? AGHHH FRUSTRATION. Thanks in advance for any tips.

Once again, even if you decide not to use the BM Rifle you should use the Field Medic rakata variant instead of Scorekeeper.

That's with stim and 553 expertise.

Basing ~550 expertise ideal on this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=242994 and similar ones. I'm running with 357 surge, so well over the diminishing returns point.

I disagree with quite a few of your item choices. 1. 550 Expertise is the ideal number to mix around, not 500. It has been theorycrafted on various other threads. 2. Why would you choose Scorekeeper over Battlemaster Field Medic's Rifle or even Project STORM rifle? 3. You're losing over 100 power with those 2 implants. Please show me the stats that say we are at a huge hinderance not having 30% unbuffed since the surge nerf. 4. I use Battlemaster Field Medic's belt, but I think the stat differences are a wash between the two honestly. With all of those changes I am sitting at 32.52% tech crit chance with self buff and 632 power.