Obi Wan and Darth Vader

[Arkire]

The Emporer also intentionally desinged Vaders suit to hamper and dull his abilitys. He was afraid of loosing everything he had and if Vader was given more mobility and freedom he would more than likely stripped that power from him. Had the fight between obi-wan and Vader continued it would eventually end very closely. Obi being old and unpracticed but still deadly and strong. vader adapting to his suit and more focused plus his natural for powers made him more than a contender. I think Obi may have won but time was not on his side. He would never escape the death star. Luke may have been caught and no one would be left to fight the Emporer himself. Unless Leia some how found her way to Yoda.

[Sabster]

The Emporer also intentionally desinged Vaders suit to hamper and dull his abilitys. He was afraid of loosing everything he had and if Vader was given more mobility and freedom he would more than likely stripped that power from him. .

I love how people make stuff up to fit their arguement. "Go out and hunt down Jedi; oh but I'm going to make it harder than normal on you...."

[darth_freefall]

The Emporer also intentionally desinged Vaders suit to hamper and dull his abilitys. He was afraid of loosing everything he had and if Vader was given more mobility and freedom he would more than likely stripped that power from him. Had the fight between obi-wan and Vader continued it would eventually end very closely. Obi being old and unpracticed but still deadly and strong. vader adapting to his suit and more focused plus his natural for powers made him more than a contender. I think Obi may have won but time was not on his side. He would never escape the death star. Luke may have been caught and no one would be left to fight the Emporer himself. Unless Leia some how found her way to Yoda.

 

That is the biggest load of bull i have read in awhile

 

Obi being old and unpracticed but still deadly and strong. vader adapting to his suit and more focused plus his natural for powers made him more than a contender.

 

Vader was not adapting in that fight, he had adapted long before then, and steadily improved.

 

The Emporer also intentionally desinged Vaders suit to hamper and dull his abilitys. He was afraid of loosing everything he had and if Vader was given more mobility and freedom he would more than likely stripped that power from him.

 

The emperor was disappointed that Vader was weak, that he could not achieve his full potential due to the suit, why would he then make him even weaker?

[Wolfninjajedi]

I love how people make stuff up to fit their arguement. "Go out and hunt down Jedi; oh but I'm going to make it harder than normal on you...."

 

Whats funny even if it was true, that just makes Vader in suit even more powerful because he is able to kill jedi masters and the like anyway.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[ozirizo]

Sorry. No. As much as I love obi Wan read my above. Vader learned patience

 

Yeah, because Siths are known because of their patience.

 

ROFL.

[Rhyltran]

Yeah, because Siths are known because of their patience.

 

ROFL.

 

Vader has. Care to prove me wrong? I'll wait.

 

There's also more proof that Sith have been known for their patience. Did you know the rule of two sith waited nearly 900 years in hiding? Apprentice, surpassing master, who teaches an apprentice, who surpasses a master. Nearly 900 years of this before enacting their revenge on the Jedi?

 

How about Marka Ragnos not wishing to attack the Republic because he knew they'd be defeated and that they weren't ready to do so?

 

What about how the Sith Emperor waited 300 years to attack the Republic directly with his Sith Empire? How about the sith waiting over 1300 years before that to attack the republic? The Sith have shown multiple times that they can be patient. So you can take your "ROFL" and actually learn a bit about the Sith.

 

P.S. I don't mean this post offensively. I just dislike how some people are quick to write off other's arguments without taking the time to do their own research. Just because most Sith are impatient doesn't mean that all Sith are impatient. I mean, heck, Bane taught not to kill needlessly and to only do things that would actually cause benefit. Doing things needlessly he found was a waste and only proved that the person in question was "stupid."

 

If there was a battle he couldn't win he simply wouldn't fight in it. That's patience. As I stated earlier on in the thread. Vader is much more patient in his later fights after revenge of the Sith. Even going so far as to figure out how his opponent works. Sometimes even let the person press on the attack. This was favorable against more agile opponents as he'd fight defensively, wear them down, and then press on the assault.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Rhyltran

[hauk]

Vader has. Care to prove me wrong? I'll wait.

