Ideally and theoretically I agree with you, but I don't know how feasible what you're saying is. At least in my opinion these two PvP philosophies are pretty much at odds, and I think you see lots of board warrioring in every game that features PvP as a result. I don't think that the same types of PvP enjoy world PvP with objectives/goals and instanced warzones which reward PvP gear to reduce other's ability to compete. I think that these are on some level or another fundamentally different reasons to play. Certainly they can both be appeased to some degree, but likely that suggests that neither group will be happy with the resulting system. You can see from some of the posts in this thread that some people seriously see any difference in gear as crippling and holding them back. All those complaining about the War Hero grind, seem pretty vehement in the belief that without WH gear they just flat aren't competitive. I have not 1 piece of War Hero gear yet, I only really PvP with one character and yet its still not a big deal to me at all that others have better gear. I enjoy PvPing for the sake of PvPing so long as the ground is somewhat even, for others the "inequality" in SWTOR is too much to deal with. You're probably right that a middle ground is achievable, but to date I've not seen it in any game despite the constant calls of the new PvP messiah (is it GW2, TERA, Diablo III or something else this week?). Games have strengths and flaws, I think that of course they should improve but we should also recognize them on some level for what they are. PvP in SWTOR is a gear grind, just like WoW, I would love to see it develop into more, but that is all we have atm.

You'll get no argument from me on that point. I developed my love for PvP playing games where PvP actually mattered, ever since WoW I've seen the same tired crappy ideas re-hashed in game after game, though most that I've tried have at least attempted ideas like territory capturing etc. I just think it's unreasonable to expect too much even in the long-term from SWTOR PvP. The most I hope for atm is something approaching class balance (1.2 is way worse than earlier versions here) and some neat support systems like a ladder etc. Anything more is just as likely to turn people off and cause more forum rage as it is to be appreciated. One of the things that really exticed me about TERA and the distant Game of Thrones game was the focus on new ideas like political systems. Generally I think that when people think PvP all that springs to mind is wtfpwning other people, griefing, etc, but in the games I used to play the PvP community was about the strongest community in the game. Regularly this group scheduled events (yes, player hosted events with no systems to back them up) developed alliances, declared wars and so on. If anything I'd say that the WoW approach to PvP (instanced and warzone-centric) is one of those things that perpetuates the crappy gear=all approach people seem to have. SWTOR really isn't a "PvP game" I doubt that people really want meaningful PvP here rather than just new ways to grind out gear and wave epeen. Open World PvP through Ilum was a disaster, in part because of terrible design, but also in part because of a pretty piss-poor PvP community. People do things like kill trading when they see equipment as the end all/be all goal of PvP, no amount of quality systems will get those sorts of people to enjoy a PvP game for the sake of PvPing. TLDR: Yes, obviously PvP should be about more than gear, but that's what we can expect in the near future and sadly what most people seem to want.

A) I don't see the two as mutually exclusive, though personally I don't care about gear some people do and there's no reason not to let them have their goals as well so long as the difference between the tiers is minimal. B) I think it will be quite a while before we see the latter, unless by "meaningful, exciting, competitive PvP" you mean rated warzones. I don't see warzones (even rated ones, which would be a huge step in the right direction) as much more than e-sporting. Meaningful PvP will take a ton of effort to develop in this game (given the limitations of two factions and limited concepts of player control over territories). Thus I'm happy with the gear grind and fun so long as better options aren't available.

A) I liked the healing system in AoC, generally HoTs seem better design-wise to me than do instant/burst heals. But by the same logic I prefer steady DPS design rather than burst DPS. B) SWTOR healers are easy to deal with, at the moment if you're having problems with anyone other than an Operative you're either playing a Commando/Mercenary (only class in the game without an interrupt) or have some serious competence issues. C) Invulnerability bubbles are dumb and I wish developers would stop including them in games with PvP.

As a pretty casual player at this point (3-5 games a night, 2-3 times a week) I have no problem with the War Hero grind. Going forward I'd be comfortable with this sort of pace for future T3 PvP gear. Basically at the moment T1 is pretty much 0 investment (just money) T2 is a week or two of dailies and T3 takes quite a while. So long as the gap between T2 and T3 isn't huge that's fine by me. It leaves the grinders something to work toward without offering a massive difference in power via their achievement.

One thing I appreciated in OP's commentary was the comparison to AoC. I definitely loved that game and wanted it to succeed but time and time again I found myself wondering "*** are these developers trying to do?" The 1.2 patch left me in the same exact boat, low TTK leads imo to crappy MMO-PvP and overall there is no way that it wasn't clear to those implementing changes that the changes made would decrease time to kill. Along the same lines, yes there undoubtedly were balance problems pre 1.2 but what we ended up with post 1.2 is a hot mess, it's puzzling that anyone thought this trend was appropriate. It would be great to hear some feedback from someone at Bioware regarding generally *** happened with 1.2. I have no intention of quitting any time soon, I have next to 0 interest in DIII, TERA or GW2. I'd just like to see things get better in SWTOR.

