Still to this day PVP sucks and remains unbalanced

[RazorBladecontra]

I did a couple of warzone matches yesterday and like always it's imbalanced and players still care more about DPS, scores, and kills, rather than playing the objective and having fun. You think with some of the recent patches and updates you'd think they resolved the issue right? I appreciate what Broadsword has done so far, I hope they can fix the balancing issue with PVP and hopefully bring ranked PVP back for the pro players who used to compete in those back in the good old days. 

And I wish that when you get a draw in a warzone match it should be a draw and not the algorithm saying this team won in every match, I would love to hear criticism and your guys opinions on what should be fixed and how it should be improved in the future. I'm only doing PVP again for the new cosmetics. 

Edited March 1 by RazorBladecontra

[DragoslavRadanov]

Not necessarily taking the kill farm premades side, but you do realize that's their idea of fun yes? There's no reason for them to play objectives, 4 wins or 12 losses, or anything in between, it makes no difference to them. They're going to get the weekly either way and they're going to be in queue all day anyway, so the amount of season points doesn't matter to them either. You get more points for being in a premade too, so there's no incentive for them to play any differently. If you want them to change their behavior you're going to have to make them think doing objectives is worth it, and maybe reduce premades back down to 4 since 8 mans would absolutely dominate objectives too if they bothered to do them.

[TrixxieTriss]

I summed it up in another thread with my last 2 posts. So I’m not going to repost again. Jump over and have a read there. 

https://forums.swtor.com/topic/933702-please-bring-back-rated-games/?do=findComment&comment=9802269

https://forums.swtor.com/topic/933702-please-bring-back-rated-games/?do=findComment&comment=9802277

Edited March 1 by TrixxieTriss

[RazorBladecontra]

17 hours ago, DragoslavRadanov said:

Not necessarily taking the kill farm premades side, but you do realize that's their idea of fun yes? There's no reason for them to play objectives, 4 wins or 12 losses, or anything in between, it makes no difference to them. They're going to get the weekly either way and they're going to be in queue all day anyway, so the amount of season points doesn't matter to them either. You get more points for being in a premade too, so there's no incentive for them to play any differently. If you want them to change their behavior you're going to have to make them think doing objectives is worth it, and maybe reduce premades back down to 4 since 8 mans would absolutely dominate objectives too if they bothered to do them.

I agree with reducing premades yes, and I think the seasonal objectives should make it where it should tell the player to compete in objective game-modes for more points. And they should fix the issue if a player deliberately leave a Warzone/Arena match it should not count as "lost a match" on you're battle record it should be recorded as desertion and the punishment should be reduced XP as the consequences if the player leaves a match deliberately. 

And if the player gets booted from a warzone/arenas due to server lag it shouldn't count as desertion, I agree with one player on the forum where the post said that if Bioware and E.A foresaw what was going to happen before releasing the new PVP update their wouldn't be the issues we'd be having today. When I played a bit of PVP back in 2015 I remember seeing a bolster that balanced my and other players stats in a warzone/arena's. I also think players should be heavily encouraged to get PVP gear so their stats can preform better, thank you for replying to my comment.

Edited March 1 by RazorBladecontra

[RazorBladecontra]

14 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

I summed it up in another thread with my last 2 posts. So I’m not going to repost again. Jump over and have a read there. 

https://forums.swtor.com/topic/933702-please-bring-back-rated-games/?do=findComment&comment=9802269

https://forums.swtor.com/topic/933702-please-bring-back-rated-games/?do=findComment&comment=9802277

Yes I did read one of them and I agree with what you say on the topic, I was thinking they should make a tutorial for players who are new to warzones/arena's and to make them play in a training simulation on how to do PVP I would implement it into SWTOR.

[warrico]

oh pvp sucks so insanely much. everything from the annoyance of having to pve gear up, but also premades, unbalanced, lag and lack of mercy in matches. Sucks so much I decided to unsub.

[TrixxieTriss]

On 3/1/2024 at 11:12 AM, DragoslavRadanov said:

You get more points for being in a premade too

This needs to change & be removed. It only encourages bad players to cheese their wins against a predominantly larger population of solo players. They already have an advantage in a premade, they shouldn’t get extra points on top of that. 

[Samcuu]

6 hours ago, warrico said:

oh pvp sucks so insanely much. everything from the annoyance of having to pve gear up, but also premades, unbalanced, lag and lack of mercy in matches. Sucks so much I decided to unsub.

