Problem with Dark Harbinger Hood (Hair Enabled)

[HSFKSN]

Hello, I was really excited like everyone else when we saw that the new Dark Harbinger Armor Set would have a hood that showed hair. I was getting ready to buy it just a few minutes ago, but, when I previewed the hood with hair enabled, I was disappointed to see that the hair I have for my main clips through the back of the hood. I know this is probably an issue that Broadsword is aware of and expects players to work around, but it is just such a good looking armor piece--especially when paired with the hair my main has currently--that I can't help but ask this to be fixed. I am sure there are a lot of people who also appreciate this set but won't be able to enjoy it due to this bug. 

If you could just code the piece so that the back half of the hair model is no longer showing, that would be awesome.

 

Edited May 29 by HSFKSN

[Estelindis]

This is probably not a "code" issue.  The hair is probably one 3D mesh without any ability to turn parts of it on and off.  I suspect that this hood has been provided as-is, for hairstyles that work with it, without the expectation that every hairstyle will work.

[supertimtaf]

7 minutes ago, Estelindis said:

This is probably not a "code" issue.  The hair is probably one 3D mesh without any ability to turn parts of it on and off.  I suspect that this hood has been provided as-is, for hairstyles that work with it, without the expectation that every hairstyle will work.

Most definitely a yes to this. But this is then a big issue because it doesn't mention "will not work on every hairstyles".
Usually in games with hoods to hide the hairs, the game provides two models on every hairstyle. One with hood, one without. That way, when you equip a hood or a hat, the game swaps your hairs for the "hat version". In this game they doesn't.

So Broadsword is making you pay for a hood, that doesn't work with hairstyles that you needed to pay real money for. Ngl this is pretty bad.

Doesn't work on this paid hairstyle too.

@CommunityTeam Is that planned to be fixed, or is that a feature 😕 If broken for half of the hairstyles, maaaaybe consider removing the mention "with hairs" 😕

[Estelindis]

2 minutes ago, supertimtaf said:

Usually in games with hoods to hide the hairs, the game provides two models on every hairstyle. One with hood, one without. That way, when you equip a hood or a hat, the game swaps your hairs for the "hat version". In this game they doesn't.

I feel like this is actually an exception compared to how they've handled hoods lately.  For a lot of recent cartel armour, they've made two versions of the chest: hood up and hood down.  I guess they feel like, with the hood now part of the helmet model in this outfit, people can just choose not to wear the helmet.  But then they miss out on the mouth-covering mask, so it's not a perfect solution.

I suppose none of the other hood situations are perfect solutions either - but this time they chose different options.

[supertimtaf]

Just now, Estelindis said:

I suppose none of the other hood situations are perfect solutions either - but this time they chose different options.

True indeed. Still a bit weird that we're ten years in and that there's no plan to make an actual system for hairs to be displayed under a hat. I know that it's basically asking to redo every hair in a "hat" form, but maybe using the way ESO has been handling things (when you equip a hat and your hairstyle clips, it'll replace your hair with a hairstyle made specifically for this hat).

As an example with images because that may help :

Hat 1 doesn't clip with current hairs, keeps them active.


Hat 2 clips with current hairs, replaces them with a specific hairstyle that doesn't clip, usually the most bland and simple possible.

 

Since both games use the same engine as a basis, I think that it's definitely something possible that they should work towards instead of just leaving it as "well too bad :)" because that's definitely not looking good on *paid* items.

[HSFKSN]

Quote

2 hours ago, Estelindis said:

This is probably not a "code" issue.  The hair is probably one 3D mesh without any ability to turn parts of it on and off.  I suspect that this hood has been provided as-is, for hairstyles that work with it, without the expectation that every hairstyle will work.

 

I understand that, but almost none of the female hair customizations in game fit within that hood. I checked on my main, hoping I would find another hairstyle I like that would fit under the hood. I know players can just "choose not to wear the helmet," but why would the devs want players to not buy their new armor sets? The whole point of making new, high quality sets is so that players want them, otherwise they'd just be wasting our time and theirs.

In any case, I still think its something that should be changed, having such a nice set like that have such awful clipping as to make it unusable for a significant portion of the player base is just a shame.

[Estelindis]

2 hours ago, HSFKSN said:

I understand that, but almost none of the female hair customizations in game fit within that hood. I checked on my main, hoping I would find another hairstyle I like that would fit under the hood. I know players can just "choose not to wear the helmet," but why would the devs want players to not buy their new armor sets? The whole point of making new, high quality sets is so that players want them, otherwise they'd just be wasting our time and theirs.

