Why is this claimed to be not a real mmo?

[Seryl]

I feel that people are having a hard time categorizing it because it has such a well developed and engaging storyline.

 

And for those who say its not an MMO: They seem to be angry because they cannot find pve groups because not enough tank and healers are level 50 yet. Therefor all they could do was thie "single player" part of the game.

 

just my 0.2

[Shoxc]

While I agree the UI needs work, a UI fits nowhere in the definition of an MMO.

 

Let's do a comparison: Single player games that have customizable UI's ~1%

MMO's that have customizable UI's ~99%

What is this game more similar to, in UI alone?

 

 

AH works fine for me. I enter the category I want to search for, and I search. I don't know what other "functionality" you want. I guess some people don't like being forced to enter a category at all. But it takes, what, 3 seconds?

 

What if you don't know the category? You find an item, you don't know what it is and you want to sell it, you want to see how much others sell it for. What do you do?

 

Also: why can't I search for only the slot I want?

 

 

 

Believe it or not, a lot of MMO players do NOT like global LFG tools. We had this discussion on the Rift forums before Rift implemented their system. You would be surprised how many people HATED the idea of a global LFG system. They said it takes the community out of the game when you queue with randoms from other servers. In the end, Rift put a global LFG in anyway.

 

Personally, I think whatever speeds up queue times is best, so I have no problem with it. My point is, a lot of people don't like it and the lack of a LFG tool does not mean the game is not an MMO. Again, some would argue that LFG takes the community out of the game.

 

Not talking about cross server queue up anything. Talking about making myself LFG, as per the current system, I travel somewhere, how does another person find me? or see that I am even LFG? They would have to search every single zone, all within the same server. How about the LFG comment randomly disappearing?

 

 

Does not compute. Does a single player game with tons of character creation options suddenly make it an MMO? No.

 

I didn't say Character customization makes an MMO, I said it's important to an MMO because since it is massive multiplayer it gives players the ability to be unique. This game severely limits that ability compared to every other MMO in the current market.

 

 

 

Single player games can have macros too. Again, failed logic. That said, I agree there should be some BASIC macros added. However, I do not want to see this game become like Rift where people literally have 15 abilities on one button.

You seem to deal in absolutes. Learn something: A single feature is not a definition, but it does group games together with others via similarity.

 

Again: Amount of single player games with macros: ~1%

Amount of MMO's with Macros: ~99%

What is this game most similar to?

 

I agree. We need combat logs, but the lack of one doesn't make the game not an MMO.

Again, see above.

 

DPS meters are only used to stroke e-peens or to get in some elitist, snobby guild. "Look I pulled 2400 DPS on such in such boss, here's proof. Let me in." That said, if people want to judge their guild members based on DPS meters, then fine. That's their choice. I may not like them, but if people want them, fine with me. But, still, a lack of a DPS meter does not make the game single-player.

 

Couldn't be more wrong. DPS meters are a tool, how one uses it is up to them. It is ONLY needed in a multiplayer environment where you're not sure if a person is pressing the 1 key over and over, should they get to roll on the same loot that 15 others worked hard for?

 

Sounds more like a bug than an intentional plot to take the MMO out of this game.

Never said it was intentional, I did say it was rushed, overlooked, and generally tacked on. You can't even argue with that.

 

Again, bugs. I did the MR flashpoint and the loot chest would not open. We filed a bug. Yeah, it sucks, but it is still a BUG. Has nothing to do with the game being an MMO or not.

 

Read very carefully, I'm talking about the sheer Number of bugs in Flashpoints vs Bugs in single player campaign, shows where the programming effort went.

 

 

You are in the SW universe and not Azeroth. You do not take an animal mount between zones like you do in most medieval set MMO's. Furthermore, those dungeons in other games are JUST AS INSTANCED as the FP's here. It just so happens that most of the FP's occur on enemy ships or hijacked republic ships, etc. Just because they don't happen on the regular planets does not make them "tacked on at the last minute." For all I know some of the FP's might happen on the regular worlds, I haven't done most of them.

 

IMO, FP's here fit into the story better than dungeons do in other games. In other games, even though the dungeon is part of the regular zones, it still feels cut-off and contrived.

 

Absolutely wrong. They are completely tacked on. A Flashpoint should fit somewhere in the story, they don't. They should be a part of the planet / level you're currently on, they're not. Everything is from a central hub, doesn't fit the story, completely optional.

