Shadysketchy's Tier List For SWTOR's Classes

[Englefield]

Pure DPS Classes are not viable compared to Hybrids, in a game with no Hybrid Taxes

 

Of course they are viable. All dps classes are as viable as all other dps specced classes.

[WarTornPanda]

I already did, in the list; but okay

 

Pure DPS Classes in a game with no hybrid taxes aren't viable

 

A Sniper DPS is somehow less valuable than an Assassin DPS? Provided that they are reasonably balanced, I don't see why it matters who is dealing damage as long as one class isn't dealing substantially less damage. That's a different issue altogether.

 

Edit: In fact, I would go so far as to say that hybrid DPS would be completely non-viable in a world where pure DPS classes do more damage. Disregarding possible utility, why would you bring a hybrid for anything other than healing or tanking when a pure DPS class will do more damage?

 

Keep in mind that I'm saying all this as a person with a Sniper main.

Edited December 31, 2011 by WarTornPanda

[flunkorg]

Not sure what OP was going for here. Maybe he just wants to see how many people don't have him on ignore yet.

 

Most already do.

 

I just wished it would also stop his threads from showing up as well.

[Doomsaga]

i just lost 10 I.Q. reading this

[Sohtaraz]

A Sniper DPS is somehow less valuable than an Assassin DPS? Provided that they are reasonably balanced, I don't see why it matters who is dealing damage as long as one class isn't dealing substantially less damage. That's a different issue altogether.

 

Usual rule of thumb is that melee damage is effected more by: AoE damage, Threat Spikes, Movement of boss, Line of sight and positioning.

 

These are all points you have to keep in mind as well when your discussing ranged dps classes.

[CupieFoxtail]

Pure DPS Classes are not viable compared to Hybrids, in a game with no Hybrid Taxes

 

I played WoW for three years as a shaman in a progression guild, never once was I told or asked to switch from DPS or healing.

Clearly you just aren't that good. I topped the charts every fight as effectively pure DPS, and consistently made the world top 100 for dps on a given boss for the class.

If I ever got asked by PuGs to dps and maybe switch to heals, I told them that if anyone was capable of outdpsing me, I would happily switch to heals.

 

It never happened. As one dps specc, for three years.

 

You can't put a tier list on something balanced like an MMO. Look at the precedent from WoW. The first guild to down the final boss of the most recent patch in a guild with no hybrid tax had 12 pure dps classes on the boss. THE TOP 12.

 

http://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2011/december/KINRaidersDmgMeter.jpg

 

The second guild to down the content(matter of strat, not dps) had 6 hybrids in the top 12 dps.

 

You are wrong, wrong, wrong. Dead wrong.

MMO's are balanced on specc by specc and class by class basis, not on hybrid vs. pure. That kind of game design died years ago.

 

Inb4 this is not WoW, that is the most readily available information from parsers, and we don't have a reason to believe that BW would balance differently than blizzard, outside of the game being possibly finer tuned.

 

You have NO idea what kind of sustained damage one class puts out vs. another class due to lack of combat logs, so your statements are based on outdated precedence and stupid generalizations.

[Angst]

As an Operative, I can personally tell you I have Never been beaten in a legit 1v1 match. I do however have a lot of experience with these kind of games and 1v1 pvp.

[Sohtaraz]

Wow has hybrid taxes so I dont know what the post above me is all about.

[WarTornPanda]

Wow has hybrid taxes so I dont know what the post above me is all about.

 

Yeah, as far as I knew, they had hybrid taxes. I remember Ghostcrawler saying that they wanted it to stay within 5%, but that hybrids shouldn't beat equally skilled/geared pure DPS classes. I could be wrong.

[CupieFoxtail]

Wow has hybrid taxes so I dont know what the post above me is all about.

 

http://stateofdps.com/

What hybrid tax?

There are not universally hybrid classes at the top. There are not universally pure dps classes at the top.

Please use recent facts, instead of something blizzard said that they stopped enforcing in their design policy years ago.

[CupieFoxtail]

Blizzard also said on the back of my cataclysm box that there would be more raids than ever before.

There are not.

But you would of course say that there were more raids, because blizzard said it and they never said otherwise amirite?

[WarTornPanda]

Blizzard also said on the back of my cataclysm box that there would be more raids than ever before.

There are not.

But you would of course say that there were more raids, because blizzard said it and they never said otherwise amirite?

 

Technically, even one more raid is more than ever before. Just saying...

[CupieFoxtail]

Technically, even one more raid is more than ever before. Just saying...

 

Wrath had 9 raids, 52 bosses.

Cata has 5 raids, 32 bosses.

The older expansions had even more raids and bosses.

Edited December 31, 2011 by CupieFoxtail

[Sohtaraz]

http://stateofdps.com/

What hybrid tax?

There are not universally hybrid classes at the top. There are not universally pure dps classes at the top.

Please use recent facts, instead of something blizzard said that they stopped enforcing in their design policy years ago.

 

I'm not going to go parse trough those fights individually but its a nice you listed a link to the sight for an overview.

