I do not recall laughing at anyone, only discussing the difference in damage potentials via parsing. I don't come to the class forums to puff my chest out and "laugh" at people...I actually try to actively discuss specs, damage, parses, play styles, and performance. But, if you say so. Anyway, trash mobs...sticky, HiB. if HiB crits, switch. IP, HiB. Well, not reliable now I guess if you like the 4m melee style of the class, good for you...I enjoyed the ability to remain <10m and DPS, especially in PvP. I think the change is garbage. Now, instead of strategically setting up for trash mobs where I can switch and lose 0 GCD's on "auto attacking" with a reliable 10m proc...now I have to run to 4m, like every other melee class, and apply...Which is a DPS loss, and which I will not do. I'll play a saber wielding class if I want to melee. (other than situational. I like to use SS on occasion, especially as a finisher for lawls) And don't get me started on a punch or stock strike to fire DoT a target.. That is asinine. Well, in my 8-8-30 spec, on boss mobs, it's has not been much of an issue, so far...from the zones I've ran. Still pulled 2293 on Brax and 2581 on Gil in MR (ALL top 5 VG parses in MR) so, I must be doing something right., in 69/69/66 gear. 72/69/69 MH/OH. Had some pretty nice parses in CZ zones as well...would like to see how they stack up once they are available to view on torparse. EDIT: for accuracy, grammar

I'm REALLY disliking the CGC proc reduction on IP/FB maybe it's just muscle memory, but I found myself not able to reliably DoT and RS/HiB trash mobs in PvE and target switching in PvP. IM/IR is a waste of a GCD in those situations... I'm praying to baby jesus for some DoT immunity. and I guess i'll just have to adjust in PvE

Ran just a couple parses...nothing major, nothing clipped. same situation, 69/69/66 gear, 72/69/69 MH/OH. DPS looks like it is up 200-300 depending on RNG.

In PvE, I disagree. PvP has too many variable, and a highly skilled player can excel with any class. Versus equally skilled players, it does have its glaring weaknesses. The sky is not falling, but it is hard to go from driving a Ferrari to a Fiat. (and watching others getting upgrades almost every patch) And I truly don't believe 2.0 PT/VG would be OP in 2.4.

Because PT/VG DPS is obvi...ha...obvios...haha...obviously over powered. sorry, couldn't even get that out without laughing.

Exactly. I try to stick with somebody in every WZ (teamwork). Funny story, friend of mine said to me in Vent yesterday (Shadow, btw), "I win almost all of my WZ's when I group with you." My answer, "I'm a good teammate " We always off-cap nodes, kill healers, and follow the flow of the match. Anyway, I've done my testing, and I just do what works best for me (based off my parsing and experience). Others results may vary. My 2.4 testing is limited to 2 WZ's and 5 hours of parsing on PTS...My experiences might change.

or...or... perhaps hundreds of parses and thorough testing has shown and proven that taking TD/AP or Riot Augs and using RP/SS COULD result in a lack of DPS, depending on the RNG. Therefore, over the course of many, many parses, the average DPS wound up being slightly higher in a live situation (not considering burst), NOT using TD/AP or RP/SS in a NON-Hybrid spec. i.e. 8-8-30. Proof, Torparse...i.e. math. undeniable proof. In PvP, yeah TD/AP has always been solid choice for burst POTENTIAL. (again RNG reliant)

^^^ Balancing based off of metrics is lazy, plain and simple. It is balance based off the average of a large pool, and does not take into consideration the strengths and weaknesses, which is why there is such a disparity in classes right now, i.e. DPS leaderboards, PvP FotM's (actually, FotY, if you understand the vernacular ) Anyone who has performed a serious experiment, has recorded its results, and measured versus a controlled environment would understand this. There are many variable and situations that need to be taken into consideration. And I believe metrics is just the easiest way they can achieve "balance", due to the lack of professional, experienced, thorough testing. Math is quite simple, and beyond fault, as it is finite. As long as you take into consideration all aspects and situations that can and will arise, and adjust accordingly, i.e. testing, both test group and controlled group in PvE, PvP, and versus. Metrics do not do this. It takes the median average, and they adjust based off of this. Lazy man's testing.

