Must be nice. Try rolling a Commando and see how that compares.

Agree. Interesting to me how much talk there is about class balance, and yet, I have yet to see some real testing. It would be really nice to record several matches, at least, between a Mara/Sent and say my class, Commando. Video, plus parsed combat logs, not just who was still standing at the end. You'd have to keep variables constant, right, like gear and player skill, but if it could be set up, man, what the data would say. Interesting to me, given how valuable such testing would be, that I haven't found anything like this from either Bioware or players. It would first be up to BW to provide this, since all the code are belongs to them. I'd be willing to supply the Commando, but there's still the details of gear and skill to hammer out I suppose.

I never said they didn't, nor that MY Commando does not. We *can* wreck, but not "wreck face" unless the Commando is geared well and the target is a fresh 50 in greens and blues. Different from that example, things change. But, have you played a Commando? Have you seen your self: 1. Constantly interrupted so you can't cast your only real dps ability: grav while your health gets chunked down? 2. Have to turret to attempt #1 (stand still) and still not be able to "cast" your dps abilities? 3. Rely on one, long cooldown break to get out of trouble? Imagine for a moment what happens when you're on that cooldown... yea... BUT! Isn't that supposed to be the weaknesses of a dps class, because they can "wreck face", as you put it? So, while you're here, please list the weaknesses, similar to the above for the Commando, that an equally geared Marauder has. There has to be some, right? Please help me out and list them. I am being serious, I don't know the class other what is presented to me in matches, so help me out. I'd like to know what a class that is currently built for dps output AND mitigation has in terms of weaknesses. They have to exist, right? I mean, I play a Commando and the weaknesses are pretty clear. Thanks... fyi, for being such a great PvP tank, I'd expect the Marauder to have a weakness, say, in dps output. But that's not what I read, nor is that what I find in warzones. When I see a Marauder, unless he's craptastically geared, I see a class with BOTH high damage output AND high damage mitigation. Please explain if that's not truly the case. I'd like to know more. Thanks again.

How about 1v1, also a completely viable and legitimate circumstance which would show how completely wrong you are. First, without healing, any 1v1 or 8v8 encounter, EVERYONE is a measure SQUISHIER. It's that the collective combination of both damage mitigation AND high damage output is why Marauders and Sents are out of line with the rest of the classes. I won't say "OP" anymore because of the stereotypes it's created. But there is little doubt that those classes have a collective presence in fights that the rest of the classes would like to have but don't. Switch to a Commando and then tell me how well you do versus your Marauder. Until then, you have little understanding. Until then, everyone who decries your class is an automatic "whiner". Right?

Wow, someone actually uses their @#$% brain and puts up something intelligent instead of "QQ more nubs". This is spot on, and as a Commando, I feel exactly this every day I log on. My Demo Round was reduced in dps a good 20% in 1.0.2c, noticing how Bioware intentionally neglects to put it in the patch notes, yet other Commandos parsing their combat logs have attested to and is pretty visible while in the game myself. Second, Maras/Sents were pretty strong as it was before 1.2, and only more so now. So the gap widened with the true "dps" classes getting hit in their primary role. Commandos have @#$% for damage mitigation, as some would say is exactly the weakness a dps class SHOULD have. I am ok with that. But when an already strong melee class like the Marauder gets a bump in 1.2 to make them even stronger, I'd like someone to please point out FROM THE COMMANDO PERSPECTIVE what weakness do THEY have that I am to exploit? Anyone? I've fought many of them and come to the conclusion they are missing it on the same scale my class has its own weakness. Please explain to me how this melee tank specc'd class should be allowed the best damage output ALONG with some of the best damage mitigation? Really? And it's not just voicing many others' whines, it is truly what I have seen in many WZ matches, now VR 81. Given similar skill and gear, tell me who you'd bet your actual money on - the Marauder or the Commando? Exactly.

Not your average piece of advice for an MMO, but does that make it less worthy to discuss? TO PEE OR NOT TO PEE...

Uh, it's STAR WARS, NOT EVE. Coming here to tell me kids play STAR WARS is like telling me "Hey, anyone notice the sky is blue?". WoW.