In any case, I still think its something that should be changed, having such a nice set like that have such awful clipping as to make it unusable for a significant portion of the player base is just a shame.

I haven't found that many female hairstyles that work with it, agreed.  Fewer than I expected, by quite a margin.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for hair to be redesigned.  Frankly, I don't think it's going to happen.  But we are all allowed to ask for whatever we want, and from that perspective it would be very nice.

[Mardji]

It's not only about the hairstyle, but also about the body type. I was a bit surprised when I saw the hair clipping through on my character that has the same hairstyle as the one in the "Items inspired by Star Wars™: The Acolyte will be coming to SWTOR!" News post. My character uses body type 1 while the one in the news post is probably 2. I made a new character in game with the same hair but body type 2 and it didn't clip through the hood.

Edited May 30 by Mardji

[Kisanya]

If the Dev's decide not to fit it can we get out money back?

[ThanderSnB]

In case anyone missed it, Eric Musco said it's not getting fixed. Source: https://forums.swtor.com/topic/935308-items-inspired-by-the-acolyte-are-coming-to-swtor/#comment-9815970

On 5/29/2024 at 10:06 AM, EricMusco said:

Hey folks!

Really happy to see the reception to the inspired by The Acolyte items that have dropped with 7.5. Reminder that the series premieres on June 4th! 

As you all saw, there are some customizations, a new Vibroblade, and armor set that are available in the Cartel Market. Included in the armor set are two variations of the hood, one without character hair showing and one with character hair showing. I am sure some of you could be wondering, why offer both options (some of you might already know the answer, let’s talk about why and set some context.

As some of you likely know, typically when we release an armor set with a hood up, we hide your character’s hair. Without getting into a bunch of technical details, quite simply our hair is an “all or nothing” situation. What that means is if your hair is short (or long) and protrudes out, or is long and crosses an area where the hood curves, it will clip out of the hood and there isn’t much we can do about it currently. Given our concern around it clipping in a variety of situations, we have opted to hide hair as the lesser of two evils.

However, we wanted to try something different for the Dark Harbinger set by giving you two options of the hood! This way you can decide whether you want your hair to display or not. And again as noted above, this does mean the “with hair” version will clip with a number of hairstyles and that is not a bug that we will be addressing (it’s just how it works today), it is up to you if that is something you are ok with or if you will ultimately choose to use the hidden hair version on that character. We just wanted to give you more agency over your appearance.

Given how you’ve generally reacted to “with hair” hood helmets/hoods in the past I suspect this is something you will all be pretty positive about but we really wanted to be clear about the possibility of clipping, and what it means for you. Let us know your thoughts and we’re really looking forward to seeing you all in game for Desperate Defiance :).

-eric 

[supertimtaf]

31 minutes ago, ThanderSnB said:

In case anyone missed it, Eric Musco said it's not getting fixed. Source: https://forums.swtor.com/topic/935308-items-inspired-by-the-acolyte-are-coming-to-swtor/#comment-9815970

Shame. At least then edit the description on the cartel market because that feels somewhat dishonest 😕 

[alasamaya]

The only reason I bought this set was the hood with hair enabled. Bought it because that particular reason and honestly it looks ridiculous and bad. I want my Cartel Coins back. Id have never bought it if I knew this was bugged and makes it look terrible. It feels like a scam.

[Sonicphoto]

That is why they also include the "bald" version of the hood as well on the set for those that don't have the proper hair. And always preview safely!

[supertimtaf]

49 minutes ago, Sonicphoto said:

That is why they also include the "bald" version of the hood as well on the set for those that don't have the proper hair. And always preview safely!

The mention "will not work with every hairstyle" should still be included for transparency. Presented like it is currently in the cartel market, it is absolutely misleading. I do agree that you should always preview what you buy first, especially if it costs half of an expansion but more honest wording is also something that should have been done from the start.

[alasamaya]

So is "my fault" that they released a set that is bugged? lol

They should have warned us the hood with hair DOES BUG with certain hairstyles, or simply not release it. Blaming the customer for the provider´s fault seems wrong

[supertimtaf]

1 hour ago, alasamaya said:

So is "my fault" that they released a set that is bugged? lol

They should have warned us the hood with hair DOES BUG with certain hairstyles, or simply not release it. Blaming the customer for the provider´s fault seems wrong

Definitely not yours don't worry.

