Clarification on SWTOR's Development

[cannibithobbal]

8 hours ago, Kiquju said:

It is like if in the middle of a movie everyone was asked to stop and read a novel/book.

Just want to pull this out and comment because YES, omg.  This, this is such a good analogy.

As someone with ADHD who can't focus well on reading and needs entertainment more immersive that feels rewarding for my brain to stay focused on it, switching from a fully immersive game where my brain is fully engaged (the description of the voiced dialogue line being your "reward" for choosing a certain thing on the dialogue wheel is SO accurate, especially to my ADHD brain, like omg) to suddenly scenes where I have to read tons of text and it doesn't feel immersive and my character isn't even involved, and I have no voiced lines as a reward for making my choice, my brain literally drops off and I lose all interest in what is happening, like I suddenly want to do... anything else.

It really is like suddenly switching mediums. 

And for me, it's suddenly switching mediums to one which my brain specifically is not built for engagement with.  So going from fully immersive voiced game with action to those totally static black bar scenes, it feels like skipping along having a good time and then running into a brick wall 🫠

Edited June 30 by cannibithobbal

[wwefarming]

Il y a 21 heures, davidfreddie a dit :

Even some of the german and french players have spoken out and said they would rather have fully voiced English instead of KOTOR-style cutscenes

As a frenchie, no I don't want them to get rid of the french (nor German) translations because just like all of you in english, I'm attached to the french VAs who does an outstanding work to give life to our characters.

But I'm gonna speak objectively here, in the hypothetical scenario they stop supporting FR/DE translations, do you really think they will go back to fully voiced content but in english only? You know, when a company starts this kind of cost cutting measures, it rarely if ever go back to what it was before, especially when in this case they mentioned they started to do more KOTOR scenes because the SWTOR voiced scenes take more time and pressure to make while trying to sell us these scenes as something with more "conversational depth". So the most realistic scenario if they stop supporting the FR/DE translations is that they will just continue the mix between SWTOR and KOTOR cutscenes but in english only and no one would gain anything from this, german and french VAs would lose a paycheck and us players still wouldn't get a fully voiced experience no matter the language.

[meddani]

16 hours ago, eabevella said:

How many non-english speaking people are playing the english version because they don't use german and french?

i'm german and i use the english version, in fact i do this with all of my games.

i don't like hearing my native language in games (movies are fine), idk why lol.

getting rid of the german dub wouldn't bother me at all.

[eabevella]

5 hours ago, meddani said:

i'm german and i use the english version, in fact i do this with all of my games.

i don't like hearing my native language in games (movies are fine), idk why lol.

getting rid of the german dub wouldn't bother me at all.

I do the same with all the media with dubs.

It's just most of the time the dubbing is just not the same as the original, not to mention a lot of the times the translation is just off.

A bit of side note: It's also an interesting fact that countries like german and japan use dubs for foreign movies. Here in Taiwan all the foreign movies are in their original languages, we are very used to reading subtitles, it's just the default of all movie, including the mandarin-speaking one (having subtitles as default is way more friendly for deaf or hearing impaired people, I wonder why it's not a thing in movie theater in western countries that presumably care more about such things). Only Disney/Pixar animated movies will get special mandarin dubbing because it's "for children".

[EnbyDisaster_]

On 6/28/2024 at 12:38 PM, phalczen said:

I have many thoughts, but I did want to address these two points.

First, I don't think anyone chooses to stick with this game primarily because those style cutscenes evokes nostalgia of KOTOR.  Logically, if the vast majority of players would, in a resource-rich scenario, prefer fully voiced cutscenes over those style cutscenes, the number of folks angry and upset that they have more scenes fully voiced, or even just a more immersive UI, seems like an awfully small minority.  There may be a much larger percentage of people who like having more choice in possible responses, or want more content if it comes at the expense of full voice acting.  However, using KOTOR-nostalgia as an excuse for not making any improvements to the KOTOR-inspired cutscene system seems ill-advised.

Second, I do not recall any 7.5-related KOTOR-style cutscenes that had more than 5 options.  How feasible would it be to have those scenes unvoiced by player character VAs, but full screen (no blackbars) and the requisite number of options on the conversation wheel as in traditional/OG cutscenes?  Is it even possible to add more choices on those wheels?  My guess is that its not possible to have more than 3 answers per wheel, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Definitely agree with your first point, I'd personally prefer a lack of updated textures and stuff like that if it meant we would get voiced lines for all the main story quests. This is my first MMO, and I loved hearing my little guys chitchat with everyone else, so it sucks not having that any more. Someone else said this, but I really do think the devs would find that the people who would get upset about not continuing the KOTOR-style scenes are the minority, based on these threads and in-game chatter.

