The Real Problem With Slicing

[TheRealRainier]

I have 2 things to say in response to this thread.

 

1) Slicing is still a great money maker, you just aren't doing it right. I easily can afford even my level 50 mount right now and I only have 1 character and they are level 31 currently. Vast, vast majority of that money has been made off of slicing post-nerf.

 

2) If you don't like crafting/grinding, this game is the best MMO option for you right now by far; only take gathering/mission skills and just let your companions create stuff for you out of thin air. Now if you refuse to craft/gather/AND use the GTN, I'm sorry but refusing in every way shape or form to participate in the in-game economy then complain that you have no money is asinine.

 

2credits,

 

_rainier

[Delusiion]

In a 12 hour period of gameplay, I was able to go from 500 credits to 200,000, JUST from questing. Seems balanced when my class skills cost me 15,000 and up per skill, at level 38. I'm not having problems, and have never used Slicing.

 

A lot of complaining about this but I have to agree with the above post

 

I don’t grind for credits and I have enough to outfit myself with the very best gear available for my level 45 Sorc and companions. I pay for all my training (including speeders), repairs, and crew skill missions (all over 300) with only basic questing. I have yet to sell anything on the Global Market but I have purchased a lot from it.

Now I will say that I have ran solo so far, except for a couple flash points, because I wanted the challenge so maybe that’s the difference …

[KTheAlchemist]

I have 2 things to say in response to this thread.

 

1) Slicing is still a great money maker, you just aren't doing it right. I easily can afford even my level 50 mount right now and I only have 1 character and they are level 31 currently. Vast, vast majority of that money has been made off of slicing post-nerf.

 

2) If you don't like crafting/grinding, this game is the best MMO option for you right now by far; only take gathering/mission skills and just let your companions create stuff for you out of thin air. Now if you refuse to craft/gather/AND use the GTN, I'm sorry but refusing in every way shape or form to participate in the in-game economy then complain that you have no money is asinine.

 

2credits,

 

_rainier

 

1. I'm really not sure what to say when I seem claims like this, considering we've seen hard math that says this shouldn't be the case.

 

2. They don't create anything out of thin air, they create it out of credits. It's one money sink in a game of many...it creates some unique challenges from a design perspective because you spend credits for goods but you don't give those credits to other players for those goods, rather they disappear into the sink. Asinine? Well...maybe not using every tool available, but I'm not really prepared to call it asinine, especially with the awful state of the GTC's UI.

[Finis]

I read to page 9, then skipped to the end, sorry.

 

But I find a fundamental flaw with the idea that pre-nerf slicing was/is required for a healthy in-game economy. Slicers didn't participate in the market economy, they by-passed the economy all together and produced money from nowhere. Also, even in the brief time that pre-nerf slicing was around, inflation was already noticeable. People that did not have slicing, and not were not marketeers were unable to afford things off the GTN, because crafters (like myself) were marking up with the expectation that slicers had hundreds of thousands of credits by the time they were in their thirties.

 

Specific example:

 

Two days before the slicing nerf, I hit a Purple Superior recipe for one of the items I make, I had the mats for two of them and produced them. These were level 25 items. One of them came up a Mastercraft. I linked them in trade and put them up on the GTN for 25k for the Mastercraft, and 20k for the Superior. I had notifications of sales before i had a chance to walk from the GTN terminal, to my ship docking bay. I turned around, searched for the purple mats needed to make more, bought enough mats to make 3 more, cooked them, put them up on the GTN and once again, linked to trade with an announcement of the sale going up. This time the one mastercraft I got I put up for 30k, and the supers for 23k.

 

All three sold within 25 minutes.

 

These were level 25 items. Going for 20-30k. Ridiculousness. Now days, I'm lucky to get 7k for those very same recipes, even though in theory, more people should be in the level range and the demand greater. I still have never seen Superior and mastercraft versions of those items since, so I know it's not competition driving prices down.

 

There may be a number of other factors, but if I was to place a bet, it's that the amount of 'free money' being introduced into the economy. Now I price my items more reasonably, and anyone, even non-marketeers and non-slicers can afford them. And I still make stupid amounts of money.

 

Slicing was not key to a healthy economy; the exact opposite, it was rapidly leading to three types of market denizens. Those that had slicing, those that made money off slicers, and those that were neither, and couldn't afford to even open the GTN.

