^^This. As an Arsenal Mercenary I used to think that I could be helpful by following the ball carrier or even trying to carry the ball myself in Huttball, but I've found that if I stand in the middle of the map where the ball spawns and spam attacks on anyone that gets within range while keeping the enemy clear of the spawn point and immediately grabbing the ball and passing it when it does spawn, I'm pretty much as useful as I can be to my team. Mercenaries can't pull targets, we can't charge over open gaps to targets, we can't increase our speed, we can't disappear, we don't have amazing survivability, and our knockback, while useful, is limited. What we can do is stand and spam missiles, which is useful at times, but we don't have the utility of other classes.

...Which is exactly the case with stealth classes. Even if you're not fighting back, you're getting damaged, and thus you stay in combat.

If you had to have an intention to fight to be in combat, no new 50's would ever die to BM geared PVP'ers because they'd decline. Warzones aren't duels where you have to accept combat; if you're in a warzone, your intention IS to fight already. My tracer ability gets locked out by melee classes all the time, which hurts my DPS by a lot because Heatseeker Missiles and Railshot depend on it partially and because Unload procs don't happen if I'm not using Tracers. I don't complain, I just try to compensate and keep going. It gives me a rare chance to justify not spamming Tracers!

The thing about healing is that if we see someone healing, like you said, we can stop them by interrupting them, assuming their resolve bar isn't full. Likewise, if we see a stealth class, we can stop you by attacking you. That example doesn't help you. It's the way it SHOULD be. Every ability has a counter ability. When it comes to stealthing, we can counter it by attacking you. You think I don't get irritated when I jump up to do Death From Above on a group of people and I immediately get stunned, wasting my CD and losing out on dealing a lot of damage? Sure I do, but I don't ask Bioware to make me invulnerable during Death From Above or to put it on a 1 second CD or to reduce the CD every time I take damage. If someone is attentive enough and quick enough to stun me when I fly up in the air to start slaughtering people, I tip my cap to them and keep on playing. Likewise, if someone is attentive enough to notice that you're a stealth class and they want to throw a quick DOT on you so that you don't sneak up behind them in slaughter them, you really don't have a good reason to complain. Be upset, but accept it.

So you're arguing that you should be allowed to stealth whenever you want to, basically? Trust me, we non-stealth DPS don't like it when you stealth and run away like a you-know-what in the middle of a fight that you're clearly going to lose, so if you don't like it when we tab to you, hit you, and move on, that just makes us even. To me, hitting a stealth class and preventing them from stealthing means preventing them from coming up behind me and surprise attacking me. Why would I NOT want to do that? Why should stealth classes get rewarded if I do that? That makes no sense.

Earlier this week we were down 4-0 in Huttball with 4 minutes left. The majority of you spineless defeatists out there would say "Ah, just let them score two more times, obviously you can't beat them, may as well get it over with.". Well, they got careless, started farming kills, we drew them off towards the sides and our goal, and we set up a quick passing chain and we wound up winning 5-4. That's a victory that we wouldn't have had "any chance" of getting according to a lot of quitters out there, and yet we still won. If you're going to give up the second you're behind, what's the point of playing the damn warzone to begin with?? There is no such thing as being mathematically eliminated in Alderaan Civil War until the game is over. Even if the score is 520 - 50 and you're about to lose, if you push hard and manage to 3 cap you can still win, however unlikely it may be. It's especially stupid to give up when you're talking about a score like 580 - 450 or something. So what if they 3 cap at that point? Take the nodes back! You have plenty of time. The only people pushing for quick losses are people valor farming or people with a defeatist attitude. Neither of those groups matters; if you don't like games taking the full duration, please don't play warzones.