 

Wrong. Bioware wanted to do an MMO but had no idea what the theme was going to be. They eventually settled on Star Wars since they had experience with the IP in the past. The MMO part came before they even knew they were going to make SWTOR.

 

Citation needed. Because from all the evidence I see, the exact opposite is true.

[sevenex]

I don't get it either. I group up all the time. I find world pvp. I get flashpoint groups pretty easily. My shards usually have 150+ people in them. Good times so far.

[Ceridan]

Ok... let's parse your arguments...

 

1) UI functionality alone is evidence that this game was designed from the ground up as a single player game.

errrm what? the UI actually is similar to other recent MMOs I've played.

Yea the configuration option is lacking, but it's still decent.

 

2) AH functionality feels tacked on. Hence the bad search.

The search system is not that bad, other games have better search systems, but I did not have any problems searching for what I wanted. True, that they should allow us to search only by keyword.

3) LFG system is completely useless, can't search globally for people who are LFG? This day and age? Really?

Open the who window, replace the search term for LFG and you get all the people using this feature... what? you did not toy with the search terms? it took me 2 seconds to figure that one out... come on...

 

4) Character / Race customization not even close to any other MMO, another indicator this game was originally intended to be single player.

True, yet false. True that the character customisation is not even close to other recent MMOs, but both WoW(800ton gorrilla) and DCUO(another recent game) had similar or worse customisation. At least in this game you can choose a body type.

5) No Macros, Hell even FFXI back in 2002 had them. Simple ones like /cast "spell" "target" would go a long way

True, macros would be great. but you need to be carefull about implementing something that allows us users to write code. FFXI's macro system was crap btw, WoW's better and can get you out of anoying situation (/cast ExtraActionButton1 anyone?) but macros might come eventually, specially since we have tons of abilities yet little space to place them(would be great to have conditionnnal based macros... like do this if I press ctrl, do that if I press shift... etc).

 

Suffice to say, I grant you this argument, but if they implement it, I hope it will be more tought out then FFXI (was required because of controller based control scheme) and solid enought not to cause problems.

6) No combat log, not important for a single player game, but damn needed in MMO's

Combat logs are not important in MMOs unless you are doing end game raids. Even then, it's only usefull to find what killed you, specially since we don't have mods to parse it.

7) Mods like DPS meters, again indication of single player design.

DPS metters can die in a fire for all I care. The only thing that does is eat your computer's ressources.

 

DPS metters also serves usually 1 purpose: epeen stroking.

8) Raid frames borked, won't always update correctly, can't see debuffs at all.

It's a bug, they know of it, they are probably trying to fix it.

9) Focus window randomly disappears.

We have a focus window?, ummm well nice(will be usefull to know), the randomly disappearance is probably a bug.

10) Massive bugs in Flashpoints, see: chest loot, boss resets, boss invincible. But minor bugs in single player campaign, shows where all the effort in programming went.

Not only in flashpoints but in normal zones too... but those are bugs btw. anoying bugs, but games are complex software... what did you exptect?, the devs waving a magic wand to fix the bugs while in their basements?

11) Look at dungeons and raids in every other MMO, they are a part of the world, you travel distances to reach them, they are apart of the landscape and fit the overall theme of the area. Flashpoints in this game, you "teleport" to them from a central hub, teleport back. If that's not an indication that they're tacked on last minute I don't know what is.

Flashpoints can happen on various planets, not only those available to you.

Instances in, let's say wow, are all on the same planets, usually in zones available to you.

I could go on, but I don't have all year. Every single point is a clear indication that this game was designed from the ground up as a single player game, and then EA came along and said "hey! MMO's make money, turn it into an MMO".

 

You have 2 points that are valid or semi valid... come back when you get arguments that are not related to bugs or to your misconseption of what an MMO is based on WoW...

Edited January 1, 2012 by Ceridan

[Ghaiana]

Have barely been out of a group since level 1, because I want all the social points I can get.

[Shoxc]

*Snip*

 

Lol I don't have time to go through all that again, just read my post directly above yours. It pretty much rebuts everything you said, and I posted it before you.

 

A feature is not a definition, but it is a good indicator of where effort was put during production. Hence, single player elements are polished, MMO elements seem rushed.

 

But I will say this, I never mentioned wow in my original post, or drew any comparisons from it. Why did you bring it up?

[ratfanatic]

You want a logical explanation for trolling as if it even deserved one. That's your problem.

[Ceridan]

Let's do a comparison: Single player games that have customizable UI's ~1%

MMO's that have customizable UI's ~99%

What is this game more similar to, in UI alone?

