Not at all Tumpai. 1.7 million people trying it out for a few months is great. I just hope they retain this number, but even if it sank to a million, or 700k, they'd still be in the green zone by a lot.

Superb post OP. Rational, non ragey, non complainey. Just pointing out how you feel, and to be honest it's the truth. People will come here and tell you ---> Door's that way. They're very insecure. Don't let them dissuade you. Speak your mind, and speak it clearly as you have. I feel the exact same way you do about every point you made. The games potential was squandered. They outright refused to break the mold of the industry standard in favor of more money. When innovation takes a back seat to profit, everyone suffers for it. The best analogy I can make is you receive a delicious Marie Callender's pot pie. It looks, and smells delicious. The crust is flakey and moist. But the second your fork breaks through the crust? You find nothing bit bland processed filling. It's just sad. With the budget they had, the time they had, and the information available - they simply did the bare minimum beyond anything but Story, which is what Bioware does best. It's also why I won't blame BW for the game - Somehow, I just get the feeling the MMO part of this MMO, isn't their fault.

Honestly, if this was a Mass Effect MMO, I would have bought it just like I did for it being Star Wars. However I judge an MMO by much more than it's IP. WOTLK kept me because I loved the story of Arthas/Gameplay was good and I have a long standing relationship with the Undead in MMO's. I've unsubbed from SWTOR for the simple fact that, if it wasn't Star Wars or Mass Effect? It wouldn't have even held me a month the way the game plays and is made beyond the primary story arc.

Space missions = Star fox rail shooter (Daily quest) Companions that gather = Good. Class Specific Story lines = Good. Space ship = Travel step with little purpose. Flashpoints that have objectives = Loot, dungeons also have loot. Huttball = Amazing. Sex with NPC's = Are you a teenager? Modifications to same gear = Appearance slot would be better. Same gear to 50 = Same as above. Rewards for socializing on a mission = Selecting 1 of 3 options that others pick from, not a social activity. Speeders = Mounts. Ability to quick travel to discovered location = Nice, better than the standard hearth to current bind. Lightsabers = Swords that glow, not Lightsabers by virtue of the way they strike enemies. Legacy system = Pointless until features are released, could be great, could be shallow. Companions that heal/tank/dps = Various forms of hunter pets for everyone (Good.) LS/DS choices = trivial but for gear granted. Story ends up the same, everyone is a Darth, everyone is a Jedi Master, unable to lose Great Hunt. Codex System = Lore reader (Not bad.) So, yeah.

To DBM. But, Flashpoint finder wouldn't hurt on servers with low pop.

Bingo.

Well. You can play 4-5 hours and just sit around. That's pretty casual. I'd say there's very varying degrees of casual no one person can define. Which is okay! It really is. It just doesn't address the fundamental flaws in the current system. SWTOR is a pretty good game. Anyone who loves it, should love it until they don't. There's no other way to look at it. People who think logically and critically can look at what's given to them and evaluate it reasonably. I've done that, and it's just underwhelming to me. Others are easier to please. I'll give GW2 a shot, it might be what I want, who knows! Check it out, you may like what you see too.

The point is games are not supposed to just repeat what's been done before, just like many other things, they are supposed to advance. That's the point. SWTOR's story is great from 1-49. They'll add more, yes. This is fantastic. But they chose to give us what's been done for almost a decade instead of trying to figure out how to change it, make it better. More of the same. Why is this ok?

In truth there really is no definition other than you don't hard core it to max level and grind non stop for the best gear I guess? Those players can't be supported by any system really. But that isn't the issue here really. The issue is that the game is really thin beyond the story. People who say "Story is Biowares thing!" Yes, it is. In single player games. This is an MMO, an entirely different beast. They did great on what they always do. The MMO aspect? I'd wonder if the MMO aspect wasn't done by the mythic team they consumed.