I have to agree, without going into details. The one thing I know, above all the numbers and parsing of combat logs, is that my Commando, my only character I have consistently played since early release and now VR 80, is no longer fun to play. And I am not willing to roll a FOTM class to compensate, not going to happen. I invested sweat and time into my Commando and instead of it paying off in added fun, BW decides to gouge my damage once again while neglecting to put the changes in the 1.0.2c patch notes. I won't tolerate that, so it's time to cancel. No worries, though, there are alternatives, and SWTOR is just another MMO.

thanks

If I recall, the 2 pc set bonus from War Hero reduced the CD of CC by 5 seconds, yet, when I remove or add my WH helm (I have WH helm and chest), the 20s CD for this ability remains at 20s. Should it be 15s with the set bonus? Why does the CD remain the same if I remove one WH piece (thus removing the 5s CD bonus)? What is the lowest possible value this CD can be reduced to, and how? Anyone know? thanks...

I'll settle for a handful of screenshots (not cherry picked by you, but the next actual 5 or so matches no matter how well you did) between you and a Marauder or Jugg with similar gear. Nothing fixed or rigged, just your average fight with things being as equal as possible. Remember my problem is not with team play, you're not getting my point. The problem is class balance between individuals. Not gear, the class itself. With 1.2, BW relegated my Medic spec to 2nd or 3rd class citizen over the heal spec'd Sage. Why? I understand the nerf because in PvP it was way OP to get a healer down, but what about PvE? You don't have knock the class down in PvE to make it fit into PvP, they've already shown abilities that are PvE only, so why the changes? Second, Commandos are dps focused, with obvious weaknesses in damage mitigation, interrupts, and overall longevity. When BW keeps gouging your main role, what is left? What happens to balance when they take an already strong melee class and make them even stronger? What sense does that make? When I fight a class 1v1 or even in a team setting, I'd like some weaknesses to exploit, since my own class has some pretty glaring ones. I exploit his weaknesses, he exploits mine. It comes down to a close fight, and the loser tries again. That's the basic expectation anyone would have. Anyone getting rolled is due to 1. lack of skill 2. lack of gear 3. lack of balance. When my class lacks any real breaks, explain to me, given how long and numerous the stuns melee classes have, how am I supposed to perform my class's primary role (dps)? Hmm? I use Tenacity, then promptly get put into another stun. I knock him back, he leaps back. I freeze him, he breaks. Rarely have I been in any fight with a melee where they are not in my face, and I've expended ALL abilities to the contrary. Tenacity, Concussion Charge, Cryo grenade, Concussion Round. Whether its leap or ranged saber throws, they get all the tools in the chest. When just damage mitigation isn't enough, BW hands them a DPS silvered spoon on a platter so not only can they magically mitigate damage, but they deal it in amounts greater than my own. Please explain to me how that is balance. Please show me some shots or vids that show what you specifically do when facing melee to decimate them, and from there, I'll have a better idea what to do myself. Because I've run the gamut of my Commando's abilities and I've yet to find a viable way.

This. There are many alternatives to swtor, it's better to play something that is actually fun and engaging than a game that reduces your class into what it is today while intentionally leaving out those changes in the patch notes. It's the lack of honesty that gets me, that was the final straw. My class is no longer fun in pvp, and what has helped bring me to this point. The best message is the one you put in the cancel sub page. I don't think forums do much.

I'll wait here for a vid from you where you decimate all the other classes 1v1 or otherwise with your Assault Commando. And don't film the ones in Recruit, I'd like to see equal gear. What better way for me to "re-learn my role" than to watch an expert like you? Let me know when you post it, I'll definitely watch it. thanks!

So explain how saber toting tanks who can mitigate damage also put out ridiculous numbers? Wasn't it supposed to be that all classes had a balanced combination of strengths and weaknesses? I play a Commando, and the weaknesses of my class are pretty damn clear. I have NO tools to mitigate interrupts while my main dps ability is CASTED. Big hole here. I've stopped counting the times in the same warzones that I've been chain interrupted since 1.2. I have to SIT STILL to cast. There's another hole. I have next to nothing to mitigate incoming dps. I see the gross class imbalances whether in team play or 1v1. A Jugg or Marauder jump me, with all the CC and tricks they get and before I am able to do anything in return, I am down a third of my health. I have to sit still to cast, so I try that. Nope, interrupted. Try again and by now I am less than half. Now consider a warzone. Same thing happens only faster since TTK has gone through the floor. Add into this 1.2c where Bioware decides to nerf Commando's Demo Round a nice 25% across the board. I played last night to see this ability made a huge step close to useless. It hits for far less, it crits for far less, and my class was struggling to begin with. But they decide to give other classes every @#$%ing tool a class CAN have?