 

Notice how you only mention Cata, they finally dropped the 10% off from druids and priests and it shows (Some other classes as well, but there are multiple reasons for this such as making buffs more universal etc.). Other then that it looks pritty damn normal taxed classes, shamans in particular since they are the defenition of hybrid classes and druids.

 

Mind you fury for example allways trough out wow's history has been a 'sponge' class such as combat rogues that benefit by far the most from heavely scaling buffs so without actually seeing the individual raid composition its very hard to actually tell how accurate reprisentation the avarage dps it is do to this phonomenon calling buffstacking, and movement combined with dps. Tho they try to get rid of it every instance that your required to have x ammount of y, and z ammount of w it still will keep going stacked on some encounters.

 

I'm not going to argue that the DPS avarage is far of from a 'reality' for raid composition but what I am stating that it still comes down what you have in the raid that determines the actual potential dps of the classes.

 

And you cannot compare SWTORS current combat system to WoW's refined combat system, and encounter mechanics when they are about 7 years apart do to them not looking at competition and living in an isolated hut in the forest.

[princey]

Wrath had 9 raids, 52 bosses.

Cata has 5 raids, 32 bosses.

The older expansions had even more raids and bosses.

 

He's talking cumulatively, but....yeah...*walks away*

[CupieFoxtail]

I'm not going to go parse trough those fights individually but its a nice you listed a link to the sight for an overview.

 

Notice how you only mention Cata, they finally dropped the 10% off from druids and priests and it shows (Some other classes as well, but there are multiple reasons for this such as making buffs more universal etc.). Other then that it looks pritty damn normal taxed classes, shamans in particular since they are the defenition of hybrid classes and druids.

 

Mind you fury for example allways trough out wow's history has been a 'sponge' class such as combat rogues that benefit by far the most from heavely scaling buffs so without actually seeing the individual raid composition its very hard to actually tell how accurate reprisentation the avarage dps it is do to this phonomenon calling buffstacking, and movement combined with dps. Tho they try to get rid of it every instance that your required to have x ammount of y, and z ammount of w it still will keep going stacked on some encounters.

 

I'm not going to argue that the DPS avarage is far of from a 'reality' for raid composition but what I am stating that it still comes down what you have in the raid that determines the actual potential dps of the classes.

 

And you cannot compare SWTORS current combat system to WoW's refined combat system, and encounter mechanics when they are about 7 years apart do to them not looking at competition and living in an isolated hut in the forest.

 

So, you just said that some hybrid classes did more damage than pure classes

And then you said that there was still a hybrid tax

:l

Your concessions are argument breaking; you should use sense and consider facts instead of just keeping steady by saying the exact same thing over and over

We're not talking class by class. Some classes are definitely weak. We're talking pure vs. hybrid being balanced, and because of that you CANNOT discount shadow priests, moonkins, and fury warriors for the sake of saying that shamans in general do low dps

 

If you consider current WoL's and think that there should still be a tier system based purely on hybrid vs. pure dps... then you're crazy

Edited December 31, 2011 by CupieFoxtail

[TangledByrd]

Unless the balance in the game is completely broken, tier lists are usually completely useless. While I doubt the two communities intermingle that much you should take a look at the fighting game community. Fighting games live and die by their balancing far more than any MMO I have ever played.

 

Their communities also go to ridiculous lengths to construct tier lists incorporating far more data and metrics than you have on offer in WoW, SWTOR, AoC or any other MMO that jumps to mind.

 

The end result is the same however, tier lists are pointless.

 

Learn your character, learn their strengths, more importantly learn their weaknesses.

 

Work on your strategy, work on your execution, stop trying to follow a cookie cutter rotation (combo, win routine) and LEARN TO ADAPT.

 

 

* As a side note as a lvl 32 Juggernaut on Tatooine I beat a lvl 39 Trooper who was being an arse and ganking. How? I kited the dishonourable sod and force pushed him off a cliff...

 

Strategy see?

 

Of course then I jumped on my speeder and ran, but that's not the point of the story.

[Raximillian]

I disagree with the sniper class. Sniper can do tremendous damage IF handled appropriately. It takes an extra degree of skill to play right, but when played right, it is a powerhouse.

 

I have not played a sith juggernaut, but my sister does play one. She's a good player, and she is having trouble dealing decent DPS. The class can tank fine, but there does seem to be something missing from it. Well, we just have to wait for BW to get some numbers in and plan accordingly. I hope they NEVER take what we say and act on it, but just the pure, hard numbers that they get from the game.

[Sohtaraz]

So, you just said that some hybrid classes did more damage than pure classes

And then you said that there was still a hybrid tax

:l

Your concessions are argument breaking; you should use sense and consider facts instead of just keeping steady by saying the exact same thing over and over

 

If you consider current WoL's and think that there should still be a tier system based purely on hybrid vs. pure dps... then you're crazy

 

Yes I did say some hybrid classes do more damage then pure classes, and then some suffer from hybrid taxes.

 

For example enhancement shamans have allways had a very low damage potential since they do both magic and melee damage, they get the most benefit from caster buffs but give out melee buffs so in stacked compositions they suffer from either or both lackings.