Casual play isn't 4-5 hours a night? Casual play is your 1-2 hours a night? I'd say our definitions vary but in truth Casual is probably pretty much anyone who doesn't take the game as more than a hobby. So your 1-2 hours casual may vary from others. But you can still tell me playing for 1-2 hours a night is okay for a 200 Mil product? Not getting it at all. It should be able to keep both style of players entertained, there is really no excuse. If you want to excuse them, you can. I won't. Most people who expect things to be made properly won't. Biowares demographic is fans of RPG's with Dialogue choices. I am in that demographic. As soon as they breached into MMO's they got an Entirely new set of players, ones they are not able to support despite the huge cost of the game. Why should I not expect them to do their research before hand? You expected exactly what you got from SWTOR which was terribly unbalanced and buggy PVP/PVE with Biowares awesome A+ RPG elements? Are you just complacent with how things go, and not expect people to improve? You would never expect an employee to not improve if they are under-performing, especially if they have a wealth of knowledge as to what makes an employee better. You don't just accept that. Anyway, I'm really not here to argue. I'm probably posting badly because of the liquor and it's how I really feel but would be much more tactful. I want SWTOR to do well, but a company should consider all of it's customers. Anything else is simply wrong. Also, for the people who mislead me and others? Check the Dev videos on Youtube, you'll find them there.

The question is, what were YOU expecting? Were you expecting a 200 million dollar drab end game clone of the existing standard? If you were, you should probably up your standards Just a smidgen. If someone serves you an Awesome appetizer, and then a bland main course at a restaurant, you send it back. As a professional Chef, I don't get away with sending some parts of a meal to a table undercooked, and some parts perfectly cooked. It gets sent back and I hear about it.

We compare because we expect more from a company who blew such a monolithic amount of money on a game. If you don't I can't help you really I can't. It's like spending 60 grand on a car, and getting no air conditioning. That analogy is that it lacks very basic quality of life features. Features that have been in the MMO world for years. They chose not to include them - why? No clue, ask Bioware. Just because YOU play 1-2 hours a night doesn't mean everyone does. If they aimed this product AT players who play that little? They should have said so. Not "Our PVP will blow your mind. Eternity Vault will be a big challenge." They should have said. "If you play 1-2 hours a day, you'll love our 200 million dollar game." People would have said they were nuts. Casual MMO players are classified as people who play 4-5 hours a day, and don't strive to raid or PVP for top end gear in a realistic term. If you play for 1-2 hours a night, you're beyond casual. You're a person with a mild hobby that is SWTOR. If you can Sit there and say "This game is okay for a person who treats it as a Mild Hobby", you have to see the fault in that. It doesn't even come down to the fact that the PVP and PVE are considered substandard. It comes down to the fact that the game cost SO much money, and they gave us Voice overs for every NPC. That's new, no MMO has done that before but we have voice acting in other games. Beyond that? There is Nothing worth that gigantic price tag. People talk about WoW because it has thoes quality of life conveniences that this game needs, and has been out for years. They talk about GW2 because it's really trying to change the genre and break the cycle of Grind loot to kill boss to grind more loot to kill next boss. Grind pvp to get better gear to grind more pvp to get better gear to grind more pvp. The story is an Awesome aspect, A+ for that for this game. The PVP/PVE, you know, the MMO part? C- at best. Why do I say that? Because I've been playing MMO's since EQ1. I've experienced them all, I know what's available, and what can be done, and what just Isn't done here. /shrug Can't give sight to the blind I guess.

Would be so much nicer if a developing company didn't just push off mediocre products instead of good ones wouldn't it?

More like high up on Star Wars + the fact that they just don't want to admit the game is teeth grindingly meh. Don't take much that I say with a lot of salt or whatever. Vodka talks, makes me be much less forgiving than I am.

I may be drunk, but you're preaching to the choir. You're entirely right. People really wanted this game to be just so awesome. But it isn't. I did too. Oh well. It's just the way it is, no way to fix it. GW2 here we go.

HAH! That isn't what he meant. Guild battles would be pretty cool if you could organize them in structured matches like, in Warzones of the guild leaders choosing. Like a Guild V Guild Huttball, or smugglers den. That would be so cool.

Probably. However, they're trying something different at least with all aspects of their game. Something is bound to go wrong. But they're trying. Some things have no excuse.

Welcome to hero engine. Also here - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=178454 This thread has a lot of tips that can really jazz it up, performance wise I don't know but maybe you'll find something there, it's the best I can do for you.