 

There's also more proof that Sith have been known for their patience. Did you know the rule of two sith waited nearly 900 years in hiding? Apprentice, surpassing master, who teaches an apprentice, who surpasses a master. Nearly 900 years of this before enacting their revenge on the Jedi?

 

How about Marka Ragnos not wishing to attack the Republic because he knew they'd be defeated and that they weren't ready to do so?

 

What about how the Sith Emperor waited 300 years to attack the Republic directly with his Sith Empire? How about the sith waiting over 1300 years before that to attack the republic? The Sith have shown multiple times that they can be patient. So you can take your "ROFL" and actually learn a bit about the Sith.

 

Ozirizo just got owned

[Malefik]

It would have been Vader. Obi-wan only sacrificed himself because he couldn't defeat Vader. In RotJ, Obi-wan is dismayed when Luke says he can't kill his father, because he was their only hope of doing so. Ergo, he would have killed Vader is he could have.

 

That was Obi-wans's destiny. Luke was never ment to kill his father. Yoda told him the last thing he had to do to become a Jedi was "FACE Vader you must, only then will you be a Jedi" Yoda wasn't a master for nothing When Luke killed Vader in the cave Yoda told him he failed. " in you must go,your weapons you need them not" Vader brought balance to the force through his love for his son when he killed the Emp. Vaders redemption and sacrafice balanced the force. Or you could say that the Jedi"s show of emotion (Luke and Vader) balanced the force.

So story wise it had to be like that. In there prime it would have been a good fight though.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Malefik

[DoctorBeckett]

Let's look at it.... Obi-Wan vs Anakin (for all intents and purposes Darth Vader) 1 - knock down drag-out fight. Both were in their primes. Each other's equal. Yin to yang. Evenly matched on all levels. The only thing Anakin did that messed up his chances of defeating Obi-wan was jumping from that platform to the top of the hill. Had Obi-Wan missed, it may have gone like this:

 

 

 

 

Obi-Wan vs Anakin II - Both were old men (20ish years older) by the time the Death Star confrontation took place. The suit inhibited much of Anakin's abilities, sight and swordplay included. Thereby relying mainly on the dark side of The Force. Obi-Wan was stalling Anakin to allow Luke & crew to escape aboard The Falcon. He had no intention of coming out alive of the confrontation. "When you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." When Anakin struck down Obi-Wan he was surprised Obi-Wan vanished (thanks to Obi-Wan's training given by Yoda while in exile) when he tapped Obi-Wan's robe when it fell to the floor.

 

I'm sure Obi-Wan could still "bring it" if he needed to. But as I said, he was giving Luke and crew a chance to escape and was stalling Anakin.

[ObiQuiYett]

If Obi-wan's intentions were in favor of surviving the battle between him and Darth Vader on the Death Star, he would not have been caught.

 

He was sneaking around the Death Star, even with everyone on full alert after Leia's prison break, and no one caught him. If he had known that the Empire would have let Luke and the gang get away because they needed to follow the tracking device, perhaps he would not have seen that he didn't need to draw Darth Vader away with his sacrifice. He sends out those Force trembles to Vader in order to draw him into a battle he knows he cannot win.

 

Remember what Vader says, "His intentions are not to escape, I must face him alone."

[BrandonSM]

Let's look at it.... Obi-Wan vs Anakin (for all intents and purposes Darth Vader) 1 - knock down drag-out fight. Both were in their primes. Each other's equal. Yin to yang. Evenly matched on all levels. The only thing Anakin did that messed up his chances of defeating Obi-wan was jumping from that platform to the top of the hill. Had Obi-Wan missed, it may have gone like this:

 

 

 

Obi-Wan vs Anakin II - Both were old men (20ish years older) by the time the Death Star confrontation took place. The suit inhibited much of Anakin's abilities, sight and swordplay included. Thereby relying mainly on the dark side of The Force. Obi-Wan was stalling Anakin to allow Luke & crew to escape aboard The Falcon. He had no intention of coming out alive of the confrontation. "When you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." When Anakin struck down Obi-Wan he was surprised Obi-Wan vanished (thanks to Obi-Wan's training given by Yoda while in exile) when he tapped Obi-Wan's robe when it fell to the floor.