I agree, and that's why I won't be renewing my sub. BW isn't balancing classes, they're outright ruining the fun from playing Commando and giving unfair advantages to others. Playing a Commando used to be fun, not anymore.

Working as intended, except the part where they intentionally neglect putting their BS nerf into the patch notes. I've been watching my Demo Rounds hit for **** compared to before. I am lucky to see 3k. VR 80, 2 pc WH, rest BM. I am done with this game. Riding the free month and cancelling. Not going to put up with BW's brain damage. They screwed with the class that needed the help while bumping up classes that were already strong. I am sick of WZs being tanks and healers and zero fun. What's all the work and time invested in WH and good gear when all Commandos are getting is kicked over and over? Not putting their garbage changes in the patch notes was the last straw. I'm done.

Oh, so says the simple mind. When you consider the many lines of code governing a class outside its textures or quest lines, things are far from black and white, as you'd like to think because it's easier for you. It's pretty obvious, too, when you go from people asking for fair change to claiming they do it only because they can't win against a certain class. Although I agree that skill has a lot to do with performance, class abilities and talents also play a huge role. As a software tester, some of my test cases surrounding the objective of ensuring class balance is measuring how the PvP experience changes when I go from 1v1 fights to 8v8 fights, as that was the direction BW took the game. Oh, it's different? Of course it is! Take a class and give it weaknesses when it comes to interrupts, CC, and damage mitigation (Commandos w/ casted dps) and put them up against a class that naturally (via talents and abilities) has one or none (Marauders: damage mitigation, interrupts, gap closers, dps, etc) and the result becomes pretty clear: class balance has NOT been maintained. When you give a class ALL the tools there are to give and pigeonhole others, you get what we have today in the game. That part IS simple. I'd be far happier with SOME class balance vs LITTLE class balance but again, this, as well as lots else, isn't cleanly and conveniently summarized into a neat little package where tards come off the shortbus, adorning their helmets while screaming, "OH QQ more newbs, omg!" There IS such a thing as class balance. Each class is supposed to have certain strengths and certain weaknesses. In PvP play, in all its forms, those imbalances will come out. I won't agree with every claim, but I've been playing since release and I know BW has yet to get this facet of the game right. No, it's not easy, yes I am willing to give them some time to figure it out. But the clock is ticking.

This is why I am looking to GW2. Yea, balance is a potential problem everywhere, but the way I see it, BW doesn't have much of a clue when it comes to balance. They make sweeping changes to classes in a single patch, that alone tells me they need serious help. You never make simultaneous nerfs to many classes and buffs to others in the same patch, never. They did and have the abomination they have now. Melee tanks are putting out WAY too much dps while having every other tool in the box. But when you copy and paste the same combat model from other MMOs, you also inherit the problems like class balance so you better get it right and get it right fast. Good thing the free month is now or I'd be tempted to cancel.

Are you liking GW2? I am considering it myself and I'd like to know how it is. Thx. And I don't G.A.F if it's a swtor forum, as far as I am concerned, class balance in this game is because I am asking, so it's related.

Sabotage - Beastie Boys

I agree it was one of the best MMOs, ahead of its time. I had an Infiltrator and I've never had as much fun since in a game. The main reason was open realm pvp actually worked. Everyone had keeps to defend or take. Everyone had their own backyard which spurred pride in each of the owning realms. It had crafting which was the sole source for the best gear in the game. So once you got the best gear you could, you switched to PvP and were able to focus on the gameplay itself, not your gear. WoW changed all that with their gear whoring system. Artifacts and having to level them started the point at which DAoC began to decline. But there in lies the challenge of any MMO owner; to keep enough players interested to keep the game profitable for years down the road. Few have done that well. And yea, DAoC still has players. Look at the cash cow it is today. I see it in the news all the time, in fact /sarcasm

Well, for a game that is gear dependent, glaring class deficiencies are made worse and show themselves pretty handily in PvP. Marauders were tough to take down with all the damage mitigation and interrupts and BW decided to give them a handy buff while smacking other classes. That was a stupid move, imo. They're pigeonholing PvP and its obvious since 1.2. And I think the longer they keep it this way, the more Tanks will level and the more you will see in PvP, especially when rated hits. Nothing like getting tanks and healers to level like this before 1.2 comes out, just like prancing in a meat suit in front of a pack of rabid Pitbulls. Like I said, I think BW screwed the player base with class changes in this patch. There is no doubt in my mind. The happy ones are the tanks and healers, few else. But for Gun Commandos, I don't think we need more damage, I think we need some utility to make us far more viable. We have almost zero damage mitigation and 1 CC break. That one break is nearly useless because of the chain stunning, chain interrupting, and chain ensnaring going on. This is the same thing that killed DAoC pvp and Mythic couldn't figure out class balance for the longest time while players screamed (that was when leveling to 50, btw, took 7 months, and that was fast). I am afraid the same thing will happen here.