The big premades are annoying I'll give u that. Gearing however should be extremely easy if ur pvping because all u have to do is get two 336 purples and then do the Hyde zeek mission and you'll have like 75% of ur gear. 

6 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

This needs to change & be removed. It only encourages bad players to cheese their wins against a predominantly larger population of solo players. They already have an advantage in a premade, they shouldn’t get extra points on top of that. 

Amd I can guarantee you that most ppl who are in premades could care less how many "points" (I don't even know what kind of points are being discussed here) they are getting for being grouped. They are there to kill stuff that's it. Most of them anyways I've seen a few big premades in the last week actually doing objectives. 

[Darkestmonty]

1 hour ago, Samcuu said:

The big premades are annoying I'll give u that. Gearing however should be extremely easy if ur pvping because all u have to do is get two 336 purples and then do the Hyde zeek mission and you'll have like 75% of ur gear. 

Amd I can guarantee you that most ppl who are in premades could care less how many "points" (I don't even know what kind of points are being discussed here) they are getting for being grouped. They are there to kill stuff that's it. Most of them anyways I've seen a few big premades in the last week actually doing objectives. 

if the devs wanted PvP to be fair they would let people pick their implants/tacticals for free and have a set stat for each class. They would also have group queues separate from solo queues.

The devs don't want PvP to be fair, they want PvP to be another reason to log on and grind gear.

Edited March 4 by Darkestmonty

[Samcuu]

10 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

if the devs wanted PvP to be fair they would let people pick their implants/tacticals for free and have a set stat for each class. They would also have group queues separate from solo queues.

The devs don't want PvP to be fair, they want PvP to be another reason to log on and grind gear.

Well if u want me to get up on my soap box I will. I'm 100% in favor of premades. First off this is a trinity style mmo. Mmo the imperative word there, meaning players are supposed to rely on eachother, group up and play. The community of an mmo is what sets itself apart from other games. So you'll never see me calling for a game to remove a group function. I know u said seperate the queues but in reality premades need the solo players to fill in the gaps if warzones are ever gonna pop the queue time for premade only would be like an hour to get a full 8 man lol. Not to mention the solo queue would discourage many support class players from queuing knowing they aren't going to get any help. Tanks perform better with heals and vice versa.

Nobody is preventing you or anyone in game from grouping and giving your team a better chance to win. All it takes is some organization. If you don't want to go through all that then I feel like you need to live with the consequences. The more work you put into anything in life, the better the results...would u not agree? This is coming from someone who solo queues a majority of the time, but I can also tell you the most fun I've ever had personally in game in pvp is queueing with friends because the social aspect is just as much fun if not more so than the gameplay. 

Where I think the devs have lost the plot is allowing the super premade to queue any time they like which does make the game unplayable if you are on an all pug team. That def needs to be eliminated, but I don't see one issue with a 4 man max premade in 8 v 8s. 

[Darkestmonty]

11 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

Well if u want me to get up on my soap box I will. I'm 100% in favor of premades. First off this is a trinity style mmo. Mmo the imperative word there, meaning players are supposed to rely on eachother, group up and play. The community of an mmo is what sets itself apart from other games. So you'll never see me calling for a game to remove a group function. I know u said seperate the queues but in reality premades need the solo players to fill in the gaps if warzones are ever gonna pop the queue time for premade only would be like an hour to get a full 8 man lol. Not to mention the solo queue would discourage many support class players from queuing knowing they aren't going to get any help. Tanks perform better with heals and vice versa.

Nobody is preventing you or anyone in game from grouping and giving your team a better chance to win. All it takes is some organization. If you don't want to go through all that then I feel like you need to live with the consequences. The more work you put into anything in life, the better the results...would u not agree? This is coming from someone who solo queues a majority of the time, but I can also tell you the most fun I've ever had personally in game in pvp is queueing with friends because the social aspect is just as much fun if not more so than the gameplay. 

Where I think the devs have lost the plot is allowing the super premade to queue any time they like which does make the game unplayable if you are on an all pug team. That def needs to be eliminated, but I don't see one issue with a 4 man max premade in 8 v 8s. 

I'm 100% in favor of premades being able to play against other premades only. Not denying anyone the chance at a fair game.

[Samcuu]

4 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

I'm 100% in favor of premades being able to play against other premades only. Not denying anyone the chance at a fair game.