 

An economy is more than the cost of living, it's buyers and sellers. Slicing was looking like it was going to be a requirement if you wanted to be a buyer if you didn't want to take the trouble to be a seller.

 

Now, this has nothing to do with you cost of living arguments. I can't speak to those. I'm an avid crafter and am more than happy to spend 20 minutes a day playing the market and rolling in enough profits to have as many credits as I could possibly want. I understand not everyone likes that part of the MMO game. (Which is fine with me, less competition). I am speaking merely to the statement that slicing is required for a healthy economy. Which I emphatically disagree with. Pre-slicing nerf inflation was terrible, even at only a few weeks into the game, can you imagine the economy six months from now if everyone had a slicing alt with an unfixed Slicing. I hope you like the idea of new players trying to pay 50k for level 25 implants.

[Sunsoar]

The problem is the same 3 recipes over and over and hardly getting any 340 slicing missions. We need more recipes imo and more unique ones since it is pretty pointless now.

[TheRealRainier]

1. I'm really not sure what to say when I seem claims like this, considering we've seen hard math that says this shouldn't be the case.

 

2. They don't create anything out of thin air, they create it out of credits. It's one money sink in a game of many...it creates some unique challenges from a design perspective because you spend credits for goods but you don't give those credits to other players for those goods, rather they disappear into the sink. Asinine? Well...maybe not using every tool available, but I'm not really prepared to call it asinine, especially with the awful state of the GTC's UI.

 

All the hard math I've seen in these QQ threads conveniently leaves out all the actually good parts of slicing aka the gathering and the selling of missions. So yea it looks terrible if you want it to look terrible.

 

No, its clearly asinine, name any multiplayer game where you can have these "minimum cost of living" without crafting, without gathering or grinding, or using the AH.

 

I also refute the claim you can't pay for your skills with just quest money; that's complete BS. Yea you might not be able to afford your mounts, but guess what, those are luxuries, not a "minimum cost of living."

Edited January 3, 2012 by TheRealRainier

[KTheAlchemist]

All the hard math I've seen in these QQ threads conveniently leaves out all the actually good parts of slicing aka the gathering and the selling of missions. So yea it looks terrible if you want it to look terrible.

 

No, its clearly asinine, name any multiplayer game where you can have these "minimum cost of living" without crafting, without gathering or grinding, or using the AH.

 

I also refute the claim you can't pay for your skills with just quest money; that's complete BS. Yea you might not be able to afford your mounts, but guess what, those are luxuries, not a "minimum cost of living."

 

The thing about those "actually good parts" is you're going to find the GREATEST amount of variance from person to person because unlike crewskills with clearer purposes, you cannot "mission" for mission discoveries or schematics, etc. You get them as a rare drop which means individual experience is going to vary quite a bit on these.

 

I believe that the higher mount tiers are a luxury, but the first tier is absolutely not. If you don't believe me, try missioning Tattooine and beyond without one. It's possible, but these planets are so spread-out past 25 that trying to do them without a mount would be insanely tedious.

[KTheAlchemist]

I read to page 9, then skipped to the end, sorry.

 

But I find a fundamental flaw with the idea that pre-nerf slicing was/is required for a healthy in-game economy. Slicers didn't participate in the market economy, they by-passed the economy all together and produced money from nowhere. Also, even in the brief time that pre-nerf slicing was around, inflation was already noticeable. People that did not have slicing, and not were not marketeers were unable to afford things off the GTN, because crafters (like myself) were marking up with the expectation that slicers had hundreds of thousands of credits by the time they were in their thirties.

 

Specific example:

 

Two days before the slicing nerf, I hit a Purple Superior recipe for one of the items I make, I had the mats for two of them and produced them. These were level 25 items. One of them came up a Mastercraft. I linked them in trade and put them up on the GTN for 25k for the Mastercraft, and 20k for the Superior. I had notifications of sales before i had a chance to walk from the GTN terminal, to my ship docking bay. I turned around, searched for the purple mats needed to make more, bought enough mats to make 3 more, cooked them, put them up on the GTN and once again, linked to trade with an announcement of the sale going up. This time the one mastercraft I got I put up for 30k, and the supers for 23k.