 

I'm sure Obi-Wan could still "bring it" if he needed to. But as I said, he was giving Luke and crew a chance to escape and was stalling Anakin.

 

Vader was in prime in suit.

[DoctorBeckett]

According to "The Rise Of Darth Vader"... Anakin thought the suit was so poorly constructed, he could barely function. I'm sure there were adaptations and more training to overcome such inhibitions, but for the most part the suit design was a symbol to send a message to foes. There wasn't that much desire to design a new one. Anakin worked with what he had. That's why the Death Star confrontation looked like 2 old men fighting (story-line wise).

 

In actuality, the actors on the set at the time of filming, were told to hold the sabers with 2 hands 'like they were holding Excalibur." by George. This was before canon was re-written that it was ok to hold them one handed.

Edited January 6, 2012 by DoctorBeckett

[Wolfninjajedi]

According to "The Rise Of Darth Vader"... Anakin thought the suit was so poorly constructed, he could barely function. I'm sure there were adaptations and more training to overcome such inhibitions, but for the most part the suit design was a symbol to send a message to foes. There wasn't that much desire to design a new one.

 

There actually was an opportunity for a new suit to be designed, but it was too risky as the transfer process he could die so it was abandoned. But it was there.

[DoctorBeckett]

But by the time the Death Star confrontation happened, the suit had cemented Anakin's reputation of being a straight out fear mongering killer. Why change what works? Edited January 6, 2012 by DoctorBeckett

[Rhyltran]

According to "The Rise Of Darth Vader"... Anakin thought the suit was so poorly constructed, he could barely function. I'm sure there were adaptations and more training to overcome such inhibitions, but for the most part the suit design was a symbol to send a message to foes. There wasn't that much desire to design a new one. Anakin worked with what he had. That's why the Death Star confrontation looked like 2 old men fighting (story-line wise).

 

In actuality, the actors on the set at the time of filming, were told to hold the sabers with 2 hands 'like they were holding Excalibur." by George. This was before canon was re-written that it was ok to hold them one handed.

 

In Rise of Lord Vader it also states that he managed to get around most of his suit's weaknesses. Also by the time of the battle of the death star there was quite a few modifications done to his suit. Vader in the suit was still more powerful than the Jedi masters pre-trilogy. The various comics and books about Vader make that clear. Force unleashed even more so.

[DoctorBeckett]

In Rise of Lord Vader it also states that he managed to get around most of his suit's weaknesses. Also by the time of the battle of the death star there was quite a few modifications done to his suit. Vader in the suit was still more powerful than the Jedi masters pre-trilogy. The various comics and books about Vader make that clear. Force unleashed even more so.

 

 

 

Sources please..

[Rhyltran]

Sources please..

 

Sources? force unleashed. He upgraded his suit to become resistant to force lightning. As for his combat abilities? I'll provide quotes. Not to mention, one I don't have access to, is when he fought 8 jedi and managed to murder nearly all of them. Destroyed a jedi master among those 8 without his lightsaber.

 

For him getting over his suit's weaknesses in rise of lord vader? I'll find those quotes for you. In the meantime. It's been stated by Lucas in the commentary that Vader is 80% as strong as Sidious. Here is a quote from Rise of Lord vader. Paper back novel page 319-320.

 

"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begin."

 

"More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."

 

Right here it shows that currently Sidious fears Vader. That he's a threat to his mastery of the dark side. Just prior the book was talking about Sidious views on the rule of two and how he remembered when he killed his master. Vader is a threat to him. He's THAT powerful but Sidious feels in the future. He won't be. He'll become so powerful that there wouldn't be a need for another apprentice. That time hasn't come yet. First it states he's becoming more powerful now that he's finally tapping deep into the dark side and then it states in the future he won't need to fear him.

 

 

"Time and again the two Jedi attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate the Jedi strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed."

 

"She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems."

 

"Calling on the Force, Starstone fell on him in a fury, striking wildly and repeatedly, and with anger. Moments into her attack she understood that Vader was merely allowing her to vent, as the Temple's swordmaster had often done with his students, allowing them to believe that they were driving him back, when in fact he was simply encouraging them to wear themselves out before disarming them in one rapid motion."