It's funny how you post a thread on a public forum and then get mad when the public responds to or comments on it. If you only wanted BIOWARE's answer, why didn't you just E-Mail them? And where's the proof that arenas would equal a financial gain for Bioware? You talk as if that's a given when it's really not at all. Arenas in WoW started a ridiculous juggling act of every single class, spec, and ability. Blizzard had to constantly make major changes to classes that affected them in PVE just to try to even out arenas. Every single thing that Blizzard wanted to do with a class had to, above all else, fit for arenas first. If you make a system like that in TOR, classes are going to go through the same carousel of constant changes and it's going to be really irritating. The argument for people leaving over this can be just as easily made as the argument you're making about more people coming for arenas. So with no guarantee of a dime of profit, why would Bioware be worried about implementing an arena system when they have so many things that they can do with existing systems like space combat and Illum? There's no point.

1k a match? You'll be getting 2k per match on medals alone, before win bonuses or finishing the match valor or anything else is added in. Illum is one of the few things in this game that is terrible... It doesn't work anything like it's supposed to. Really it doesn't even make sense at all. What's the benefit in capturing the bases right now? What does it actually do? Why are the speeder flight paths in locations where you have to jump off and take a lot of fall damage every time you die just to get back down unless you want to slowly wall jump? What's the actual objective in Illum besides lining up and giving each other kills? It needs to be fixed.

They ought to just put a spectator mode into warzone matches... If you quit, you're thrown into a spectator's section where all you get to do is watch until the match is over, unable to leave and unable to get any credit for any of it.

Thanks! But it's so much easier to let someone else do that for me! Anyway... "Medals are now worth 500 Valor and 10 Commendations. Players only earn Valor and Commendations for the first 4 medals earned each match. *UPDATED 2/28*" I think that cutting off the first part where valor is increased times ten and commendations are doubled was kind of lame. Giving the negative change without the positive part is just trying to stir stuff up. Right now you can get 10 medals and get 500 valor and 50 commendations. Now you can get 4 medals and get 2,000 valor and 40 commendations. Is this really a big deal? Generally if you're getting more than 10 medals you're purposefully farming for medals, so just get over it.

Where did you see this at?

Eh, we're a guild of good friends that all live in the same area and that played WoW together from 2005 until SWTOR came out, so kicking him isn't an option. I just want him to either suck it up and accept that he needs to get better at Huttball in order to realize that it does involve a lot of skill and teamwork to have good matches or to stop whining about it and writing it off as all "luck" to everyone else.

A guildie and I had a big argument today in guild chat about Huttball. He said something about Huttball involving "little-to-no skill" and I told him that he was wrong. He doesn't even have a level 50 yet, several characters in the 30's and 40's, and hasn't PVP'ed in weeks because he always says "I refuse to pvp until they remove Huttball". My argument is that he doesn't understand how to play if he's always getting knocked off things and dominated. I explained to him that if you work as a team and decoy the enemy away while you jump down low and set up a sneaky pass, etc. you can use SKILL to win the game. He didn't want to hear that and just responded "No whoever you pass it to is just lucky that nobody comes out of nowhere and knocks him off.". He disagrees and says that despite the fact that he hasn't played it in weeks and has never even played it in the top bracket that he understands it perfectly and that I'm stupid if I think there's any skill involved. I told him that he's probably just mad that he's not playing it right and instead of accepting personal responsibility he's blaming it on luck and ragequitting pvp forever to be over dramatic about it. What sayeth the hordes of PVP forum trolls? Is Huttball completely based on luck with little or no skill involved, is it mostly luck and some skill, is it half and half, is it mostly skill and some luck, or is it all skill?

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQ"""""""""" Q" ___ ___________ II__[w] |QQ Train | {======|_|~~~~~~~~~| /oO--000'"`-OO---OO-'

Yeah, basically, once you die, it takes three minutes before you're worth valor again, and like you said, it's most likely Bioware's way to prevent camping and farming by the superior side. Instead, the other side has a chance to regroup. That's why you see people line up on either side of a bridge and wait... Every three minutes the majority of the enemy are going to give valor, but if you keep attacking, you're wasting your time with kills worth nothing.

The new WZ coming in patch 1.2 has been stated to be neutral.

Wait three minutes between attacks. It's kind of stupid, but that's just how it works.

Because my games won't be lost by people leaving en masse and creating a short period of time in which the other team has a massive advantage due to numbers. It'd be much better, actually. I'd rather wait 2-3 extra minutes for queues and always get to play full matches.