Guess it will be a good time to level up some of my alts thru lowbie PvP (always fun) and class stories. I still enjoy 55 PvP, but it painfully obvious the disparity between classes...And even further when there is no match making system, or pre-made, competent teams vs casuals. ...and I believe it'll be much longer than 2 months

I'm going to have to vehemently disagree with you. There is much more to SWTOR than Arenas. What needs to happen is simple math, along with situational circumstances (i.e. cleanses, resistances, armor bypass, etc.) Arena balancing would require all classes balanced in burst DPS, healing capacity, and tanking capacity. As long as this can be performed while improving the gross imbalance in PvE DPS, healing, and tanking, then sure, I'm all for it. But balance cannot be achieved from Arena input alone. That is common sense.

I just don't get it. PRE 2.0, yeah...PT/VG burst was 2nd to none. In 2.4, it would be right in line. so take a 10, nerf it to a 2...ignore DPS leaderboards and AC's like madness, pyro, anything not SW/JK or sniper/slinger... I guess i'm just crazy...

Yeah, I agree Burst or bust. And PT/VG got busted in 2.0, taking away our burst.

Could not agree with you more. That is why some classes are viable, and some classes are not. For example, I can constantly top DPS/Damage in nearly all my warzones (VG/Assault), that doesn't mean I'm killing anyone, especially Op/Sc healers, or a group that has a good one. Arenas, SERIOUS competition...ALL ABOUT BURST, or absolute perfect teamwork.

Naw mate!!! I love me a good tank!! I used to love tanking back in the day, EQ2 especially...I've just lost my patience tanking for ******** DPS that think it's their job to pull mobs and run the show. When I DPS, my goal is to make the tanks job easier, not harder...and protect the healer from any adds, or gankers in PvE/PvP...and destroy the other DPS on the parses If I had a solid crew, I'd be rocking tank spec all day!! all my long time gamer friends left @ 1.2...like SWG's CU HB seems to be the only place a tank spec can really shine in PvP...other than being a healer's bodyguard.

Agree to disagree, then. I'm top damage in 90%+ of my WZ's on all the characters I play...I excel at DPS (but admittedly SUCK at healing) I know when to use my stuns, interrupt, always taunting, how to time TD/AP to align with RS/HiB for maximum burst, etc. I play the class very well. On the other hand, I fumble around on my marauder (have never like "builder" classes) and just hate sitting on my sniper...yet, I pull the same numbers, if not better, and have little to no difficulties soloing healers or 2v1's. Was server first BM on my Deception Assassin, and still do quite well when I WZ once a month with him... VG/PT lacks any serious burst versus a semi-competent player, so again...Great in regs, mediocre at best in COMPETITIVE PvP. As far as "it takes a bit more thinking" argument. What? to now press RP/SS instead of spamming FB/RP. throw in a TD/AP-FB/IP-RP/SS combo on TD/AP CD...that's more thinking? pfft... 3 letters...R...N...G...if the stars line up, there is the "potential" for burst...I can RELIABLY burst on all my other classes I PvP with, marauder, automatically. so, my problem with VG/PT is RELIABLE BURST. sustained DPS...I can sustain DPS all day, everyday, any class...or stealth out and live to play another day...I gotta pray to the D&D dice god on my VG. that **** don't fly against QUALITY players. EDIT: No, I don't go around DoT'ing people up to fluff my damage...I'm objective oriented in PvP, like to kill healers, and again...taunt all the time.

And I will, versus healers and non-melee classes. In those other instances, I'll be staying, or attempting to stay, out of range in which the opponent can do damage to me. I just find it inducive to survival. Since I find myself kiting about 75% of the time, RP/SS isn't gonna be highly used skill, which is very convenient that CGC is now more reliant on this skill. * The change to CGC proc is a great move, that will no doubt enhance the damaging abilities to a DPS class that has been at the bottom of the list in terms of DPS since its massive nerfing in 2.0. Not only does it make the class more competitive versus sentinels and marauders, it only makes sense to proc a fire DoT from either the end of your fist or the butt of your rifle, instead of a wrist-mounted flamethrower, or a ion pulse from a blaster rifle. *- Denotes HEAVY sarcasm. The person in charge of QA'ing these decisions, as well as the hideous armor, is a dick...IMHO.

you mean like: maybe it's a perception issue?

Great info in here. Also, I believe the level of burst versus sustained (versus the level of healing) needs to be adjusted as well. Just because one AC can produce 3k on a dummy, doesn't mean it will be competitive in PvP, where burst is king. well, wish in one hand and ***** in the other...see which one fills up first. I've had a *****ty hand for about a year now

If you're skilled, you won't "hurt" the team... but, you won't be making any DPS leaderboards or be competitive in DPS. But, if you play it well, like it, and have a good team, you can clear any content.