I bought this argument for months until I tried playing a Marauder. The thing people mistake for "complication" is something many other classes are missing, better dubbed "options". Once you pass from semi-competent to comfortable you realize that your ability to murdalize as a Marauder is really limited to a small subset of your powers, the rest of the stuff is pure icing. Much like you on your Sorceror, when I play my Commando I realize I have way fewer buttons to push to contribute to a fight. I don't mistake this for the class being "easier" though. Totally true, but pre-mades change everything, particularly pre-mades developed specifically to deal with an abundance of certain classes. Back when people complained about tracer missile spammers incessantly, it didn't take a well developed pre-made to deal with them, all it took was a player who understood how to stop turret classes. I suspect you're correct as far as the role of melee in competitives, but on my server atm one of the cute things you see in pre-mades is a team of 4 consisting of nothing but Warriors or Knights and the rest are filler. The pre-mades are an utter wrecking ball, yes they do better if one of their random PUGers is a healer, but trust me, they do plenty well enough without them.

Just going to note my dissent on this note. Melee is easier in SWTOR than any game I've played to date. Once you get to a semi-basic level of comfort with your class people really can't escape once you're focused on them. Some people just don't adapt well to melee play (I think this is a problem for many in SWTOR since light sabers win people over via "cool factor"). Compared to games like Age of Conan (why on earth would melee be so rough in a game about Conan) or even WoW I've found melee in SWTOR to be a breeze.

This is worth repeating. Sometimes I wonder about people's past experiences based on PvP moaning on the SWTOR boards. I've been through a sea of games over the years, crowd control always sucks but it's basically part of playing an MMO with the standard defined "roles". I'm definitely not the biggest fan of the resolve system but I don't think that's the problem people are running into so much as just the volume of CC people have access to. My only issue with resolve is the frequency of snares and roots, SWTOR is one of the harshest games I've played for a dedicated ranged character as of 1.2) itseems pretty much a waste of time. Between snares, roots, stun/mez/pull and interrupts its very possible to spend an extended amount of time (like worse than vanilla WoW with stunlocks) unable to do much of anything. My Guardian on the other hand is basically a rolling ball of murder.

"Goes PvP" what does that even mean? Why on earth is it always one play-style or another that has to be catered to? I don't understand why a game supporting the PvP crowd should make it impossible to enjoy for a PvE player.

Pretty sure they're cumulative, they just don't count anything before 1.2. Basically every win and kill (but not deaths or losses... no one want's to think about their failures) will be recorded from now on.

Step 1: Complain about healers demanding a healer nerf Step 2: Complain about tanks demanding a tank nerf Step 3: Profit I never cease to be amazed at the stuff some players feel comfortable complaining about in PvP. Playing DPS in this game is as easy as in any other game, when my Combat Medic was nerfed into the dirt I swapped over to Gunnery and went right back to murdalizing (despite the fact that this spec is trash when you play against anyone paying attention). Yes, characters wielding glow-sticks currently pwn all, but seriously I am impressed that anyone can see Juggernauts as more of a problem than Marauders.

Loved my Commando Combat Medic pre-1.2, it took some real getting used to post 1.2 and eventually I just switched to Gunnery. Yes Gunnery Commandos/Arsenal Mercenaries are atrociously squishy but as the current name of the game in 1.2 PvP is "Murderball" there's not much point in speccing heals atm (in my opinion). I still manage to have some fun on my Commando, but my Guardian is definitely miles more enjoyable (Master Strike = Roflstomp).

First and foremost I love PvP, it's my preferred activity in any MMO. Now, that being said, I've always been a little confused about this issue of people raging out about SWTOR's PvP. I mean I never read anything suggesting that PvP was a pillar of SWTOR's gameplay pre-release nor got even the slightest feeling that developers considered it as important as the PvE "story-telling" part of the game. I remember very clearly back when PvP was heralded as a central building block of WoW's design (there was essentially 0 PvP support at release) so I understood people being really ticked about that (myself included) but it definitely seems that people are raging about something that was never advertised about SWTOR. If anything I've been pretty impressed by their devotion to fixing PvP, though I do seriously wonder who is determining what "fixes" should be made as some of the decisions so far have seemed piss-poor.

Though I personally think this zone is well designed and really interesting, I have to admit I often will just leave when I log-in to a Huttball match. On one hand it is great how team oriented the game is, on the other class balance in Huttball is a hot mess.

This is a good suggestion imo, I pretty much always hide my shoulder pads in any game that allows it. One of the things I've always loved about LOTRO is their approach to customizing your character's appearance. Shoulder pads are definitely #2 behind crappy helmets for things that are good to hide.