To your second, I do think with the spacing, especially for players who prefer clicking to keys, having five options on the wheel they use for dialogue choices is something that isnt particularly feasible? Still doesn't change that those could be voiced lines though

[icrizis]

If I wanted to play Kotor out of nostalgia or for any other reason I wouldn't be playing SWTOR, for me Swtor is the improved evolution of Kotor, and regressing and taking away our voices using this excuse is an insult and a lack of consideration for us the players.

I have been a subscriber to this game for two years and I love my character, I love his tone of voice, the way he threatens his enemies, the humor he responds to Darth Baras, and, if you punish me by taking that away from him , this game will no longer be the same for me, and with that I will move on to a new one.

 

Since I don't want that to happen, I have a suggestion that would bring a lot of players, and with their arrival, a lot of money: translation of the game into Portuguese, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, maybe even Turkish or Egyptian

keep the voices in English, but put the option for subtitles in other languages.

in my country, we think that, if the developers are not interested in putting the subtitles in our language, they shouldn't wait for our time and money either.

[psikofunkster]

Guys guys, accept the state of the game once and for all, they are in low budget, new operations for example will never happen again (IMO). The new content  they are delivering are things they can do right now like dating companions or besi and that's all.

Edited July 6 by psikofunkster

[LJ_Gibbs]

They can always quit doing the silly side stuff and get more story stuff out?

We get 2 hours every 4 months... how about an hour every 2 months?

[FlatTax]

18 hours ago, psikofunkster said:

Guys guys, accept the state of the game once and for all, they are in low budget, new operations for example will never happen again (IMO). The new content  they are delivering are things they can do right now like dating companions or besi and that's all.

It's worse than that.

Bessi represents a new game system that people are deeply unhappy with. It feels gated like mobile-game progression. Surprisingly, it debuted unmonetized. Perhaps to normalize the new system's mechanics.

I'm worried the next major patch will sell (or, more likely, only rent) us a solution, as would be consistent with what I can only call recent cash-in content.

Cash-in content is worse than maintenance mode; it actively lowers the game's quality.

PREDICTION:

• I suspect all future companions will be via the Venture system, and progression will be heavily monetized
• To prevent reliance on old companions, Venture companions will become functionally superior

Edited July 7 by FlatTax
Add a prediction!

[cannibithobbal]

2 hours ago, FlatTax said:

PREDICTION:

• I suspect all future companions will be via the Venture system, and progression will be heavily monetized
• To prevent reliance on old companions, Venture companions will become functionally superior

ngl, I seriously doubt this.  But even if you are right this is pretty much a moot point as I would wager a good 90+% of players play with the companions they love the most and not just the ones with the highest stats in combat (other than in the most niche of circumstances).  Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think so, because if so I'd see no one running around with any comp but Shae and Z0-0M lmao and that is obviously not the case.

[psikofunkster]

3 hours ago, FlatTax said:

It's worse than that.

Bessi represents a new game system that people are deeply unhappy with. It feels gated like mobile-game progression. Surprisingly, it debuted unmonetized. Perhaps to normalize the new system's mechanics.

I'm worried the next major patch will sell (or, more likely, only rent) us a solution, as would be consistent with what I can only call recent cash-in content.

Cash-in content is worse than maintenance mode; it actively lowers the game's quality.

PREDICTION:

• I suspect all future companions will be via the Venture system, and progression will be heavily monetized
• To prevent reliance on old companions, Venture companions will become functionally superior

It's already monetized kind of (you need to be a sub), but even being a f sub its a pain the progression.

I'm ok about doing dailies but you develops don't abuse...

Edited July 7 by psikofunkster

[Traceguy]

On 6/28/2024 at 11:00 AM, EricMusco said:

Understood on this feedback but this also isn’t a simple change as this is fundamentally how these scenes were designed

It's your job. Sometimes you have to actually "do the work". You can't just shelve it because you don't feel like it. The NPCs speak perfectly fine. There's no reason you can't extend the scenes to include PC voices. If that's not going to work, throw the KOTOR dialogue system in the trash can and design another "simple" cinematic that is compatible with PC voices.

 

[cannibithobbal]

2 hours ago, Traceguy said:

design another "simple" cinematic that is compatible with PC voices.

