Why is this claimed to be not a real mmo?

[paradoxia]

If you are so mad about this not being an MMO then why are you playing the game? If you are going to complain about it not being EXACTLY what you want it to be then stop paying for the subscription and go back to WoW.

[Shoxc]

Because of course Bioware couldn't be trying to come up with their version of the MMO right? Just because it was not designed like how it is in WoW does not mean it was a last min design decision.

 

Actually yes it does, you don't re invent the wheel. Especially when you're trying to compete with wheels already out in the current finite marketplace.

 

Do you seriously think that these design decisions, are an attempt by Bioware to create their own brand of MMO's? That is some hardcore banboism.

[jakarai]

Count how many times you have interacted with other people. For the vast majority of players, it is very few.

 

Quests are mostly solo, each planet has a few heroic quests lots of people skip and some classes can even solo those. Plus some of the quests involve instances which you cannot access unless you are on those quests.

 

Every area has multiple shards so while there might actually be a couple of hundred people on your planet, you will likely never see more than 6.

 

Crafting is all solo and the stuff you make is really not needed by anyone as players can just get better items by leveling up a couple of levels or quest rewards.

 

Space is all solo and takes you out of the game world totally. There is no real guild system or housing system, nobody really wants to go on your ship and stand around. There are no chat bubbles and most emotes do not work. The social hubs they thought would be active (fleet, cantina) are total ghost towns.

 

There is really nothing to do other than level up, which is a solo game.

 

Things change a bit once you get to level 50, but that is a pretty long haul just to get to some kind of consistent player interaction via the end game instances.

 

I guess you can PVP if you want, but even that is in an instance.

 

Its a good game, but it's not really a MMO.

 

Sounds to me like the problem is you not teaming up with people not the game itself. EVERY planet I have been on I have teamed up with players to do group quest. I am only on the 3rd planet so for but today I am headed to Nar.

[Dreadwraith]

This is an MMO and only those who still want a game to force other people to play with them think otherwise. It is massive with over 1,000,000 to start and there are always plenty of people to group with, you just have to ask around and find other people who want to group. This is intentional and forces you to actively get to know the people you group with at least to some extent.

 

It isn't 2004 anymore and there is no longer a set definition to MMOs. MMOs are now truely massive and attract huge amounts of players with different play styles. No major MMO will ever again force players to group or be crowded out by other players. You will need to look to niche games that target much smaller sections of the MMO market and spend their money accordingly.

[KahnyaGnorc]

For me, MMORPG does not imply seamless world, it implies a game that is MASSIVE (I.E. lots of different places to go), is MULITIPLAYER (like those groups I'm always in, the people I see running around), and naturally it's ONLINE (since that would be the only way to see other people in my game.)

 

Just a nitpick, MMO is Massively Multiplayer Online. The first "M" is an adverb describing the second "M." (As in, not just more than one player, but a lot more than one player). Your description would be of a Massive Multiplayer Online, which would cover the Elder Scrolls games modded to be two-player games.

 

Also, don't like the sharding early in the game? Even with sharding, it was often hard/impossible to finish bonus quests early in the game due to how many people were hunting the limited spawns (and thus, difficult to level as quickly as the questing assumes). Without sharding, the lines for the named targets of Bonus quest "Final Stages" would be "massively" long.

[Lethality]

There are some who think a game has to adhere to certain gameplay mechanics to be an MMO, when, in fact, the "MMO" part has little to nothing to do with gameplay and is about the delivery mechanism for the game.

 

The three most common misplaced "requirements" for an MMO are, from my experience:

 

1. forced grouping to do anything of note

2. be a sandbox MMO

3. endgame revolving around large-scale raiding

 

Well, to be fair... those are the attributes that defined the genre. It's not a stretch to expect them in whichever MMO you play.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Lethality

[jakarai]

Actually yes it does, you don't re invent the wheel. Especially when you're trying to compete with wheels already out in the current finite marketplace.

 

Do you seriously think that these design decisions, are an attempt by Bioware to create their own brand of MMO's? That is some hardcore banboism.