 

Fallacy: Call to majority.

 

 

What if you don't know the category? You find an item, you don't know what it is and you want to sell it, you want to see how much others sell it for. What do you do?

 

Also: why can't I search for only the slot I want?

I agree, a search term based search would be nice... but usually, categories makes sense.

 

 

 

Not talking about cross server queue up anything. Talking about making myself LFG, as per the current system, I travel somewhere, how does another person find me? or see that I am even LFG? They would have to search every single zone, all within the same server. How about the LFG comment randomly disappearing?

See my comment above... use the search term LFG

 

I didn't say Character customization makes an MMO, I said it's important to an MMO because since it is massive multiplayer it gives players the ability to be unique. This game severely limits that ability compared to every other MMO in the current market.

WoW has less character customization. DCUO has about the same amount (if we disregard the costume part... because where talking about the character creation not the character wardrobe).

 

 

You seem to deal in absolutes. Learn something: A single feature is not a definition, but it does group games together with others via similarity.

 

Again: Amount of single player games with macros: ~1%

Amount of MMO's with Macros: ~99%

What is this game most similar to?

 

Again, see above.

Fallacy: Call to majority

 

Couldn't be more wrong. DPS meters are a tool, how one uses it is up to them. It is ONLY needed in a multiplayer environment where you're not sure if a person is pressing the 1 key over and over, should they get to roll on the same loot that 15 others worked hard for?

DPS meters are usually used by people who like to stroke their epeens... The actual use of said tool is only found in raids to discover a dps output problems in boss encounter, but even then, it's uncessary.

Never said it was intentional, I did say it was rushed, overlooked, and generally tacked on. You can't even argue with that.

 

Read very carefully, I'm talking about the sheer Number of bugs in Flashpoints vs Bugs in single player campaign, shows where the programming effort went.

See my other response... Bugs are bugs, they are the unfortunate vermin of any complex software. Belive me, it's actually hard to find flaws in software, and even harder to actually find a fix for it that DOES NOT CREATE ANOTHER BUG.

 

 

Absolutely wrong. They are completely tacked on. A Flashpoint should fit somewhere in the story, they don't. They should be a part of the planet / level you're currently on, they're not. Everything is from a central hub, doesn't fit the story, completely optional.

 

No they are not. The point of Carack-station/imperial fleet equivalent was, from the start, to be a central hub for all instances. Because it makes more sense in this game because instances can be set to happen all over the galaxy.

 

Lol I don't have time to go through all that again, just read my post directly above yours. It pretty much rebuts everything you said, and I posted it before you.

 

A feature is not a definition, but it is a good indicator of where effort was put during production. Hence, single player elements are polished, MMO elements seem rushed.

 

But I will say this, I never mentioned wow in my original post, or drew any comparisons from it. Why did you bring it up?

Just destroyed it I think... your turn.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Ceridan

[oflow]

They say it because it doesnt play like an MMO.

 

It plays like a single player rpg that you can play MP online.

 

This game is instanced just like GW1 was and no one complained when people said that game wasnt an MMO, but for some reason everyone wants to defend TOR's flaws.

 

Theres nothing massively multi-player about this game.

 

You can wait in a queue for an hour then log in, then you see 1-2 ppl in each zoned area.

[rainoc]

I just want to post my OP, but first I do love the game it is everything I wanted. With that being said it is kinda messed up I have to wait 10 min. or so to log onto my server to get in and find at most 80 or so people on any planet or zone. It doesn't have the massive feel to it like some others have. I've been running with pretty much the same group of people since the beginning an I'm lvl 40 now, I'd hope for the massive #'s I heard about. Now only time will tell.

[joscomi]

Can someone explain to me the main reasons for this?

 

I belive because of the lack of open world dungeons, and the need for groups in general. All Heroics can be skipped, and instances don't have to be done. Of course I am lvl 30, and it could change from here, I don't really know.

 

If there were open dungeons and a challenging world, there would be no need for LFD, and such, because it would create a cohesive community.

 

Dual spec, LFD destroys the bases of a MMMRPG. Remember in days past, MMUDS (there was too many to talk about specific game. Remember EQ, DOAC for example all the pain and ******** which forced a reliance of diffent classes, the feel of exploration, the danger of traveling alone.

 

The watering down has created the atmospher we are in today. It has turned games into MMOs, which to me are watere down MMMRPG, games which no longer creates the need for communities, games that are now single player games.