Simple cinematic style compatible with PC voices: class story/companion convo style.  🫠

I feel like this just can't be pointed out too many times tbh: a simple voiced cinematic style already exists in SWTOR.  The devs don't even need to design anything new.  If resources on the devs to create the complicated modern SWTOR cinematic animations is the only roadblock and affording voice acting is not a factor, give us those old style SWTOR cutscenes.  They are very very simply animated (compared to the KOTOR scenes, adding lip sync and dialogue wheel and removing black bars would basically be the only differences) but are voiced and would match the visual style of the scenes around them and feel like they belong. 

Our character just suddenly moving around less and having more basic camera angles (in a basic talking scene no less) would not be a jarring change compared to the fully cinematic scenes.  Cutting back and forth to scenes that are styled like a totally different game as it is now?  that's jarring.

It's like if you were playing, oh idk, Horizon Zero Dawn, and suddenly when Aloy went to talk to someone the cutscene looked like one from, say, Monkey Island.  Monkey Island is a very nostalgic game for those who played it.  But having old school point and click adventure style cutscenes in the middle of the story in a modern voiced, cinematic game would be super jarring and it would make no sense.  Obviously that's a very extreme example, but that's essentially how switching to the style of KOTOR feels in SWTOR.  They're totally different games.  Their styles do not mesh, and one is way more modern styled than the other.  (Also, important to note: some of us have 0 nostalgia for KOTOR anyway because we never played it.)  Just because KOTOR is set in the same in-game universe as SWTOR doesn't make it any less egregious than the Horizon/Monkey Island example IMO.

Edited July 8 by cannibithobbal

[Traceguy]

The KOTOR nostalgia was fine in 2015, when KOTFE first used it. Now it's old and abused.

[SteveTheCynic]

3 hours ago, Traceguy said:

It's your job.

It's not actually *Eric's* job, but point taken.   <<== I'm yanking your chain.

3 hours ago, Traceguy said:

Sometimes you have to actually "do the work". You can't just shelve it because you don't feel like it.

No, but they *can* shelve it until they have e.g. built a way to accommodate five choices in a single wheel on the old system.  (Yes, some of the Ord and Hutta conversation points have five options.  Not seventeen, like one of the choices when you're recruiting Qyzen Fess, but not just three, either.)

From an on-screen presentation point of view, the obvious(1) way is to adapt the approach BioWare used for Dragon Age: Inquisition,(2) where there are options all round the wheel.  I think that would go reasonably easily (subject to my normal adverse commentary about armchair developers) from a visual point of view to go up to three-right-plus-two-left making five without otherwise changing e.g. the size of the wheel.

3 hours ago, Traceguy said:

The NPCs speak perfectly fine. There's no reason you can't extend the scenes to include PC voices. If that's not going to work, throw the KOTOR dialogue system in the trash can and design another "simple" cinematic that is compatible with PC voices.

The cost of writing and translating and recording the extra player character lines would be a reason to not do it (it's a "won't" reason rather than a "can't" reason), but it's not really a very convincing reason.

(1) Um.  It's obvious to me, anyway.

(2) I cite DA:I because it's the only DA game I've played any of.

[Traceguy]

6 minutes ago, SteveTheCynic said:

No, but they *can* shelve it until they have e.g. built a way to accommodate five choices in a single wheel

I was referring to Eric saying it's not possible to have voiced player characters in the KOTOR styled dialogue.

[SteveTheCynic]

2 minutes ago, Traceguy said:

I was referring to Eric saying it's not possible to have voiced player characters in the KOTOR styled dialogue.

He *said* that it's not a simple change, not that it's impossible.

[Solo-Jo]

On 6/28/2024 at 11:00 AM, EricMusco said:

My character isn’t voiced in KOTOR scenes - Understood on this feedback but this also isn’t a simple change as this is fundamentally how these scenes were designed (without the PC speaking). Still, feedback heard.

Then stop using these! It is pretty clear from the feed back that it is not welcomed or wanted by your customers.

 

And while I am here, stop forcing temp companions on me, I have companions, the companions I want to play thru the story with, companions that I have spent a lot of time and resources on maxing out. If you have to have a temp companion for stroy reasons then make them secondary ones like the story flashpoint bot.

[DarthNillard]

Talk about a thread backfiring, yowzers!!!!

I tapped out on this convo a few weeks ago, but I'm bored on a long conference call so here I am catching up.  But all the Biosword folks are doing at this point is making it worse by responding to what essentially was a bag of excuses with additional, smaller bags of excuses.  Please keep 1 big thing in mind: you must be a sub to even post on these forums.  So every single person posting on here is a current, paying customer.  OUR FEEDBACK IS THE MOST IMPORTANT!!!