 

Looking at chat and other forums it seems to be working. I see alot of people loving this game right now some even claiming it is better then WoW. "You don't re invent the wheel." By that logic the Wii should have been a failure.

[jakarai]

Actually yes it does, you don't re invent the wheel. Especially when you're trying to compete with wheels already out in the current finite marketplace.

 

Do you seriously think that these design decisions, are an attempt by Bioware to create their own brand of MMO's? That is some hardcore banboism.

 

At first I was thinking the same thing(they were making a single player rpg but decided to turn it into an mmo) but if you look back at all the interviews or developer blogs they have been hinting at this the whole time. This is how they were developing this game from the start and I am really loving this game. The design decisions are genious. The sharded worlds make so much sense. I don't have to fight other players over mobs.

Edited January 1, 2012 by jakarai

[HavenAE]

The single most important reason why people complain that this isn't a MMO is...

 

 

THE PLAYERS

 

 

there is plenty of group content to be played with 2 or more people. the issue with NO ONE WILL GROUP UP FOR IT.

 

You can sit and say Assassin tank LFG for heroics, or Bounty Hunter heals lfg flashpoint, in general chat and you'll get silence.

 

 

That doesn't mean the game isn't an MMO however, it just means most players are anti-social.

 

 

 

Basically what we have is this.

 

 

Player A, "Man this game sucks it's not an MMO, it's a single player game with a chat room."

 

 

Player B "Hey player A I got these 4 group quests that need a full group to be completed, you wanna join up and find some other people to help us?"

 

Player A, "<silence>"

Edited January 1, 2012 by HavenAE

[jakarai]

misquote. Edited January 1, 2012 by jakarai

[gurugeorge]

Love the game, it's another BioWare classic, and my best "BW experience" since Dragon Age: Origins.

 

I wouldn't get bogged down too much in what to call SWTOR. For a lot of the time, it's a very good single-player game, but BioWare have also done enough so that you can legitimately call it a "Massively Multiplayer" game too. People can, and do, interact a lot.

 

IOW it does have those two dimensions, and the great single-player experience does actually enrich the multiplayer experience - I think even to the extent that, for some people, because they start to actually roleplay their characters like they would in a single-player BioWare game, that maybe leads to them taking the roleplay (in a mild sense) of what they do with other people a bit more seriously.

 

And that is actually quite innovative. Not the kind of innovative that some people wanted, perhaps; many would have preferred an innovative sandbox, other people might have preferred more innovation in or improvement on the (by now) tired old DIKU MUD ("themepark") formula of the majority gameplay lineage. But BioWare made what they made, and it's (mostly) very good indeed, and innovative enough in its own way.

 

Longevity-wise, I think there's probably enough intricacy to keep many people occupied for half a year to a year or so, provided BW manage to keep pumping out that ol' endgame content.

 

This will be the second biggest "proper" MMO after WoW, and it will stay that way for a good while, I think.

[Shoxc]

Looking at chat and other forums it seems to be working. I see alot of people loving this game right now some even claiming it is better then WoW. "You don't re invent the wheel." By that logic the Wii should have been a failure.

 

The subjective opinions of a select few is hardly in indicator of how successful an enterprise is. Saying "my cousin and all their friends like it, so it must be good" is a fallacy. Exactly what you did.

 

Only in time, by the sheer number of subscriptions and therefore overall financial success can one deemed to be more "successful" not "better".

 

Do you honestly see this game as being more successful than wow?

 

Guess we'll have to wait and see

Edited January 1, 2012 by Shoxc

[KahnyaGnorc]

For an "MMO" essentially released in 2012, it is missing the most basic modern MMO features.

 

1) UI functionality alone is evidence that this game was designed from the ground up as a single player game.

 

2) AH functionality feels tacked on. Hence the bad search.

 

3) LFG system is completely useless, can't search globally for people who are LFG? This day and age? Really?

 

4) Character / Race customization not even close to any other MMO, another indicator this game was originally intended to be single player.

 

5) No Macros, Hell even FFXI back in 2002 had them. Simple ones like /cast "spell" "target" would go a long way

 

6) No combat log, not important for a single player game, but damn needed in MMO's

 

7) Mods like DPS meters, again indication of single player design.

