In it's current state, WW is kinda useless. I use to use it like deception used LS (one of my favorite powers in dec). Now that maul has been removed from the madness rotation, WW has become even more useless. But, I've really had to modify some of my gameplay with the way madness is built at the moment..... so, I do see some potential, just not enough to waste two points.

In PVE non boss I use this spike - maul - vs - vs - shock/maul - shock/maul - vs - ls - maul - vs - shock/maul - shock/maul - DC...... repeat you need to watch your duplicity proc constantly so you don't miss a maul... Maul is always first priority if you can pull it off. With the way LS works, you don't want to use it to set up an already proced maul form duplicity. It's still a fun spec. I'm madness, but spent six months as an exclusive deception from launch. Kinda hope they're not finished with madness and add another proc based power (to shock, cough, cough) because I like that spec better. It's nice to see deception pick up some complexity though. It's not as rotation boring as it use to be... Just be prepared for a PVP nerf to screw the spec in PVE..... Operative style

I'm a madness assassin and I use it as an off force cloak power. I usually set it as a "ohh crap" power before I enter combat or if I'm on a real crappy random queue in a FP. Other than that, it kinda sucks. I posted a couple of ideas for madness in another thread on how this power could be more useful. It really needs to have some sort of dual purpose.

I was thinking the same thing. I've come up we a couple of ideas. They can re-introduce shock into our rotation with a raze like proc. This could give us a single target burst type damage dealer and wouldn't have to monkey around our tree. You could actually add it to one of the later powers in the tree....... OR......... add it to our phase walk power; as long as we are within jump range of our plant, this proc will trigger every 10 seconds during combat.... or something. Another thing that they can do to add burst is attach the same proc mech to force lighting. It would be kinda cool to be able to use this power as an assassin. Maybe add an accelerant and damage buff when a force lighting procs. This would look neat and would be yet another single target "burst" if the power accelerates instead of doting..... again they can also tie this to phase walk or something.

I understand you point; however, I believe you're missing mine. DPS has two main roles in a raid: Boss burn or Add burn (aoe). The problem with the way madness works, is that it takes time for the dots to really kick in. You have one MAJOR AOE damage dealer but the rest is tab -> dot. Your other AOE is lacerate which kinda blows on raids and is only useful on solo trash mobs. This wasn't an issue in "pre-2.0" because you were a boss burner and would ramp up dots with a peppering of maul and assassinate. I see what they're trying to do with madness, but the idea doesn't work with mele hybrid specs. We'll see if the worry is validated in a couple of weeks, but if Deception becomes more raid viable than Madness, there's a HUGE problem. I can roll both but I'd rather play madness, even though it's lost a lot of it's martial gameplay.

I read that article and was a tad underwhelmed with the devs explanation of the madness class mechanics. He had a point with assassinate (I left that skill out of my "theory" figures); however, there will still be a force issue and I'm not buying the whole - dps loss in the first 70% will be made up in the last 30%. My overall complaint is that Madness has lost it's single target dps for multi target. This gimps Madness twice on raids as it will take time to dps down adds, which doesn't make raid members happy, and we lose our single target "ramp up and ROLL" dps. All I have to say is Madness OR Deception BETTER be raid viable or I'm going to put the game down. Too many hours at work to come home and spend an hour frustrated with a gimped class. Is it too much to ask to just get us to average? It's not like Assassins are asking to be dps God's (caugh, mara, cough).

The simple way to fix the dps of this spec without too much mechanic effort (on the dev side) is have lighting burns apply to thrash. This will help keep force up longer, add damage to thrash, and enhance dps: little more burst, superior sustainability. This will become a very easy pve spec but will have to try harder in pvp. I would rather have maul back but it's not going to happen.

I've been thinking about simple fixes to Madness I believe one of the following would go a long way to fixing the class issue. Option 1) place duplicity back in it's original location and crate a condition that you need to have Lightning charge or Surging Charge to proc it. Option 2) (and the option I believe should be tried first) Change lambaste to proc lighting burns on Thrash. If that gives madness too much dps.... re-balance to proc on saber strike. Both options would return the martial aspect to the class. The duplicity option would be my favored option because it forces players to be more skilled; however, with the way 2.0 is supposed to change things, option two should satisfy players while allowing devs to feel like they made significant changes.

But Madness still sucks

Well, pts adjustments have come out and nothing to help Madness DPS. Uggggh:mad:

Well, unfortunately, 1.4 actually LEVELED the playing field for assassins. Players before 1.4 that were use to a class that kinda under performed, started to have an advantage because they didn't get lazy and rely on the superior qualities of their class to compete. Don't forget, you see a lot of the same classes in PVP for a reason. Lazy players want lazy fixes (nerfs/buffs anything that favors them). They will also be the first to use the phrase (L2P). However, with the aforementioned stated, I don't think any of the assassins (or any of the overly well performing classes.. cough, cough) will make it to live in their current PTS state. When reviewing the top talents of each assassin tree, I noticed that there are skills that can be tweaked here and there to create parity with other dps/tank specs. Madness for instance, could just have a hard boost to DoTs and their problem is fixed. Maybe a small amount of force regeneration from deathmarks would help too; however, with the removal of unearthed knowledge and the use for shock.... we'll see. Deception has their assassinate boost at the end of their tree and any modification they want to do with discharge to bring them back in line. Darkness can have their DC live recovery boosted to assist them in the tanking department.... However, this isn't so great when getting mobbed by 4 enemies at once. We'll see.... But all the players feeling good about their class on PTS better be prepared that things may change in a south direction. We will see.