This is a good post. Very happy for you OP, I love when people get re-energized into this genre. It's been part of my blood since I was 12 years old.

The dungeons start at level 35, and there is one every 10 levels after to 80, at which there are 3 more. These dungeons feature two modes, story and exploration. The dungeons themselves will feature dynamic events that change. I don't know everything about them, but they did say the bosses will have different abilities, depending on what ideration of them you get. As well as in exploration mode, the dungeon will change it's objectives every time you do it. There is talk of additional difficulty modes as well. So no, your comparison is incorrect. Dungeons are 5 man, only five man, and never more than five man. They are there to see story and represent a challenge. Gear comes from them, but it's not the point of them. GW2 is not about gear.

They spent that money on the Voice Acting. There has been voice acting in games for a long time now. Even in MMO's. Simply never fully voice acted, and this is perhaps the greatest strength of SWTOR, it truly does play for an awesome leveling experience with this addition, and it's one we'll see in MMO's in the future, but probably never to this extent again as it costs an apparent monolithic amount of money. Yes, they did brag how awesome their end game was going to be, watch the dev videos on you tube. They'll tell you all about how awesome EV is, and how mind blowing Illum will be, and how incredible PVP will be. Not exactly what came out. If they want to crack in on WoW's population, they need a good end game. It's utter foolishness to presume otherwise. You can't drop a product to challenge one that's been around for years, and say "In a few years, ours will be better." Well, in a few years that's great. People really enjoy SWTOR for the leveling, and they will retain these players. But there are a lot of us who simply expected more out of the time and money put into this project. Not just 1-49 and all the cut-scenes. It's not overboard to ask for an all around good game.

1. So far of the Legacy system we've seen that it forces you to have one last name among all your characters. That and you'll be able to play a Miraluka Sith. Neat. 2. Crafting and selling is a good point, you can make stuff for your Miraluka Sith, or some other low to mid level players, but don't charge much for it because well, they have speeders to buy. I give away what I craft because credits are pointless. 3. It's been documented many times that Hard Modes are pretty dang easy and just come down to running the 5 that offer pieces of gear every day, and then that's it. Dailies take little time as well. In short, it's a grindy time sink. Hard mode raids, are also well documented as a cakewalk. 4. Guilds are great to have, they're one of the big saving graces for SWTOR, without the friendship of your guildmates I think that the game would feel even more empty than it already can. 5. Lots.

Actually. None of those games had the absolutely staggering budget that this game had. When you say "millions of dollars in profit." You can also say "SWTOR had millions more in development costs. In the HUNDREDS of Millions more." Still, we wind up at the problem that what is presented to us beyond the story is not great. It can be fixed, but it shouldn't have to be fixed. The content would be acceptable if it was put together well, and presented to us without the bugs and major issues that reflect it being produced as if it had the budget of a game from seven years ago, when it launched. Seven years ago. I played all the games listed on your list. It took considerably longer than a month to hit the level cap, and when you did, it felt like an accomplishment in and of itself. It wasn't this quick few weeks of casual play that caps you in SWTOR, and being expected to roll classes you're not interested in, or doing stories you don't find compelling is a lame excuse for a bad decision. I'm sure a lot of players who are leaving would be willing to stay and support Bioware, if they had not been given Two Hundred Million dollars to produce SWTOR with in the 1st place. They gave us an A+ single player RPG, like expected. But delivered a very samey C- WoW Clone PVE experience. How is that okay?

No one is saying what you're saying they're saying.

You're fundamentally wrong on a few of your points. You can be in multipule guilds at once, for example. You simply choose which one you want to champion and earn rewards. GW2 has voice acting as well for many of it's main story quests, and the quests you pick up to start say an arena event, are a blurb of information - the entire game is designed about getting you to be Playing the game, and not watching it, or grinding. The LFG system is un-needed, as the only thing you need focused groups for are the Dungeons themselves. Everyone is awarded equal loot/exp for a kill if they contribute to, including world boss kills and normal kills out in the world. Max level is no different than low levels, other than you look cooler, and the story progresses. When you move between zones downward, you are always the top level for that zone, if you're 80, entering a 20 zone, you're 20. The mobs will never be below you. There's lots more info out there, check it out. You may like it!