 

Mind you that wow used to have tanks and healers in the same classes such as feral, and they were very high up in wotlk in damage but allways 10% off. Nowdays you wont see a feral in top 10 damage meters unless your looking at singular damage becouse they are considered as a tank just as often as a kitten, if not even more.

 

 

Thats the reason why its hard to say anything from avarages when hybrid taxation is not about avarage damage its the "extra" damage you can pull off with it by using superior knowledge and skills. This is something no matter how much they try to get rid off they cannot remove from the game unless they redo all buffs from ground up and fix up some old class mechanics, yes they have balanced the playfield multiple times but at the end of the day it does come to the players and raid compesition, in wow the current metagame also allows dualclassed dps be more spesificly roled for example ranged that are better in moving or burst damage.

 

And when it comes to comparing WoL and then looking at the metagame of the game it's pritty clear they have an established metagame that allows actual balance actions to take place. This game dosn't even have combat logs to make baselines.

 

When your lacking both hybrid taxation and any benefits of being a pure dps class it really does come down to tier classes extremely quickly, wow fixed this with dualspecs and making 3 combat trees on a pure dps class behave difrently and have fundamental difrences (Not counting hunter, marksman and beastmastery are difrent entirely for example tho).

[Vaegaknight]

As an Operative, I can personally tell you I have Never been beaten in a legit 1v1 match. I do however have a lot of experience with these kind of games and 1v1 pvp.

 

I could pretty much tell you the same as a sniper.

[Wilsu_Addar]

All completely inaccurate information.

 

Snipers have the best single target DPS in the game. Makes them pretty viable.

 

BH tanks have best AoE threat, worst single target threat, and their cooldowns aren't that great.

 

Juggernaughts have better single target threat and amazing cooldowns. They will be the tank of choice for hard mode encounters where tanks are taking a ton of spike damage.

 

Equal gear, equal skill, the IA Medic will be the best healer. Right now it doesn't show because most people are too lazy to watch HoTs. When we get addons, watch how IA Medics start wrecking healing charts.

 

I wonder if the OP is purposely trying to make everyone hate him? He does realize no one respects anything he says, right? I'm pretty sure he spends more time posting on the forums than playing the game.

 

Oh, and inb4 "What does - W. mean?"

 

- W.

[Englefield]

I wonder if the OP is purposely trying to make everyone hate him? He does realize no one respects anything he says, right? I'm pretty sure he spends more time posting on the forums than playing the game.

 

 

No, I think it's just his attempt to become e-famous by keeping his name on the front page by talking crap constantly (and getting fools like us to respond ).

[CupieFoxtail]

Yes I did say some hybrid classes do more damage then pure classes, and then some suffer from hybrid taxes.

 

Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy

 

In fact,

The bad hybrids are bad because they are bad

The bad pures are bad because they are bad

The good hybrids are good because they are good

The good pures are good because they are good

 

There is no major intentional correlation just because a specc is a hybrid or a pure.

I assure you, the averaged averages are quite random

[Feskitt]

Updated 12/31/2011

Details below list

 

Tier 1) BH Mercenary, SI Sorcerer

Tier 2) BH Powertech, SI Assassin, IA Operative

Tier 3) SW Juggernaut

Tier 4) SW Marauder, IA Sniper

 

BH Mercenary - Healer/Ranged DPS with a self-replenishing casting Resource, that gets the Heaviest Armor in the game. I'm a little surprised this Class made it into the Release build in it's current state, but anyway, this is why you see so many Bounty Hunters

 

 

It does seem like lots of folks are jumping on the BH bandwagon based on what I saw in the Imperial Fleet today (and looking in the social window).

 

Here's a pic of me playing a BH via mods for KOTOR II back in the day. No jonny-come-lately bounty Hunter here.

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2011 by Feskitt

[Sohtaraz]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy

 

In fact,

The bad hybrids are bad because they are bad

The bad pures are bad because they are bad

The good hybrids are good because they are good

The good pures are good because they are good

 

There is no major intentional correlation just because a specc is a hybrid or a pure.

I assure you, the averaged averages are quite random

 

 

 

So your agument for my argument for WoW having several years to iron out hybrid taxation to be minimal and becoming player based, then adding in dualspec in order to blend hybrid taxation entirely amongst most popular classes....Comes down to players being bad and good?

 

Yes, modern day world of warcraft this is partly true, some unpopular classes unfortunately are not as lucky as all (retribution, enhancement shamans are the top 2 sufferers) but this all was _greatly_ improved after parsing and forum arguments started happening in end TBC->WoTLK (Steps to right directions, steps to wrong direction. Steps nontheless towards the goal)-> and wuala, evolution in cata.

 

Now were lacking all freatures required to make that transaction so by default: Yes hybrid taxes should be implemented so that theres an actual reason to play pure dps classes, or atleast allow them to have as much seperate gameplay style as a normal class.

 

 

If your assuming the timelined DPS charts of hybrid classes vs modern day DPS charts are the same as other classes your so far off from the trueth its not even funny.