I'll admit I've never spec'd assault from what I've read about, but the interesting thing is I broke my pre 1.2 dps Warzone record of 409k with a 429k within a day of 1.2's release. I don't hit 400k often, but 300's is common. I am pretty happy with Gunnery still and am usually near the top in dps each match. I don't have a reason to respec at the moment. I don't know what others are doing or how they're geared, but that's me.

Hi. I've been playing a gunnery Commando since release and have been having quite some fun with the class. 1.2 and class balance being borked by BW aside, I wanted to share what I've learned in warzones. I usually don't have the contiguous hours to sink into PvE, although I'd like to. So my focus has been PvP since 50. Below are a few things I've learned that work well. VR 79, 2 pieces WH, rest BM. Yes, I would say the PvP experience is most definitely tied to how well you're geared. 1. Concussion Charge - I use this underused gem to send Imps flying over the ledges in Voidstar or off catwalks in Huttball. Nothing brings a smile like dumping 1, 2 and even 3 Imp chumps over the edge and to instant death. I stay in the "sweet spot" range near the edges while helping my team with the door. Remember you don't need to be on the bridge to dump Imps, as there are the edges perpendicular to the bridge that have no walls (on the side where the doors are). Use them. Also remember as Imps die on part 2, they have to run across the bridge so you have opportunities to make it rain Imps during the entire stage. - Go Imp Fishing. Use C. Charge after luring an Imp to within "the chump dump" zone (move in the direction of the ledge). When inside the zone, simply walk through the Imp (no collision makes this possible) so he/she is between you and the ledge, then pop CC and send them into the abyss. Works well with melee classes who won't leave you alone. When you use CC as much as I do, you get to learn exactly where you can stand in relation to where the Imp is and the ledge, use CC to dump their !@# over. "Insta kill dps? I'll take 2, please." Also remmeber if you didn't quite land them over the edge, you can use Stock Stike to send back over the edge to correct that. In fact stock strike is great anywhere near a ledge in addition to C. Charge. - Use CC to harass a healer. Not only does it push them away from their team, but the small duration ensnare helps keep them from fulfilling their only role - healing. Knock them out of range, keep them off balance. Just because you can't solo a healer even after 1.2 doesn't mean you can't take them out of the role for a healthy duration [Dead Healer = Live Healer who isn't healing]. Just attacking a healer often forces them to focus on that fact (you) which detracts them from doing their job. Meanwhile, the rest of your team can help burn down the others even if you are the solo one attacking the healer. When I see no one attacking a healer, I open up on them and more often than not, it really helps. Try Tech Override + Concussion Charge here. 2. In Civil War - I never go head first into the fray. I do tend to hit mid first with my team, butI go under the battlements on the left or right, never straight towards the node. I launch a Cryo to nail the first Imp to walk closest to the node to force him/her to pop break. The more Imps on break CD early on, the better. I hug the side of the ramp on the Repub side (out of sight of the Imp side of the node) so as to stay out of LOS of the dumber Snipers and ranged who sit out in the open. The more you force Imps to walk or change position to get in LOS of you, the better for you. Use the plethora of architecture in Mid to your advantage. 3. Huttball - Eh, I suck at Huttball. I am the one who needs help here. lol. Great for Concussion Charge tho. I use that a lot. Really. A lot. I've come to the conclusion this is the weakest map for Troops, built more for pullers and stealthers than it is for us. But Concussion Charging Imps into the green goo and fire is definitely something to be practiced and admired when you get right. Follow up dumping one into the goo or fire with a Cryo grenade or FA if you've upgraded it to the ensnare. 4. Novare - On open, I like to run behind the Southern hut and flank the Imps from the south. Then I get between them and the hut and Concussion Charge them away from the hut toward their spawn. Southern is important imo because it puts your side's foothold on the map within stone's throw of the Imp spawn point. Ranged here are great because you can slow or stun any reinforcements coming out of the gate and not only hinder their ability to take South but also reinforce East or West nodes. 