 

People that claim this isn't a real MMO, actually it is. MMOs are now single player games which if you want co op then you can, if not you don't. There are many SPGs that you can simply log in and be Quied for players to play the game together. MMOs have become as such, its a shame there are no longer MMORPGs created today.

 

It's a crying shame.

[Ceridan]

They say it because it doesnt play like an MMO.

 

It plays like a single player rpg that you can play MP online.

 

This game is instanced just like GW1 was and no one complained when people said that game wasnt an MMO, but for some reason everyone wants to defend TOR's flaws.

 

Theres nothing massively multi-player about this game.

 

You can wait in a queue for an hour then log in, then you see 1-2 ppl in each zoned area.

 

This game is sharded... to try to load balance and preven lag issues.

 

This game has instances... like every other MMOs.

 

This game has story phases... guess what MMO started phasing?

 

Case point: GW1 had instances for every missions if I recall... this game has phases for only important stuff... to preven camping objectives and improve imersion.

[andrelle]

Count how many times you have interacted with other people. For the vast majority of players, it is very few.

 

Quests are mostly solo, each planet has a few heroic quests lots of people skip and some classes can even solo those. Plus some of the quests involve instances which you cannot access unless you are on those quests.

 

Every area has multiple shards so while there might actually be a couple of hundred people on your planet, you will likely never see more than 6.

 

Crafting is all solo and the stuff you make is really not needed by anyone as players can just get better items by leveling up a couple of levels or quest rewards.

 

Space is all solo and takes you out of the game world totally. There is no real guild system or housing system, nobody really wants to go on your ship and stand around. There are no chat bubbles and most emotes do not work. The social hubs they thought would be active (fleet, cantina) are total ghost towns.

 

There is really nothing to do other than level up, which is a solo game.

 

Things change a bit once you get to level 50, but that is a pretty long haul just to get to some kind of consistent player interaction via the end game instances.

 

I guess you can PVP if you want, but even that is in an instance.

 

Its a good game, but it's not really a MMO.

 

This ^

 

I love the game, but it is not an MMO, more an MMO-lite. Standard MMO combat designs are not implemented, such as "target of target." Crafting is extremely simplified, and you really only need the crafted items yourself. You can get the same if not much better drops.

 

There's literally no one around, due to this "sharding" system. Even so, you don't need anyone around. Want to run that Heroic? Gain two quick levels above it, and you can run it solo, with your companion.

 

Social points? Explain the worth, I see none. I can spend commendations for better.

 

Its a single player game with multiplayer features. But an MMO it is not.

 

I realize that just because you can play it solo doesn't make it a single player game, but there are no multiplayer features that will advance your character any further, either.

[ZEROUMUS]

Can someone explain to me the main reasons for this?

 

very simple way to explain this

 

 

your character can go from level 1 -50 and beyond with NO resistance from other players. The other players in the typical MMO universe today cant not place any influence on your progression. sure there is people walking around you, but for the most park 90% of the MMO is just a lobby. the other 10% is PVP which is also a joke in most games these days simply because losers get XP for sucking. even losing pvp does not effect your progression.

 

 

a REAL MMO involves players actually competing for limited resources in 1 open and seamless world. people who win get to progress to the point where they reach their equals, people who lose stay right where they are

 

 

and now that i have solved this clear as day, the moderators can go ahead and hide this thread somewhere dumb

Edited January 1, 2012 by ZEROUMUS

[Sephendrine]

There is still a Flat Earth Society. That's right, there are people who walk out of their homes, look around, and say, "The whole world is flat."

 

You simply can't fix certain types of stupid. That's why.

[ZEROUMUS]

a REAL MMO involves players actually competing for limited resources in 1 open and seamless world. people who win get to progress to the point where they reach their equals, people who lose stay right where they are.. the only other requirment for a real mmo beyond that is for there to be a lot of people, but that is kinda of covered by the seamless world requirment

[Qoojo]

Can someone explain to me the main reasons for this?

 

Who cares if someone claims that this isn't MMO. I think the ones saying it do it just tick off people that are worried about such designations.

[JakeMck]

LOL@ all the people who are saying it's not an MMO cause it's not a WoW clone with light sabers.... MMORPG = Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.... hmm yup its massive, its multiplayer and it's online. So, ITS A FRIGGIN MMO!!! just because its not like EVERY other WoW clone doesnt change the definition of MMO... good lord people are so self rightous that they think they can change definitions now? ppl who keep crying about seamless and yada yada that has nothing to do with what an MMO is... please gdiaf... you're all sad.