These two posts! Sidious literally started a galactic-wide war in which he was the de facto leader of BOTH sides, using it to give himself ultimate power over the entire galaxy, eliminate all of his biggest enemies, and accomplish everything that he believed the galaxy needed. There's not a better villain in any other story in any genre or universe, IMO. Thrawn is a good second best, though. The way he was written just made him ultra cool, and if it wasn't for the way that the rest of the Empire had treated the Noghri in the past, Thrawn probably would have won back the galaxy for the Empire and could have shut the Yuuzhan Vong invasion before it even got started.

Don't forget the Illum daily and weekly... In theory you could get 14 bags the day that you hit level 50.

Way to miss the point of the comparison, which was obviously not meant to be taken literally or as an all-encompassing parallel. It illustrates that good sportsmanship means competing even if the odds are stacked against you, even if it's not an easy victory. It's a matter of people quitting unless they KNOW they're going to win. If there's any question as to whether or not a match is in their hands, they leave. That's what I have a problem with. Not every quitter falls into that sad category, but many do.

The thing is, in order to spam tracers, you have to be stationary. Mercs don't have a whole lot of options while on the move; we have a disadvantage to more mobile classes who can still do pretty good DPS while jumping and running around, avoiding the environment and AOE's. Most of our single target abilities that we can use while moving, i.e. heat seekers and rail shot are on a cooldown timer and require us to spam 5 tracers before being fully effective. Also, Mercs don't have much in the way of interrupts or stuns compared to several other classes. We can't invis and run away like babies, either. So basically, you believe that we should be immobile, lacking in CC and escape techniques, AND be fragile on top of that? Yeah, that sounds fair.

Oh, I know, and that's a good point. It further illustrates that the internet allows people to be b*tches with no consequences. The point is that there OUGHT to be consequences. I even have guildies who quit WZ's as soon as they fall behind, even if guildies such as, oh, myself, are in the same WZ and they don't even care what I think being in the same guild as me and running stuff with me all the time. It's a bad state for PVP to be in. And yes, I called my guildie out in guild chat about it and we had pretty much the same argument, and his response was more or less that he didn't care about anyone trying to PVP for real, he wanted to get his daily done. That's the prevalent attitude right now and it's not right. Hmm... Would you play a football game 6 vs. 11? Nah, probably not. That's not a challenge or a competition, it's pointless. It's not a mere disadvantage, it's a game-breaking change. When multiple people leave at one time, there is a disadvantage because suddenly one team has 3 or 4 fewer players than the other team. Honestly you have to see why that's a big deal. It doesn't matter if the people are full BM or in full greens, 4 people aren't going to be able to defeat a decent team in Huttball with nobody else on their team. The other team gets an easy score while they have the number advantage and by the time people have replaced the initial quitters it has gone from 1-0 to 3-0. Not because the players that left were God's gift to PVP, but because players LEFT. I don't show up to any matches under geared (Check me out on my Merc main listed in my sig). I don't lack any basic concepts of how to play any of the WZ's (I usually lose out on medals and action guarding the lonely side turret in Alderaan because nobody else will stay and prevent an easy ninja, etc.). Your argument is invalid because it lumps everyone into one category, which is stupid. Some people actually want to be carried, but some actually just want to play the damn game. I just want to PVP. I wouldn't go that far... That's extreme, but a punishment IS necessary. I'd just be happy with a 15 minute debuff preventing requeueing, personally. It'd cut out the win seekers from quitting because in less than 15 minutes the match would be over anyway. This. You obviously haven't read many of my posts in this thread, because if you had, you'd have noticed that I have made the distinction between simply quitting an absolutely hopeless game and just quitting as soon as another team scores or does something good. In fact, even in the post that you quoted, I stated that "These self-righteous little whiners who quit every game that they would have to work hard to win don't deserve anything other than a deserter debuff". I specified even in my first post, which you quoted, that I'm talking about the people who quit unless they know they're going to get a faceroll victory. I've reiterated time and time again that I understand if you quit when it's 4-0 with 12 minutes left in Huttball, but I think it's stupid if you quit when it's 1-0 with 7 minutes left in Huttball. The OP was talking about not punishing quitters, but I think that the people that quit EVERY time they fall behind in any sort of way have to be punished. If a few legitimate quitters are forced to reconsider quitting because of a punishment, that's better than forcing all PVP'ers to deal with constant quitting, IMO. I absolutely agree that close matches are worth staying for. Close matches are a million times more fun than blowouts, but unfortunately because so many people quit if it's not an easy win, close matches are very few and far between. For every good, close game I experience, I've experienced 6 or 7 blowout losses and 6 or 7 blowout wins. I hate that. One easy solution to the gearing issue would be to have queues based on valor rank; people valor rank 1-39 could have their own bracket and people valor rank 40+ could be in a seperate bracket. Most people over valor rank 40 are going to be in good PVP gear. It'd fix the people who complain about being grouped with noobs in greens and blues. But it would NOT fix the problem with the people who quit every time they're not sure it's an easy win. Like the OP said, (paraphrasing here) if there's not a 75% chance of winning, quit. Uh, OK, so in other words, if it's not a near certain win, don't play? That's not how it should be. Best post of the thread!