From a certain point of view, yes. Assault: With the TD/AP buff, they are nerfing IM/IR. pretty much a DPS wash in PvE. DCD's in PvE, I guess if you're soloing 50 HM FPs...great TD/AP buff, FB/IP nerf (proc 100% down to 60%). what this means is a timely cleanse (or counter DCD i.e. resilience, undying rage, force shroud) removes the ability to Rail Shot/HiB, and negates TD/AP damage. With FB proc down to 60%, either reapply DoT with a nerfed IM, or spend 1-3 GCD's attempting to reapply CGC, via FB/IP, for use of RS/HiB. even further reducing our underwhelming burst, especially on classes that can cleanse or negate Tech dmg...healers, especially. DCD's are fine if you're solo PvP. In a group (read competitive) environment, they will provide a boost if you have a mediocre healer. that's just my opinion. currently, I survive better on my VG than on my SmashMara and still do about the same damage. And I'm still button smashing on my Mara. Once I get to the level of skill I am at with my VG, my survivability will go up, as will my already equal damage. I haven't mentioned the burst on my Marauder (as I don't believe I have to, by now). Nerf, no...I guess... Improvement, no...as well. (unless you're a regstar)

^^^ Pyro will still lack the burst needed to burn through the level of heals versus a semi competent team. Not to mention, FB not procing CGC 100%...so, a timely cleanse will leave the Pyro unable to Rail Shot, and have to spend 1 GCD using a nerfed IM to RELIABLY reapply a dot, to allow the use of RS. Or, you can FB (100% snare proc) hope for a CGC proc, and waste 1-3 GCDs to use RS. Thus, further reducing our lackluster burst. Versus regs, play what you like...competitive, tank or AP. Same in PvE, just in case you were wondering.

I cannot say it is unjustified. VG/PT used to be very competitive, and even sought after in groups, both PvE and PvP. Now, we're several hundred, if not thousand in some instances, behind in DPS in PvE. (and I push top numbers in Assault spec...I could get higher #'s in hybrid, I'm stubborn, and refuse to play a spec I do not like, just to be on a leaderboard) In PvP, I get laughed at by operative healers as I try to burn them down. I have had success vs Sorcs and Merc healers, but I can honestly say they probably weren't that good. 2.4 brings very little in terms of changes that appeal to me. DCD's, pfft. I'd rather be ~5% of snipers and marauders. I can stay alive longer to produce fluff DPS numbers in a WZ and not have the burst to kill anything...GREAT! or, I can have DCD's in an OP/FP that I should NEVER be using, while still producing mediocre DPS...EVEN BETTER! I understand the rage. If it weren't for the fact I've given up all hope on MMO's achieving balance and producing content greater than can be consumed, hence me becoming a "casual" gamer, I'd be raging, too. Beta: IA/Op/Concealment - nerfed PT and Merc/Firebug - nerfed Live: Assy/Deception(pre 1.2) - nerfed Merc/PT - nerfed VG/Assault - nerfed Sniper - raid toon, guild fell apart. Guess I just need to suck it up and main a SW/JK, to be competitive.

LOL at buffed. Now I know you're full of hot air. DPS class gets DCD buffs. No thanks. I'd rather have my DPS be competitive (~5%) of top performing AC's. Use a better example next time.

I do not think they have an answer for these questions, 2 and 3 specifically. There is no way the metrics can show anything positive and I am not completely sure they have an immediate fix to make Shadow/Assy DPS competitive anytime soon. DPS leaderboards are all the metrics I need to see. Until DPS specs are ~5%, or bring an absolutely vital buff/ability to a group or raid, there is no excuse to continue to ignore, or do nothing about, the large disparity among top performing AC's. How difficult is it to look back at when these underperforming classes were viable (1.2 and 2.0 nerfs) and scale them accordingly with 2.4 top performing AC's? Shadow/Assy nerfs, Assault/Pyro nerfs, Scoundrel/Op nerfs...and what are top performing AC's now? none of these...un-nerf the nerfs. Looking forward to, "the combat team feels... metrics show... is performing as expected...we'll monitor performance...and possibly correct in the future..." When actual numbers show otherwise.

Can you cleanse a marauder, sniper, assassin execute?