Matching premades of many differing sizes would be a matchmaking nightmare on a matchmaker that's already borked as is. It would never work. Besides I don't think premades are all that common tbh, but when one is in queue in a game that's already not overly populated for pvp, ur gonna notice. So in essence you'd be killing premades regardless. 

I'd disagree about seperating queues...keep premades in the regular queue reduce the size and fix the matchmaker so u have another premade or as many competent solo players against the premade that can be managed. Give the premade the weaker solo players. I've been in matches in a premade where we are matched with another premade against what seemed to be mostly solo players. Matchmaking and the ops group being able to queue are the culprits here imo. 

[Darkestmonty]

11 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

Matching premades of many differing sizes would be a matchmaking nightmare on a matchmaker that's already borked as is. It would never work. Besides I don't think premades are all that common tbh, but when one is in queue in a game that's already not overly populated for pvp, ur gonna notice. So in essence you'd be killing premades regardless. 

I'd disagree about seperating queues...keep premades in the regular queue reduce the size and fix the matchmaker so u have another premade or as many competent solo players against the premade that can be managed. Give the premade the weaker solo players. I've been in matches in a premade where we are matched with another premade against what seemed to be mostly solo players. Matchmaking and the ops group being able to queue are the culprits here imo. 

if matching premades of the same size is an issue for balance how you can say matching premades against solo players is even close to balanced or fair?

[TrixxieTriss]

Sadly, the time for premades in the pug queue has passed. They do more harm than good to the community & the queues often die off because of them. There just isn’t a large enough population to make premades work in a pug queue anymore.
They need to do something or it’s only going to get worse. 

[Samcuu]

4 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

if matching premades of the same size is an issue for balance how you can say matching premades against solo players is even close to balanced or fair?

I'm stricly talking numbers wise. People who take the time to group, get in voice comms, and play as a better organized team...in all honesty deserve to have an advantage over someone who just wants to jump online and not be bothered to organize even tho they have the opportunity to do the exact same thing if they so choose. 

[Darkestmonty]

12 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

I'm stricly talking numbers wise. People who take the time to group, get in voice comms, and play as a better organized team...in all honesty deserve to have an advantage over someone who just wants to jump online and not be bothered to organize even tho they have the opportunity to do the exact same thing if they so choose. 

and those people who premake groups deserve to face only other premade groups for the fairest fight possible.

Are you saying that people who solo queue don't deserve fair fights?

Edited March 4 by Darkestmonty

[Samcuu]

Just now, Darkestmonty said:

and those people deserve to fight others like them for a fair fight.

Yeah so it's on matchmaking to divide the teams accordingly. No pug group can take on a semi competent ops team, so eliminate that by all means. Again I gave u a perfectly salient example of two 4 man premades getting matched on the same team. It wasn't a fun match for anyone. A lot of the issues many have, can be solved through matchmaking being fixed and premades reduced to 4. After that it should be up to players to organize themselves better and take pvp more seriously if they really care about winning matches. 

[Darkestmonty]

2 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

Yeah so it's on matchmaking to divide the teams accordingly. No pug group can take on a semi competent ops team, so eliminate that by all means. Again I gave u a perfectly salient example of two 4 man premades getting matched on the same team. It wasn't a fun match for anyone. A lot of the issues many have, can be solved through matchmaking being fixed and premades reduced to 4. After that it should be up to players to organize themselves better and take pvp more seriously if they really care about winning matches. 

or have two queues, premade queue and solo queue.

if you premake a team of any number, you are added to the premade queue.

if you solo queue, you are added to the solo queue.

It's pretty simple and fairest to the majority of players.

[Samcuu]

6 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

or have two queues, premade queue and solo queue.

if you premake a team of any number, you are added to the premade queue.

if you solo queue, you are added to the solo queue.

It's pretty simple and fairest to the majority of players.

How many premades do u think are on in prime time on starforge for example considering it's the most populated server? 

[Darkestmonty]

3 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

How many premades do u think are on in prime time on starforge for example considering it's the most populated server? 

how many solo players do you think have fair games against premade groups?

[Samcuu]

3 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

how many solo players do you think have fair games against premade groups?

It's a moot point because if a solo queue player has an advantage that they choose to forego then imo they don't deserve a fair match. The question is why aren't solo queue players playing the way the game is intended, in a group as a well organized team preferably a trinity comp in a trinity based mmo? 