 

8) Raid frames borked, won't always update correctly, can't see debuffs at all.

 

9) Focus window randomly disappears.

 

10) Massive bugs in Flashpoints, see: chest loot, boss resets, boss invincible. But minor bugs in single player campaign, shows where all the effort in programming went.

 

11) Look at dungeons and raids in every other MMO, they are a part of the world, you travel distances to reach them, they are apart of the landscape and fit the overall theme of the area. Flashpoints in this game, you "teleport" to them from a central hub, teleport back. If that's not an indication that they're tacked on last minute I don't know what is.

 

I could go on, but I don't have all year. Every single point is a clear indication that this game was designed from the ground up as a single player game, and then EA came along and said "hey! MMO's make money, turn it into an MMO".

 

This is what i get from that post:

 

This vehicle doesn't have a cup-holder in this day and age? It can't be a real car!

[Shoxc]

This is what i get from that post:

 

This vehicle doesn't have a cup-holder in this day and age? It can't be a real car!

 

Actually it's more akin to not having a steering wheel, brakes, doors, and an engine.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Shoxc

[Cameirus]

This is what i get from that post:

 

Quote:

This vehicle doesn't have a cup-holder in this day and age? It can't be a real car!

 

 

or a steering wheel, gearstick, wheels, engine, windscreen, or (lol) seats you can sit in!

[KahnyaGnorc]

Well, to be fair... those are the attributes that defined the genre. It's not a stretch to expect them in whichever MMO you play.

 

It is a stretch, however, to label anything lacking those elements as not an MMO, considering they have nothing to do with whether or not the game is "Massively Multiplayer" or "Online."

[jakarai]

The subjective opinions of a select few is hardly in indicator of how successful an enterprise is. Saying "my cousin and all their friends like it, so it must be good" is a fallacy. Exactly what you did.

 

Only in time, by the sheer number of subscriptions and therefore overall financial success can one deemed to be more "successful" not "better".

 

Do you honestly see this game as being more successful than wow?

 

Guess we'll have to wait and see

 

I am not only going by server ques, sales numbers and forum post but by also people I know irl. If that is not an indication of success I don't know what is.

 

Why does it have to be more successful then WoW? The game has only been out for 13 days I have no idea how successful it will be 5 years from now. I doubt any pay to play MMO will ever pull in the numbers WoW had/has but if any game has the potential to do it is SWTOR.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Actually it's more akin to not having a steering wheel, brakes, doors, and an engine.

 

None of which you listed are a requirement for the game to function. They are luxuries. (or you listed bugs, and, of course, there are no "true MMOs" that have ever launched with bugs!)

[Thiussat]

For an "MMO" essentially released in 2012, it is missing the most basic modern MMO features.

 

1) UI functionality alone is evidence that this game was designed from the ground up as a single player game.

 

While I agree the UI needs work, a UI fits nowhere in the definition of an MMO.

 

2) AH functionality feels tacked on. Hence the bad search.

 

AH works fine for me. I enter the category I want to search for, and I search. I don't know what other "functionality" you want. I guess some people don't like being forced to enter a category at all. But it takes, what, 3 seconds?

 

3) LFG system is completely useless, can't search globally for people who are LFG? This day and age? Really?

 

Believe it or not, a lot of MMO players do NOT like global LFG tools. We had this discussion on the Rift forums before Rift implemented their system. You would be surprised how many people HATED the idea of a global LFG system. They said it takes the community out of the game when you queue with randoms from other servers. In the end, Rift put a global LFG in anyway.

 

Personally, I think whatever speeds up queue times is best, so I have no problem with it. My point is, a lot of people don't like it and the lack of a LFG tool does not mean the game is not an MMO. Again, some would argue that LFG takes the community out of the game.

 

4) Character / Race customization not even close to any other MMO, another indicator this game was originally intended to be single player.

 

Does not compute. Does a single player game with tons of character creation options suddenly make it an MMO? No.