5. Voidstar - Similar to Civil War, significant amounts of architecture to weave in and out of (columns), use LOS to cut down on incoming dps and force Imps to move to get you. Mortar Volley is great on doors or anytime Imps are clumped together like a short bus full of kids. So is Plasma Grenade or Tech Override + Plasma G. In General - Gunnery Commandos are forced to turret to do deal the lion's share of our dps. Because of auto aim, this isn't as bad as you think. I can't tell you the number of Imps I've burned down sitting perfectly still and not reacting to getting hit. I stick to my rotation [grav x 3 > DR > grav x 2 > HIB] and FA when CoF procs. Sitting still has it's drawbacks but trying to move away as a Trooper with all the gap closing abilities on the Imp side is pretty futile. IMO, it's better to lay down a wall of lead on the way down than it is to move and deal less dps and still go down. - Tech Override is Concussion Round's best friend. If, after a Cryo, an Imp pops break, this combo will send them instantly into a nice duration stun (assuming Resolve isn't full) or any time their break is on CD. Use this gem often not only when you're getting harassed, but also to take out a healer or another key role in the early stages of a fight. Not only will this help your team but the earlier you use it, the more often you can pop this combo in the span of a single Wz. It's great slowing down Imps in Novare on their way to reinforce or take another node. Slow them down if you can't kill them outright. - Full Auto feels more effective than ever post 1.2. It seems to fire for much longer and the damage is far clearer than before. Upgrade it and use it on CoF procs. - Demo Round record for me so far is 7440k but usually lands between 5-6k. It definitely got bumped, so use it often with the GR debuff. Some 1.2 observations: Commandos were moderately weak (assuming equal gear and play) against Marauders and Juggs pre 1.2, and post 1.2 this only got worse. Since 1.2, I've noticed MANY more tanks in Wzs and this means more often getting chain interrupted. How BW didn't see this coming is explained as easily anything else "they didn't see" before. I've been testing software for 14 years and these kinds of issues are seen early by even green testers. I don't know why they're allowing classes to be chain interrupted, but I probably don't have to explain to you what it means for a turret dps class when they can't lay down their only dps ability that depends on casting. Is the sky falling for Troopers? No, I don't think so. Did we get handed significant challenges beyond a measure of fairness? I'd say yes because the Trooper was a poor 1v1 class even before 1.2 which was made only worse since. But I will give BW a little time to balance the classes out. My litmus test for cancelling will be when my class is no longer fun to play, not the patch notes. When that happens, I will be gone for sure because I am not interested in rerolling a toon in response to code changes to my main. Other than porking class balance, I like 1.2. Warzones makeup for Empire is shifting to Tanks + Healers. Very tough to beat even with a good team on Republic side. On my server, there seems to be a shortage of healers and tanks to combat this with. And this is the glaring class imbalance made crystal clear. A specific group make up on one side dominates a good team of any other make up on the other except if the makeup is the same. If I face this makeup on the Empire side and do not have equal tanks and healers on mine, it won't matter what stars I am grouped with, we won't win. The PvE model of strict class group makeup shouldn't apply as strictly in PvP, otherwise what you get is what we have today. And you know right now damn well what rated Wzs are going to look like. Hope this gives some Commandos something new to try out. The Concussion Charge is a great ability and very powerful when used effectively. Tech Override, Reserve Powercell, and smart use of Concussion Charge are all underused, from what I've seen in Warzones. Practice often with it and use it intelligently; make Imps land where you want them to and use it offensively to keep a player from doing his/her job (healing). On a 15s upgraded cooldown, it can be used a lot. Look at your abilities page, and think about how you can use ability X different than you've done in the past given the warzone, the architecture inside, and your rotation(s). Good Hunting, Troopers.

I am not really happy with the game post 1.2 myself. I've noticed a crazy TTK uptick which made an average experience in PvP almost deplorable. These sweeping class changes have made it even more so important to roll in PvP with an outstanding premade. Otherwise, the game is simply the SUCK. I don't know what tank class it is on the Empire side, but I was being chain interrupted on grav rounds. Explain to me what in God's name does a Gunnery Commando with ZERO interrupt mitigation do while being chain interrupted in the only ability I have to deal out any dps? Seriously, tell me what I am doing wrong and Ill change it. I've scoured my abilities page for ideas.