The fault is definitely the seller's, who purposedly released something not completely working and not stating that outright. I'm sure there's a legal term for that but I'm just a game designer, not a lawyer 😕

[Traceguy]

2 hours ago, alasamaya said:

So is "my fault" that they released a set that is bugged? lol

1 hour ago, supertimtaf said:

The fault is definitely the seller's, who purposedly released something not completely working and not stating that outright. I'm sure there's a legal term for that but I'm just a game designer, not a lawyer 😕

 

It could have been caught before purchase by using the "Preview". Also, it states "Hair enabled", not "hair compatible". Hair enabled is exactly as advertised. Lastly, they included a classic bald option, so you can don the set regardless of hair

 

Edited June 3 by Traceguy

[iCandie]

@Traceguy - If a toon has no hair, chooses to "preview" the item, that individual would not see there is a current problem with hair clipping. The issue is:

1) People change their hairstyles all the time, so for example; perhaps my toon has no hair. I purchase the item and then later on, I decide to change hairstyle in game, equip the armor set and bam...hair clipping!  Not good!

2) Description details of the item says "hair enabled"...there isn't a need to say "hair compatible" because they are selling the item that is meant to be able to wear any of the hairstyles with it.

Stop making excuses for a faulty design. People are paying money for items that do not work....period!

[astrogold]

The stupid part is they refuse to fix it. They would just have to make an alternate hair model. By not fixing it they miss out on a market of a huge increase of sales cartel armor with hoods because they could now apply it TO ALL hood armors. Just lazy dev and bad business practice to put it plainly.

[Estelindis]

On 6/5/2024 at 3:00 AM, astrogold said:

They would just have to make an alternate hair model. 

"Just" is doing a lot of work in this sentence.  They would have to change every hair model in the game that currently clips, for all phenotypes, for just this hood.  Different hoods are shaped differently and would require different hair adaptations.  You're entitled to think that's worth doing, but that amount of time could easily be spent on something that would have a larger positive impact on the game.

[The_Hightower]

On 6/2/2024 at 8:54 PM, alasamaya said:

The only reason I bought this set was the hood with hair enabled. Bought it because that particular reason and honestly it looks ridiculous and bad. I want my Cartel Coins back. Id have never bought it if I knew this was bugged and makes it look terrible. It feels like a scam.

Sorry, it's not like you can preview it, because I expected exactly this behaviour when first hearing about this hood.

Edited June 8 by The_Hightower

[supertimtaf]

On 6/8/2024 at 11:10 AM, Estelindis said:

but that amount of time could easily be spent on something that would have a larger positive impact on the game.

You mean like crafting overhaul, PvP fixes, class balance, more cosmetic armor earnable in-game, new raids, new flashpoints...
Yeaaah look at all that we got because they decided to not spend that amount of time making a paid product not a mess.

I see your point, but you also have to remember that making a second hair model for everything that clips, while a pain, is standard on most other MMOs besides WoW iirc (which isn't a good call anyway seeing how hard they've fallen). And while it takes at best one artist and one dev to do the whole "different hair model" thing, it wouldn't take the same people for let's say a crafting overhaul. Or class balance. Or raids and flashpoints. All the "major" things with positive impacts wouldn't require the same people at all.
 

On 6/8/2024 at 11:10 AM, Estelindis said:

They would have to change every hair model in the game that currently clips, for all phenotypes, for just this hood.

 Also there's that neat thing in game development that we call "standardized designs". This means that if you do something to have hairs not clip, it's not for *one* hood, but for all hoods in the game, which then have to follow a "standard" model with precise specifications and the likes... To make it easier for future head pieces to be created. The issue is that swtor has... None of that. Mostly because they decided very early one that no one would possibly mind about something so "minor" as visual appearance and so having bald characters isn't a big deal. So yeah, you have 20 to 30 types of different hood models atm which would all require different adaptations for them to be all compatible.

It's a shame really, that they didn't have the foresight required to plan ahead for the day where they'd actually be implementing hairs under hoods... But at this point this is this whole game's motto. "A shame that you didn't think about what happens in a year or two... :)" 

So yeah, you're right. They were incompetent back then, and this is what makes it a pain right now to fix. Doesn't prevent them from marketting their product correctly though. The fact that the devpost talking about hair clipping with the hood arrived when they released it and not when they announced it means that they probably didn't even intend to apologize for that, and sell it as is at first. But people started to complain and they had to talk about it.