 

All three sold within 25 minutes.

 

These were level 25 items. Going for 20-30k. Ridiculousness. Now days, I'm lucky to get 7k for those very same recipes, even though in theory, more people should be in the level range and the demand greater. I still have never seen Superior and mastercraft versions of those items since, so I know it's not competition driving prices down.

 

There may be a number of other factors, but if I was to place a bet, it's that the amount of 'free money' being introduced into the economy. Now I price my items more reasonably, and anyone, even non-marketeers and non-slicers can afford them. And I still make stupid amounts of money.

 

Slicing was not key to a healthy economy; the exact opposite, it was rapidly leading to three types of market denizens. Those that had slicing, those that made money off slicers, and those that were neither, and couldn't afford to even open the GTN.

 

An economy is more than the cost of living, it's buyers and sellers. Slicing was looking like it was going to be a requirement if you wanted to be a buyer if you didn't want to take the trouble to be a seller.

 

Now, this has nothing to do with you cost of living arguments. I can't speak to those. I'm an avid crafter and am more than happy to spend 20 minutes a day playing the market and rolling in enough profits to have as many credits as I could possibly want. I understand not everyone likes that part of the MMO game. (Which is fine with me, less competition). I am speaking merely to the statement that slicing is required for a healthy economy. Which I emphatically disagree with. Pre-slicing nerf inflation was terrible, even at only a few weeks into the game, can you imagine the economy six months from now if everyone had a slicing alt with an unfixed Slicing. I hope you like the idea of new players trying to pay 50k for level 25 implants.

 

I'm not sure at what point it seemed like I'm saying Slicing was needed for a healthy economy. The entire point of my OP was that it is not, and that rather than needing to rebuff it to unhealthy levels, the base expenses should be re-evaluated.

[Thanatosx]

Consider this. your not a neutral observer. Neither am I. A neutral observer is necessary for any meaningful observations because some times merely the way you ask a question can affect the result.

 

consider the following 2 questions. "Do you think you need more credits to pay for skills/repair bills/speeders?" and "Are the credits gained per level sufficient to pay your expenses?" Those are essentially the same question but your likely to get 2 different answers from the same person.

 

We're too close to the problem so it's hard for us to gather data in a non-biased fashion. You can quote me anecdotal evidence till your blew in the face but till someone provides some solid non-biased data I'll remain skeptical.

 

I don't believe you have to be a neutral observer to have a meaningful observation, especially when you are the one experiencing it and watching others experience it directly. Reporting that, doesn't mean one has an agenda or make one biased.

 

That sounds like lawyer speak to me and that is inherently deceptive. lol. If you get 2 different answers, if you queried further, you'd probably find the people didn't really understand questions.

 

I disagree I'm too close to the problem for me to provide information in any kind of non-biased fashion. My opinion is based of my direct experience and the experience of my regular group mate. I'm not trying to push an agenda...I am honestly trying to find out how people have so much money doing the same exact thing I did...when I don't have that much money. The same thing my group mate did. Our experience has obviously been different than yours and I was contributing to the thread specifically to say, "hey, we're not all getting the same results even though we are supposedly playing via the same method."

 

I am sure you will remain skeptical in any regards because you have already made your mind up on what you believe you know are the only facts. *Shrugs*

[Thanatosx]

1. I'm really not sure what to say when I seem claims like this, considering we've seen hard math that says this shouldn't be the case.

 

Just to interject -- pseudo random number generators that determine mission success, crits and such aren't really random and it is possible for someone to get a seed that provides them with a long string of nothing but good roles and luck. It could be something like that. You can see the effect if you are in a group and one person constantly wins every roll with a high roll. I've seen that some in this game and a lot in others. On the other hand it could be an anomaly or outright deception.

[KTheAlchemist]

Just to interject -- pseudo random number generators that determine mission success, crits and such aren't really random and it is possible for someone to get a seed that provides them with a long string of nothing but good roles and luck. It could be something like that. You can see the effect if you are in a group and one person constantly wins every roll with a high roll. I've seen that some in this game and a lot in others. On the other hand it could be an anomaly or outright deception.

 

Actually I'm thinking of posts where people actually went, ran a boatload of missions, and recorded the results in spreadsheet format.