"He flicked his blade, precisely, economically, forcing her back and back..."

 

page 278.

 

Page 277

 

Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade."

 

This was against, admittedly, two skilled duelists. He was also facing Starstone, Kulka, Forte, Jambe, Nam, and Klossi. None of them could match him. Against Roan Shryne, he slashed at his legs at one point and Vader leapt over his blow, twisted in the air, and landed behind him.

 

From force unleashed..

 

The apprentice crouched facedown in the snow, surrounded by rubble. His breath came in agonized, short gasps, but he was grateful for each one. He should be dead. That blow should have killed anyone. The fact that he was breathing testified to the one mistake his Master had done.

He had been rebuilt tougher than before.

 

Vader casually tossed him toward the icy cliff.

 

He though he was ready -and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.

A simple double stroke, up then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrist and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a Telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides...

 

Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.

The apprentice vowed not to give him one...

 

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near...

 

Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith Lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath. [...] The Dark Lord was instantly on his feet...

 

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the Force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

 

Note that the apprentice had defeated multiple Jedi masters himself, was a power house in the force, and was extremely agile. If you want more sources. Go ahead. But it's obvious. Vader was by far one of the most powerful Sith. Even in his suit. Even Sidious regarded him as a threat.

[BrandonSM]

Sources? force unleashed. He upgraded his suit to become resistant to force lightning. As for his combat abilities? I'll provide quotes. Not to mention, one I don't have access to, is when he fought 8 jedi and managed to murder nearly all of them. Destroyed a jedi master among those 8 without his lightsaber.

 

For him getting over his suit's weaknesses in rise of lord vader? I'll find those quotes for you. In the meantime. It's been stated by Lucas in the commentary that Vader is 80% as strong as Sidious. Here is a quote from Rise of Lord vader. Paper back novel page 319-320.

 

"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begin."

 

"More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."

 

Right here it shows that currently Sidious fears Vader. That he's a threat to his mastery of the dark side. Just prior the book was talking about Sidious views on the rule of two and how he remembered when he killed his master. Vader is a threat to him. He's THAT powerful but Sidious feels in the future. He won't be. He'll become so powerful that there wouldn't be a need for another apprentice. That time hasn't come yet. First it states he's becoming more powerful now that he's finally tapping deep into the dark side and then it states in the future he won't need to fear him.

 

 

"Time and again the two Jedi attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate the Jedi strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed."

 

"She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems."

 

"Calling on the Force, Starstone fell on him in a fury, striking wildly and repeatedly, and with anger. Moments into her attack she understood that Vader was merely allowing her to vent, as the Temple's swordmaster had often done with his students, allowing them to believe that they were driving him back, when in fact he was simply encouraging them to wear themselves out before disarming them in one rapid motion."

"He flicked his blade, precisely, economically, forcing her back and back..."

 

page 278.

 

Page 277

 

Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade."

 

This was against, admittedly, two skilled duelists. He was also facing Starstone, Kulka, Forte, Jambe, Nam, and Klossi. None of them could match him. Against Roan Shryne, he slashed at his legs at one point and Vader leapt over his blow, twisted in the air, and landed behind him.

 

From force unleashed..

 

The apprentice crouched facedown in the snow, surrounded by rubble. His breath came in agonized, short gasps, but he was grateful for each one. He should be dead. That blow should have killed anyone. The fact that he was breathing testified to the one mistake his Master had done.

He had been rebuilt tougher than before.

 

Vader casually tossed him toward the icy cliff.

 

He though he was ready -and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.

A simple double stroke, up then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrist and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a Telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides...

 

Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.

The apprentice vowed not to give him one...

 

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near...

 

Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith Lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath. [...] The Dark Lord was instantly on his feet...

 

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the Force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

 

Note that the apprentice had defeated multiple Jedi masters himself, was a power house in the force, and was extremely agile. If you want more sources. Go ahead. But it's obvious. Vader was by far one of the most powerful Sith. Even in his suit. Even Sidious regarded him as a threat.