[Florial]

I find the game quite massive and overwhelming in some cases. Hubby and I are blown away by Tatoonie and feel that we haven't scratched the surface in terms of exploration, all the quests, etc. The world does have a bit of a fragmented feel as you go into a new area and a new map opens but this seems to be the nature of almost every MMO that I've played. I actually enjoy all the little instances around the world and we are having the time of our lives. This is a perfect game solo or in our case, duo. I like the small group feel to things.

 

With that said and perhaps this is in the game and I haven't notcied it, a few wishes:

 

-A central chat channel whether that be trade or whatnot. I just don't see people talking all that much unless I go into a central hub like the Imperial Fleet. In this huge world on a very popular server, we see just a few souls out questing.

-As much as I hate to say this, some sort of dungeon finder (server only) or a better tool to get folks to group up. I see very few people using the built in LFG tool and at times, it has been a bit tough to put together a group for us because folks may not see our chat. Meeting folks has been hit or miss.

[SnoggyMack]

The "maps are not together" whine is amazing. If any of you whiners out there can tall me a good way that you walk through a door on planet A and come out on planet B... annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd GO!

 

Stargate.

 

It had a movie and a series. Why not an MMO too?

 

[ZEROUMUS]

LOL@ all the people who are saying it's not an MMO cause it's not a WoW clone with light sabers.... MMORPG = Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.... hmm yup its massive, its multiplayer and it's online. So, ITS A FRIGGIN MMO!!! just because its not like EVERY other WoW clone doesnt change the definition of MMO... good lord people are so self rightous that they think they can change definitions now? ppl who keep crying about seamless and yada yada that has nothing to do with what an MMO is... please gdiaf... you're all sad.

 

 

please defend your opinion that this game is massive

[SnoggyMack]

I belive because of the lack of open world dungeons, and the need for groups in general.

 

Wait, this thread right here says this game relies too heavily on grouping:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=115657

[SnoggyMack]

a REAL MMO involves players actually competing for limited resources in 1 open and seamless world.

 

That's only one kind of MMORPG.

 

Rift, Champions, DCUO, CoH and Pirates of the Burning Sea are all real MMOs that do not fit that model.

[ZEROUMUS]

That's only one kind of MMORPG.

 

Rift, Champions, DCUO, CoH and Pirates of the Burning Sea are all real MMOs that do not fit that model.

 

 

sure, but when people complain about this not being an MMO, my argument is what they are talking about.

 

 

your argument about MMOS would be like me saying we need to include justin Bieber in a dicsusion about real music

Edited January 1, 2012 by ZEROUMUS

[darthdoll]

For an "MMO" essentially released in 2012, it is missing the most basic modern MMO features.

 

1) UI functionality alone is evidence that this game was designed from the ground up as a single player game.

 

Proof? nice opinion.

 

2) AH functionality feels tacked on. Hence the bad search.

 

It could use some improvements but learn to use it as it is

 

3) LFG system is completely useless, can't search globally for people who are LFG? This day and age? Really?

 

Really? L2search properly by doing /who 50

 

4) Character / Race customization not even close to any other MMO, another indicator this game was originally intended to be single player.

 

I love how you keep using your opinions as facts

 

5) No Macros, Hell even FFXI back in 2002 had them. Simple ones like /cast "spell" "target" would go a long way

 

Macros is for the bad players who need to press 1 button and complete their dps rotation

 

6) No combat log, not important for a single player game, but damn needed in MMO's

 

No, its not

 

7) Mods like DPS meters, again indication of single player design.

 

Nice opinion again

 

8) Raid frames borked, won't always update correctly, can't see debuffs at all.

 

Ive had no issue

 

9) Focus window randomly disappears.

 

Ive had no issue

 

10) Massive bugs in Flashpoints, see: chest loot, boss resets, boss invincible. But minor bugs in single player campaign, shows where all the effort in programming went.

 

Boo hoo get over it, how many bugs were/still are in WoW?

 

11) Look at dungeons and raids in every other MMO, they are a part of the world, you travel distances to reach them, they are apart of the landscape and fit the overall theme of the area. Flashpoints in this game, you "teleport" to them from a central hub, teleport back. If that's not an indication that they're tacked on last minute I don't know what is.

 

Yeah with WoW's instant travel, thats the same thing

 

I could go on, but I don't have all year. Every single point is a clear indication that this game was designed from the ground up as a single player game, and then EA came along and said "hey! MMO's make money, turn it into an MMO".

 

Once again, your opinion

 

Answers are in RED

Edited January 1, 2012 by darthdoll