 

5) No Macros, Hell even FFXI back in 2002 had them. Simple ones like /cast "spell" "target" would go a long way

 

Single player games can have macros too. Again, failed logic. That said, I agree there should be some BASIC macros added. However, I do not want to see this game become like Rift where people literally have 15 abilities on one button.

 

6) No combat log, not important for a single player game, but damn needed in MMO's

 

I agree. We need combat logs, but the lack of one doesn't make the game not an MMO.

 

7) Mods like DPS meters, again indication of single player design.

 

DPS meters are only used to stroke e-peens or to get in some elitist, snobby guild. "Look I pulled 2400 DPS on such in such boss, here's proof. Let me in." That said, if people want to judge their guild members based on DPS meters, then fine. That's their choice. I may not like them, but if people want them, fine with me. But, still, a lack of a DPS meter does not make the game single-player.

 

8) Raid frames borked, won't always update correctly, can't see debuffs at all.

 

Sounds more like a bug than an intentional plot to take the MMO out of this game.

 

10) Massive bugs in Flashpoints, see: chest loot, boss resets, boss invincible. But minor bugs in single player campaign, shows where all the effort in programming went.

 

Again, bugs. I did the MR flashpoint and the loot chest would not open. We filed a bug. Yeah, it sucks, but it is still a BUG. Has nothing to do with the game being an MMO or not.

 

11) Look at dungeons and raids in every other MMO, they are a part of the world, you travel distances to reach them, they are apart of the landscape and fit the overall theme of the area. Flashpoints in this game, you "teleport" to them from a central hub, teleport back. If that's not an indication that they're tacked on last minute I don't know what is.

 

You are in the SW universe and not Azeroth. You do not take an animal mount between zones like you do in most medieval set MMO's. Furthermore, those dungeons in other games are JUST AS INSTANCED as the FP's here. It just so happens that most of the FP's occur on enemy ships or hijacked republic ships, etc. Just because they don't happen on the regular planets does not make them "tacked on at the last minute." For all I know some of the FP's might happen on the regular worlds, I haven't done most of them.

 

IMO, FP's here fit into the story better than dungeons do in other games. In other games, even though the dungeon is part of the regular zones, it still feels cut-off and contrived.

 

I could go on, but I don't have all year. Every single point is a clear indication that this game was designed from the ground up as a single player game, and then EA came along and said "hey! MMO's make money, turn it into an MMO".

 

Wrong. Bioware wanted to do an MMO but had no idea what the theme was going to be. They eventually settled on Star Wars since they had experience with the IP in the past. The MMO part came before they even knew they were going to make SWTOR.

[SeloDaoC]

Its a single player RPG with a social place where you see a bit more people aka "Fleet Base" and a chatbox which you pay subscription for.

 

Community is what makes an mmo, the feel that your playing with alot of other players, getting to know them and recognizing "that" player when you see them around the world

 

Although, real huge community based realm pride havent existed since Daoc and EQ

[Jalden]

I could go on, but I don't have all year. Every single point is a clear indication that this game was designed from the ground up as a single player game, and then EA came along and said "hey! MMO's make money, turn it into an MMO".

 

Lol. It was announced as an MMO in 2008. It has been an MMO from the start and you not liking the game do not change this fact. You could call it a bad MMO, but it is clearly an MMO.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Jalden

[Jalden]

Its a single player RPG with a social place where you see a bit more people aka "Fleet Base" and a chatbox which you pay subscription for.

 

Community is what makes an mmo, the feel that your playing with alot of other players, getting to know them and recognizing "that" player when you see them around the world

 

Although, real huge community based realm pride havent existed since Daoc and EQ

 

Just because you want DAoC do not make this game not an MMO.

[Jalden]

Well, to be fair... those are the attributes that defined the genre. It's not a stretch to expect them in whichever MMO you play.

 

Those attributes have never defined the genre.

[Yowfatto]

Can someone explain to me the main reasons for this?

 

only a small, weird vocal minority claims this, this horse has been beaten death.

[Weaksauce]

Basically this game just shattered many preconceived notions about the MMO genre. Duly noted.