 

 

You've been sourced!

[DoctorBeckett]

Apparently... I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong... I tip my hat to you.

[Rhyltran]

Apparently... I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong... I tip my hat to you.

 

It's alright. I notice many write off Vader from what they see in the movies. However, the problem with that is the time the movies take place. Fights weren't choreographed the way they are now. Things are more flashy and with technology you can do more with fight scenes these days. Not only that but in both Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi Vader was severely holding back.

 

I mean, to use the dark side properly you need to use hate. Vader couldn't hate Luke. Luke called him out on it in return of the Jedi. "You didn't kill me then you won't kill me now." and "I can feel the good in you." he could sense that he was struggling with himself. This wasn't allowing him to properly battle and in the end it's what gets Sidious killed. Vader couldn't kill his own son.

 

In the Jedi Academy Trilogy Luke comments that if Vader really wanted him dead. He'd be dead. It wouldn't have even been much of a fight but that's just it. Vader didn't. If Luke was just any other Jedi at that level. It'd have probably been over in seconds. Despite this it's explained in the novelization that Luke wasn't some weakling either. By return of the Jedi he was a full fledged Jedi Knight but that doesn't make him a master either.

 

Vader has also been shown in comics to go through extreme means to defeat powerful enemies too. Such as impaling himself to kill his opponent. Being mostly machine enables him to perform maneuvers he normally wouldn't be able to use. Also being mostly machine his strength was inhuman making countering him hard. In the fight I listed above with his apprentice.. his apprentice admits that he was rebuilt tougher. Even so he nearly has his arm dislocated from parrying a direct blow from Vader.

 

Against Roan Shryne in Rise of Lord Vader he explains from blocking a direct blow that it almost knocked his saber from his grip and it felt as if his arm was about to break. What Vader lost in agility he gained in durability and strength. His mastery of multiple forms and his experience in killing Jedi also enabled him to deal with opponents of varying styles and abilities. As stated, if it wasn't from Mustafar he would have been unstoppable but he was definitely no slouch. Vader could hang with some of the best Sith Lords in history.

[BlameTheInnocent]

As much as I love Obi Wan and as much as he's my favorite Jedi.. Obi Wan would lose.

 

I don't know. Vader was weaker in the force when most of his body was destroyed by Obiwan. Though I guess an Old Obi- Wan wouldn't be a mtach for Darth Vader XD

 

When Obi-Wan was killed, he stayed in the Force as a Force Ghost (from which you know if you have played the Sith Inquisitor story).

[Wolfninjajedi]

I don't know. Vader was weaker in the force when most of his body was destroyed by Obiwan. Though I guess an Old Obi- Wan wouldn't be a mtach for Darth Vader XD

 

When Obi-Wan was killed, he stayed in the Force as a Force Ghost (from which you know if you have played the Sith Inquisitor story).

 

Nice necro there, but no he wasn't weaker in the force. He was limited, but not weaker.

[Captain_Zone]

No. He barely beat Anakin, in fact he was losing 90%. And Vader wasnt in his prime at that time. Vader was in his prime in the suit.

 

Obi-Wan was an expert illusionist in the prequels. He always gave the impression that he was losing in order to lull his opponents into a false sense of security. He taught Anakin, and Anakin STILL fell for it on Mustafar!

 

Obi-Wan knew the lost form of Trollesu, and used it in both the Grievous and Anakin fights. We heard "Well hello there!" but Grievous heard "Sup, nub?"

[Aximand]

Obi-Wan was an expert illusionist in the prequels. He always gave the impression that he was losing in order to lull his opponents into a false sense of security. He taught Anakin, and Anakin STILL fell for it on Mustafar!

 

Obi-Wan knew the lost form of Trollesu, and used it in both the Grievous and Anakin fights. We heard "Well hello there!" but Grievous heard "Sup, nub?"

 

Trollesu. Lololololol.

[BlameTheInnocent]

Nice necro there, but no he wasn't weaker in the force. He was limited, but not weaker.

 

Same thing to me. Darth Vader wasn't as powerful as Anakin in the Force but he was stronger in physical power.