[TheRealRainier]

Just to interject -- pseudo random number generators that determine mission success, crits and such aren't really random and it is possible for someone to get a seed that provides them with a long string of nothing but good roles and luck. It could be something like that. You can see the effect if you are in a group and one person constantly wins every roll with a high roll. I've seen that some in this game and a lot in others. On the other hand it could be an anomaly or outright deception.

 

 

This is inaccurate. The difference between pseudo random and true analog random is completely undetectable by humans without the assistance of burly processing. For the vast majority of intents and purposes, pseudo random is as good as random.

[TheRealRainier]

Actually I'm thinking of posts where people actually went, ran a boatload of missions, and recorded the results in spreadsheet format.

 

 

Then dig them up and link them in this thread, because the ones I've seen stated up front that the mission drops and gathering were too variable so they left them out. Unfortunately, over the course of meaningful play time, these 2 factors are now going to make up the majority of profit with slicing. Like i said before its easy to make something look terrible with data if you really want to make it look so. Doesn't mean its terrible. Please drop slicing and find something else, just more nodes for me and less competition selling mission drops.

 

I am just here to point out that slicing is not a money sink post nerf, and players that have any reasonable expectations in an MMO should not expect to have the finer things without giving any thought whatsoever to a revenue stream. They went down that route in warhammer and the forums were up in arms that "money has no meaning." It really created a ripple effect where most things became meaningless.

[KTheAlchemist]

Then dig them up and link them in this thread, because the ones I've seen stated up front that the mission drops and gathering were too variable so they left them out. Unfortunately, over the course of meaningful play time, these 2 factors are now going to make up the majority of profit with slicing. Like i said before its easy to make something look terrible with data if you really want to make it look so. Doesn't mean its terrible. Please drop slicing and find something else, just more nodes for me and less competition selling mission drops.

 

I am just here to point out that slicing is not a money sink post nerf, and players that have any reasonable expectations in an MMO should not expect to have the finer things without giving any thought whatsoever to a revenue stream. They went down that route in warhammer and the forums were up in arms that "money has no meaning." It really created a ripple effect where most things became meaningless.

 

 

The tricky point about the mission drops being too variable within the topic of THIS thread, is twofold:

 

1. They cannot be counted upon. The variance from player A to player B will be too wide and even presuming they start selling everything they get on the GTC, this variance could make the difference between profitable and money sink from player to player. I would suggest, although changes to Slicing are slightly off topic, that they remove augments from the mission list, make THOSE rare drops since the demand is so low anyway, and replace them with...oh let's call it a "sealed container" for lack of a better term. Open that, it gives you a random mission-level-appropriate schematic or mission discovery. But that doesn't actually address the problem I believe exists and am discussing in this thread, which is...

 

2. Mission Discoveries and Schematics do not create credits, they simply move them around. Massive inflation can be horrible, massive deflation is nearly as bad due to the presence of fixed costs, "expenses" as I outlined in the OP. Deflation seems to me to be the trouble at the moment.

 

You seem to be confusing "the finer things" with "baseline expenses". Try not to think in all-or-nothing absolutes. I am not, nor have I ever, nor will I ever suggest that costs should be scaled down to the point that money has no meaning. I am not suggesting a huge, sweeping nerf to expenses...just a moderate downward adjustment. Simply to the point where someone "living reasonably" as they level can afford things without ever feeling forced to diverge from how they normally play the game, which it at least seems that a sizeable portion of the game's population is having trouble with. I am not sure why exactly this is...some possibilities have been suggested but without much more verified testing or numbers from Bioware they can't really be verified. At any rate I personally know enough of the players having a rough time that I'm not going to take what I feel is the easy way out and say "You're doing it wrong."

[Fabrians]

I can put it very simple for you

 

I do not want to craft

 

i do not want to grind

 

i want to enjoy the environment, game play, and voice acting

 

I achieved this through slicing, i didn't have to spend time crafting, i still had to fight to get safe's and such, if you send a companion on a mission and spend money to make money, then that skill SHOULD have the chance to make more than it costs, or its useless. A crafter gets items to use in his craft and therefore profit, but not me, WHY!

 

So simply FIX slicing or ill find another game!