I understand that, but when they people who JUST want valor, gear, and XP ruin the PVP matches for the people who are actually there FOR the PVP matches, it just sucks. You get what you want either way, but whether or not we get what we want is at the mercy of fate and quitters. That's not fair, IMO. If you stay in the match, you still get valor at the end, and one could argue that, depending on your server queue times, you get more valor by staying, and you get commendations, too. That's EVERY finished match, regardless of winning or losing. When you quit, though, you pretty much guarantee a loss for the remaining players, NOT because they need to be carried, but because they can't be vastly outnumbered for a full minute or more. It's far better to leave the game BEFORE it starts, so I at least commend you on that, but not everyone that has a problem with quitters is a 12k health noob. I'm in my 40's in valor rank, with nearly full T2 PVP gear with the gaps filled in with T1. I'm not a great PVP'er by any means, but I am fairly good. I hate quitters because they open the flood gate for the other team to walk all over me. You get valor and commendations for staying. You get nothing for leaving. 1. A lot of people don't leave because of scrubs, they leave the very second that their team falls behind. I've been in matches where we score immediately early on and lead 1-0 for a few minutes, but 8 minutes in if the other team takes a 2-1 leave, 4 people quit. That doesn't make sense. Clearly the game is fairly even and a good competition. 2. Not really, the point is that they play the game. WZ quitters don't play the game at all, they're looking for handouts. 3. Obviously to TRY to win very game, but reality is that you CAN'T win every game. For every game that is won, someone has to lose, too. I understand that a lot of PVE scrubs and clueless noobs want to get their dailies ASAP because that's the only way they're capable of getting decent gear, but for those of us who PVP for the sake of PVP'ing, the dailies aren't much of an issue because we're going to play enough games to get our 3 victories eventually anyway. And if you want to argue that it's a time constraint issue, I LOL at that. I'm a high school English teacher and a coach and I'm in grad school, too. I'm lucky to get an hour or two a day during the week to play TOR. A lot of quitters are unemployed high schoolers or college students who have all the time in the world. The assumption that everyone who is against quitters is bad or needs to be carried is one made only by fools. Congratulations! You're unable to think logically and understand that there is more than one viewpoint on an issue! How did you know I'm not a professional athlete? Are you a Sith in real life, too? OK, so in little league or high school baseball does the other team just walk off the field if they're down 4-0? No, they keep playing! And if you argue that there's a mercy rule if it gets really bad, let me remind you that there are mercy rules in TOR PVP, too. The point was that teams don't just walk off the field when they're losing, they keep playing. I used MLB teams because the disparity of talent between the Brewers and Astros was an easy way to make the illustration.

It depends on your luck and your server. Sometimes I get my daily done in an hour, sometimes it takes three and a half. It just depends on how things are going.