This has been my fear all along. After the whole operative thing at launch, it seems that assassins have been in the PVP communities sights. My biggest fear is I won't have a class to raid with since my Madness Sin is my main and the class I like playing most. However, with all that has been written, I believe the changes to Madness and Deception only need to be minor to bring things back in line.........OR........ review the other classes and bring them down to our level...... pick your poison.

So, I did a little "field" testing today. (finally got my character to transfer). Couple of things I noticed while fighting section x heroic 2 boss. First, force does regenerate faster (unassisted by deathmark) overall; however, deathmark force regen allowed me to keep my force up and out of saber strike for almost the whole fight when running shockless. Second, that 15% damage buff does show in the parce(sp) numbers and in the last part of the fight. Now, how this compares to other dps classes I have yet to test. The removal of duplicity (by skill tree effect) had hurt. If you could get duplicity at a decent cost, that may solve many of the madness force issues; as it would be a low cost skill to add to the rotation. But this does not address my main concern with the assassin spec period. Are assassins on pare with other (Mara's in particular) in raids. This is my biggest issue as it appears that this may not be the case. I have more work to do with level 55's.

Dude, no other class thread is as gloomy as this one..... and the Mara's are only discussing some of the ticky tack stuff. They flat out crushed the two dps trees and smashed the tank. I honestly, don't know WHAT they were thinking when the decided to destroy assassins..... Maybe they just want to kill the class period. It's been like this since day one. When 1.4 hit, it must have been a black day for bioware devs; realizing they made assassin dps viable again. Oh well.

I don't know what the devs were thinking with the entire assassin spec. They've dumbed down madness (and lowered it's dps) They've brought deception back to pre 1.4 (dropped its burst without giving more sustained dps) At this point, might as well roll mara's and just completely trash the non tanking assassin specs. Mara's have always done more dps and been less difficult to play. I just don't get what the developers are trying to do. This honestly, may end up the walking away point for me...... I don't know.....

The only hope is bioware is reading this feedback and moves madness back to where it was. I love how they chose to tone down madness and deception while tune up the Mara's. Makes absolutely NO sense.

Ya, I'm torn on the skill. I use it on dailies too. The sad thing is, the CD is way out of line for the power, making absolute toolbar garbage at high levels. It's great move on low levels that you don't want to consume force. But than again, at geared 50, saber strike dose the job fine. They really need to figure out how to review this power. Removing tumult is flat out lazy.

I've been very concerned about this issue (calc mind especially); however, I'm kinda wondering about that additional 15% from bloodletting after you knock an enemy down to 30%. If you dps on a dummy is 2075, and we increase that dps by 15% (I know, the hard increase is inappropriate) you would theoretically get 2386. Which should bring overall fight dps to 2168. Now, lets look at overall (OPS Gen, OPS Boss, PVP) OPS Gen (and PVP) if you took lambaste and were able to apply it to adds (or grouped players) with DF, you will do major dps. If you have Cal Mind, you would never run out of force. On top of everything else, you wouldn't need to use lightning charge and would be able to have raze proc on every 8. OPS Boss - this is kinda a kick in the teeth as you will not be able to really do damage until the last 30% of the fight. This is an issue as ops groups are picky about teammates. Madness may be seen in the same light as Deception (why I speced out of it a while ago.) I would love it if bioware could FIX my char transfer to field test the changes on champions and OPS bosses.

So, since I'm unable to copy my main to the PTS (Thanks Bioware) can someone let me know the following: With the changes to deception- Is there still a problem with keeping force up over longer battles? Is there still a problem with maul not being actionable from time to time when you're behind target? With the changes to madness- Is it still worth waiting to consume raze until DF is off cooldown? How bad is it to keep force up?

I hope the changes to deception allow the class to do more sustained DPS; even if it comes at the expense of some burst. I had to switch to Madness because the increased amount of DPS after the first to second rotation was too high to ignore. Plus, I play madness fairly well. To the PTS to test things out.

Get the supreme inquisitor robe and hide your head slot. Problem solved.

For me it's a total bind. I prefer Madness play style in PVE due to the awesome DPS you can get on boss fights. It's also fun to watch bosses melt half way through the fight. Monitoring dots isn't that hard as long as you can track your raze proc. If you can learn how to tie your dot(s) timing to your raze proc, keeping your dots applied isn't a problem and you are able to use shock more strategically. In PVP, Deception has too much going for it. You have 3 Dark embrace cycles available making you very tough and allowing you to be less concerned with force consumption. You have a better stealth. Burst DPS is totally insane "when geared and done correctly". Deception is a tad more boring to play and lets face it, Maul is kinda buggy, sooooooo, if you are not able to plant it in time, your DPS takes a hit. In PVE raids and overall questing, this kinda sucks and makes me less inclined to play the spec; even though I can play it well.

Mele Caster that relies on DoT's. Not very good in PVP unless you are supported well and good at remaining "anonymous" Great on single target PVE and does well on multiple target questing if you know what you're doing. Good if you know how to plan your fight and monitor (in your head) DoTs; very bad if you don't.

I found him kinda good at both tanking and DPS but not great. Ashara was a better dps'er and Khem is a better tank. If you're rolling a healer, I think Xalek makes more sense.

Does anyone know which is more useful. I have the DGR of BA and DGR of ET for may sith assassin. I'm wondering if I should equip both DG relics or equip DGR of BA and my Matrix cube Thoughts?