 

Edit: if you think i was making too much money with slicing, you take the skill, I don't Mind:D

Edited January 4, 2012 by Fabrians

[KTheAlchemist]

I can put it very simple for you

 

I do not want to craft

 

i do not want to grind

 

i want to enjoy the environment, game play, and voice acting

 

I achieved this through slicing, i didn't have to spend time crafting, i still had to fight to get safe's and such, if all you do on a mission is spend money to make money, then that skill SHOULD have the chance to make more than it costs or its useless. A crafter gets items to use in his craft and therefore profit, but not me, WHY!

 

So simply FIX slicing or ill find another game!

 

I understand the frustration, but I think that adjusting the things making you feel strapped for cash would be a better solution, which was what the OP was about.

[Aliera]

I think the real problem with slicing was actually not the amount of credits - it was maybe a bit too much, but not by far.

 

The REAL problem was that you could level slicing to 400 at about character level 20, which gave you access to level 50 credit rewards at very low level. At this level, these feel (and are) completely out of line, which makes the skill seem overpowered.

 

The correct simple fix would have been to just cap the allowed skill level at a certain character level, by letting a character at level X only accept missions of level X. Problem solved, while still keeping the profession viable.

[KTheAlchemist]

I'm starting to wonder if some of the variance we're seeing in people's stories could be explained by this theory, to sum up and refine some of the previous comments I've seen:

 

1. There are many ways to level up through the game doing "basic" gameplay. PvE Missions, PvE Flashpoints, PvP Warzones, with Slicing, without Slicing, grouping up and doing Group Missions or going it solo all the way, and so on. Each of these may vary both in average Credits per Level, and average Repairs per Level.

 

2. Many of these can be mixed and matched in different amounts as you play, adding further variance.

 

3. Adding up these factors, the variance in Credits per Level may be so great as to cause a significant number of players to be straining or even unable to afford expenses on a timely schedule, while others will encounter no problems at all, with a spectrum in between.

 

If this theory is true, perhaps the solution may be simply to buff the credits per XP of some activities.

Edited January 4, 2012 by KTheAlchemist

[leihn]

I'm starting to wonder if some of the variance we're seeing in people's stories could be explained by this theory, to sum up and refine some of the previous comments I've seen:

 

1. There are many ways to level up through the game doing "basic" gameplay. PvE Missions, PvE Flashpoints, PvP Warzones, with Slicing, without Slicing, grouping up and doing Group Missions or going it solo all the way, and so on. Each of these may vary both in average Credits per Level, and average Repairs per Level.

 

2. Many of these can be mixed and matched in different amounts as you play, adding further variance.

 

3. Adding up these factors, the variance in Credits per Level may be so great as to cause a significant number of players to be straining or even unable to afford expenses on a timely schedule, while others will encounter no problems at all, with a spectrum in between.

 

If this theory is true, perhaps the solution may be simply to buff the credits per XP of some activities.

 

Disagree slightly, not everything should have equivalence so much as equality. A person leveling via Flashpoints is likely to have better loot than someone leveling via Missions, as a result, they may incur more expenses (higher chance of death) and have fewer credits (no reward turn ins) per exp.

 

The real problem I have right now is the entitlement that people feel because they've been spoiled by Slicing, it's gotten to the point that although there are numerous avenues for credits from questing in this game, we have people who honestly believe there is no way for them to afford their costs as they play other than a magical button that they press that allows them to have free money after a few minutes.

 

I think it's actually acceptable that leveling exclusively through Warzones or Flashpoints is less credit-profitable than leveling via Missions because you have alternative rewards for those activities.

 

I would honestly wager, if that the information for Quest Rewards available listed the Credit reward as well as the experience reward we'd find that the available quests per planet and total credit per exp far exceeds the expenses of leveling a character, I don't think you even need to level purely on Missions and eschew all other activities, but if you do some quests per level, you'll get a good amount of credits.

 

The money is out there, people aren't interested in getting it because it conflicts with their "play style" apparently, which I really think is because they've been spoiled by Slicing covering all of their questionable financial decisions.

[The_Archon]

I do not want to craft

 

i do not want to grind

 

i want to enjoy the environment, game play, and voice acting

 

I achieved this through slicing,

 

YOU sir are in luck!

 

You can achieve this with no crafting or gathering skill at all!

 

In any case, you can still keep slicing and you will still continue to turn a profit. Where is your complaint exactly?