[SteveTheCynic]

58 minutes ago, DarthNillard said:

Please keep 1 big thing in mind: you must be a sub to even post on these forums

As written here, this isn't true any more.  Non-subs may post in either New Player Help or New Player Help/Introductions, and also General Discussion/Bug Reports.  But nowhere else, including General Discussion (where this thread is).

[Pirana]

2 hours ago, DarthNillard said:

Talk about a thread backfiring, yowzers!!!!

I tapped out on this convo a few weeks ago, but I'm bored on a long conference call so here I am catching up.  But all the Biosword folks are doing at this point is making it worse by responding to what essentially was a bag of excuses with additional, smaller bags of excuses.  Please keep 1 big thing in mind: you must be a sub to even post on these forums.  So every single person posting on here is a current, paying customer.  OUR FEEDBACK IS THE MOST IMPORTANT!!!

This is no longer accurate. I've only been subbed to this game a couple of months this year, that's it, and I've never lost posting privileges.

[TonyTricicolo]

Correct, I am currently unsubbed and as you can see I'm still posting.

[BulbulusTheGreat]

On 6/28/2024 at 10:35 PM, felleto said:

Unless, you think our feedback is indeed irrelevant (which you have demonstrated with your actions) and you basically want us (veteran players, mid-aged dads) gone so you may cater to a new audience. An audience that is fine with KOTOR conversations and Cartel market items inspired by the newest Disney + show in the market. Maybe, you want us gone because we remember what the game used to be and what it could have been. If that is the case, It truly saddens me. 

As George Lucas once said (paraphrasing here) The fear of loss leads to anger. Once we have something we are afraid of losing it. We the player base may be angry, and we might be angry because we are afraid of losing this beloved game. 
 

so just becuse im 24, means im not as "true" player as you, want low tier KOTOR scenes instead of hearing my toon speak, want to consume disney trash and don't care for the story? im sorry, but thats wrong, i joined in early 2022 and main reason i care about this game has always been the story, characters and quality, and i barely ever look at CM, you know giving us inspirational lucas quotes and telling devs to take your opinion as something relevant while also thinking some others shouldn't be based on their age is pretty silly, for the record i agree with most of what you said, but this generalization and unecessary targeting of specific groups of players based on nothing but their age kinda squandered your entire paragraph.

[Danevol]

I'm new in swtor and to be honest, I only came here to play the solo story, so I don't know how things are here with the mmo aspects. But... Yeah, when my character just went silent in the main storyline - it just broke my heart. Like for example the moment when pc is interrogated by the faction council about the situation with Shae and Mando. And it was so weird when my character just stood there and...say nothing. As a new player, it put me off. I'm fine with my character not talking in Lane Vizla's quests, even with the silent pc they were still interesting. I'm fine with my character not talking in the Manaan and Voss lines, though honestly those quests were horribly boring.
I understand that it's about limited resources. I appreciate the work that has to be done to create all those cinematic scenes. And I love it. I like action, I like when my jk uses force like throwing a turret at enemies on Mek-Sha, that's great. But when that kind of action is interrupted by kotor-style dialog, it's not great..... It really spoils the immersion in the story quite a bit. 

I replayed KotOR this year. KotOR has a great story line, but a lot of the technical stuff is hopelessly outdated. I'm not sure it's worth using technical solutions from a game from twenty years ago. And I don't think it's appropriate for a modern game like swtor. Also... I think the voiced main character is one of the main features of swtor. I've played enough mmo's where the main character was just a... silent, useless piece. A swtor character is almost a personality. I love my jk's voice, but when his voice take away it's.... disappointing.

I've heard enough phrases used multiple times in class storylines. I'm not versed in such things, but maybe there's a way to utilize the already existing voice-bank and facial animation... Because if the choice is between that and a mute character, I'd rather my jk say "jedi's limit's always be put to the test" for the hundredth time.

[DarthNillard]

22 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

As written here, this isn't true any more.  Non-subs may post in either New Player Help or New Player Help/Introductions, and also General Discussion/Bug Reports.  But nowhere else, including General Discussion (where this thread is).

 

21 hours ago, Pirana said:

This is no longer accurate. I've only been subbed to this game a couple of months this year, that's it, and I've never lost posting privileges.

 

Limited areas to post for non-subs is barely a step above not being able to post.  The sentiment behind my post remains: the people who post "HERE" (the main forums) are your paying customers and should be listened to first!!!!!!!

All of this is irrelevant anyway, as Biosword has been showing us for 10+ years that they do not listen to our feedback.  They think telling us repeatedly "we hear and appreciate your feedback" counts for something.  IT. DOES. NOT!  Your constant actions year over year show the truth....