I'm a PvPer, I love this game... maybe stop catering to the end-game obsessed raid grinding crowd? As a side note, I'm still having plenty of fun with PvP at 50, SWTOR's forumites are absurdly dramatic even by the MMO status quo.

Just to be clear I don't really disagree with you, but what you're arguing/suggesting is pretty much Candyland. What we have been handed is not the game you've envisioned, stats aren't capped at a reasonable amount and players are expected to grind through one level of gear after another. This is the game we are playing, is it ideal? Maybe, maybe not. We aren't playing an oldschool sandbox game, in games like SWTOR gear is the driving force of character progression. Would I prefer to see a system similar to the one you've presented... of course... Even among modern themepark MMOs some have tried that sort of system only to convert away from it. LotRO once had a really interesting and flexible gear system where there really weren't set in stone "best in slot" items. The gear cap was relatively easy to hit so people mixed and matched their gear to do whatever specific thing they thought was of value. All of this was removed when they dropped stat caps and the game essentially turned into one more gear grind. This is unfortunately the trend, and in part that trend is fueled by the ridiculous demands of the current MMO player. Side note: LoTRO now has expertise, its almost an expected result when a game switches to the gear grind model. When people demand "more" end game they're not demanding more diverse and flat "options", they are demanding progression, new tiers that make the old tier irrelevant and so on. This makes it frankly a nightmare to balance the PvP game while continuing to offer "progression" in the PvE game. TLDR: I like the idea you presented, however we're not going to get that. I'd rather the expertise system than a gear grind without PvE/PvP gear being separated. I'd love the game you're imagining, but we aren't playing that game.

Sadly I'm going to go with "It is needed" All those claiming expertise is just for WoW kiddies or some similarly inane catch phrase, keep in mind that we're totally playing a WoW flavored gear grind of a game. Ultimately this is the reason expertise is needed in SWTOR, all new content is going to mean new gear, new gear is our only carrot to chase and having PvE gear and PvP gear separate makes the game easier to balance in PvP without having to damage people's PvE play. I'd love to see them get rid of expertise as I personally feel the system is lame and dumb, but doing so imo would require much more than a few minor system changes. It'd require a change in the basic design concepts of the game. The legacy of tiered gear, raids and "end game" is what makes stats like expertise necessary.

WH gear is not a massive enough difference in stats to worry about anyway, at the moment it provides a carrot for those who need a gear based "reason" to continue PvPing. It is definitely a grindy set to earn, but only if you care about it enough to try to grind it out. Have fun, PvP and eventually you'll find yourself with more pieces than you expected. My only real question regarding WH gear is if we'll now see a new set when rateds (eventually) come out. There's also this point^ Basically some people have way more free time than others, SWTOR really doesn't seem like the appropriate game for these sorts of folks.

I'd go with strategy, it would be different if we were talking about recruit gear but as far as I understand Battlemaster to War Hero is about the same as Champion to Battlemaster used to be. Contrary to many forum complaints a competent player in Champion gear could wtfpwn someone less competent in BM pre 1.2. Gear matters a ton in SWTOR but people often make it out to be more than it is. At the same time however, if we're just talking individual warzone strategy rather than a larger problem then it's pretty irrelevant also. So long as someone can listen to directions in vent and generally knows how to play their character their strategic weaknesses aren't the end of the world. This is one of those things everyone who is into PVP realizes eventually. For all the board-warrioring about "bads" or e-peen stroking and posturing about how some people just need to learn to play, there are few things more valuable in a PvP team than teammates who are willing to cooperate. A WZ hero who spends his whole time degrading teammates after he gets pwnt is imo a crappier addition to a team than a fresh newbie who is willing to take direction.

Even if the effect isn't mindblowingly massive, its a pretty nice change for those leveling up alts without impacting end game PvE or PVP.

Cool, always nice to learn something useful on the forums, thanks.

Question: does the objective scoring actually work now? It definitely seems much more accurate for contribution toward victory but I remember it being pretty broken before.

I'd argue this point really, healing isn't particularly difficult in this game, nor (obviously) is DPS. Coordinating well and using effective strategies is really the only challenge in MMO PvP. I'm sure you're pretty good at your healing job, but really unless people notice it doesn't matter how good at your job you are. Since I've switched to DPS I do vote for a healer when I see that their heals really helped the team (or me) out of some tight spots, just like I do with tanks I notice pro-actively protecting people or DPS focusing the right targets. But to be frank its really easy to not notice how much your teammates are contributing. Also post 1.2 I've won plenty of matches with 0 healers, and I personally dread seeing 4 marauders way more than 4 healers (regardless of the class). Mostly my MVP vote goes to someone who coordinated our efforts though (often this means the OPS channel loud-mouth) since coordination more than any level of individual performance is what leads to victory. One thing I never do is vote by the numbers, you're already getting rewarded for your top DPS or top HPS.