[Wisz_Rethon]

I've never been a slicer and I payed for everything just fine, I'm broke atm but thats probably because I just refitted all my companions with new gear.

 

I'm pretty sure the complaints about slicing are because it's no longer the free missions for 2X+ credits it used to be and is now the grind nodes skill it was ment to be and alot of people dont wanna have to work for their profits.

 

 

for me the problme with slicing is that it doesn't produce a benefit as any other mission skill does.

 

When you grind a node of IW metal you get some metal, which you can sell at the GTN for hard cash (I've seen lvl 1 UW metal go for 2 or 3k in stacks of 2

 

When you grind a node of slicing you get some cash (much less than what you'd get from selling a stack of said metal), and upon very rare occasions a mission discovery for some other mission skill.

 

My personal problem is that slicing doesn't earn me enough money to buy said metal in the GTN and it should. It is now sub par with any other mission skill and I'm considering dropping it

[Thanatosx]

YOU sir are in luck!

 

You can achieve this with no crafting or gathering skill at all!

 

In any case, you can still keep slicing and you will still continue to turn a profit. Where is your complaint exactly?

 

 

You left off the rest of his quote, which is just as important as the part you are trying to take out of context. And I guess your definition of 'turning a profit' means 'losing money more consistently than gaining it", from a skill that's primary reward is making money.

 

i didn't have to spend time crafting, i still had to fight to get safe's and such, if you send a companion on a mission and spend money to make money, then that skill SHOULD have the chance to make more than it costs, or its useless. A crafter gets items to use in his craft and therefore profit, but not me, WHY!

 

So simply FIX slicing or ill find another game!

 

Edit: if you think i was making too much money with slicing, you take the skill, I don't Mind:D

[Lexster]

Slicing missions turn a better profit in the tier 3 and 4 range than the tier 5 and 6 range.

[The_Archon]

You left off the rest of his quote, which is just as important as the part you are trying to take out of context. And I guess your definition of 'turning a profit' means 'losing money more consistently than gaining it", from a skill that's primary reward is making money.

 

Which skill loses money exactly? You're not talking about slicing here. Slicing is pure profit unless all you do is spam missions. I guarantee he turns a profit... as long as he actually slices lock boxes.

 

It's not even a gamble to sell your goods on the GTN. It's 100% profit. It's pure credits. How can you people still be complaining about no profit? Stop spamming missions! You will see profit!!

[KTheAlchemist]

Disagree slightly, not everything should have equivalence so much as equality. A person leveling via Flashpoints is likely to have better loot than someone leveling via Missions, as a result, they may incur more expenses (higher chance of death) and have fewer credits (no reward turn ins) per exp.

 

The real problem I have right now is the entitlement that people feel because they've been spoiled by Slicing, it's gotten to the point that although there are numerous avenues for credits from questing in this game, we have people who honestly believe there is no way for them to afford their costs as they play other than a magical button that they press that allows them to have free money after a few minutes.

 

I think it's actually acceptable that leveling exclusively through Warzones or Flashpoints is less credit-profitable than leveling via Missions because you have alternative rewards for those activities.

 

I would honestly wager, if that the information for Quest Rewards available listed the Credit reward as well as the experience reward we'd find that the available quests per planet and total credit per exp far exceeds the expenses of leveling a character, I don't think you even need to level purely on Missions and eschew all other activities, but if you do some quests per level, you'll get a good amount of credits.

 

The money is out there, people aren't interested in getting it because it conflicts with their "play style" apparently, which I really think is because they've been spoiled by Slicing covering all of their questionable financial decisions.

 

You seem to be confusing "profit" with "covers expenses". If leveling a certain way doesn't cover "expenses" then I see a problem. The problem is that I, and others I've talked to, have found that whatever the particulars of our leveling experiences are, we often run into problems simply affording training, repairs, and upkeep of crewskills (NOT profit, simply leveling apace with character level) is too much to pay for without other credit-raising activities not related to leveling, or any other product other than "credits".

 

"Spoiled" is an incredibly relative concept. I think it's important to compare TOR only to itself and not "how other MMOs have done things".

 

I don't believe that I, or others I know, are simply "doing it wrong" in having to break away from the fun parts of the game to grind face on credits. I think there may simply be too much variance in income.