[Darkestmonty]

5 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

It's a moot point because if a solo queue player has an advantage that they choose to forego then imo they don't deserve a fair match. The question is why aren't solo queue players playing the way the game is intended, in a group as a well organized team preferably a trinity comp in a trinity based mmo? 

Everything you said is fine, but let premade groups only fight against other premade groups.

If the premade groups don't want to fight premade groups they can solo queue.

It isn't a difficult argument to understand.

You and I both agree premades have a massive advantage over solo players.

so you separate the queues and let premades only fight other premades.

It's like weight classes in boxing. Yes, the heavy weight boxers would love to go up against feather weights and kick the every loving snot out of them and laugh while walking away with the win, but because we recognize that fairness in combat is more sporting, we split up the weight limits into classes so this doesn't happen.

Edited March 4 by Darkestmonty

[Samcuu]

1 minute ago, Darkestmonty said:

It's like weight classes in boxing. Yes, the heavy weight boxers would love to go up against feather weights and kick the every loving snot out of them and laugh while walking away with the win, but because we recognize that fairness in combat is more sporting, we split up the weight limits into classes so this doesn't happen.

Boxing is a singles sport. What about team games? If you decide to go play basketball at the park alone you are going to be forced to play with randoms. If 5 doods show up as a team you are gonna be at a disadvantage. Do you tell those guys to leave and wait for another 5 guys to show up for a fair game lol? Pickup hoops is a far better comparison to the swtor group finder pvp queue. 

Anyways as far as a premade queue only...making the numbers match to pop a 16 man only premade queue would be a nightmare the queues wouldn't pop. You'd probably be alienating a pretty decent chunk of the dedicated pvp community as well, ya know the ones that play to do pvp and kill stuff no matter if there's flimsy rewards on the table or not. Many solo queue as well as group queue and enduring a long queue time for a group queue that might never pop is a deal breaker.  

[Darkestmonty]

57 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

Boxing is a singles sport. What about team games? If you decide to go play basketball at the park alone you are going to be forced to play with randoms. If 5 doods show up as a team you are gonna be at a disadvantage. Do you tell those guys to leave and wait for another 5 guys to show up for a fair game lol? Pickup hoops is a far better comparison to the swtor group finder pvp queue. 

Anyways as far as a premade queue only...making the numbers match to pop a 16 man only premade queue would be a nightmare the queues wouldn't pop. You'd probably be alienating a pretty decent chunk of the dedicated pvp community as well, ya know the ones that play to do pvp and kill stuff no matter if there's flimsy rewards on the table or not. Many solo queue as well as group queue and enduring a long queue time for a group queue that might never pop is a deal breaker.  

Split premade queues and solo queues.

if premades cared enough to have fair matches, they would get others to queue as premade teams, if not they can solo queue.

You admit premades disrupt the power balance in pvp to the point where the premades have a massive advantage.

You admit that premades make up such a small number of players that a premade only queue won't work.

Yet we allow a small portion of players who like to premake teams for PvP to disrupt a much larger portion of players who solo queue.

I am against mixing solo and premade queues for regular pvp as much as I would be against mixing solo and premade queues in ranked PvP.

 

Edited March 4 by Darkestmonty

[Nee-Elder]

6 hours ago, Samcuu said:

It's a moot point because if a solo queue player has an advantage that they choose to forego then imo they don't deserve a fair match.

The question is why aren't solo queue players playing the way the game is intended: in a group as a well organized team preferably a trinity comp in a trinity based mmo? 

Bingo ^  yep.

However , in their defense ( since i  personally SOLO queue 95% of my playtime for WZ's  and probably more like 50% for Arenas ) , you have to also remember there is a large segment of legit casual$ who understandably have limited schedules + waning interest; and therefore can't  really commit to a weekly planning of  consistant hardcore teams.

Furthermore,  because there's not much else to do in SWTOR "endgame" , many people like me  enjoy  SOLO queue'ing just to test other ALT  Classes with various templates & rotations & such.    Not that easy to experiment  when you have a group ( friends or Fleet-randos ) relying upon your focused heals or damage/tank  numbers.

5 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Boxing is a singles sport.

What about team games? If you decide to go play basketball at the park alone you are going to be forced to play with randoms. If 5 doods show up as a team you are gonna be at a disadvantage. Do you tell those guys to leave and wait for another 5 guys to show up for a fair game lol?

Pickup hoops is a far better comparison to the swtor group finder pvp queue.

QFE ^  such a great analogy!

Don't expect  certain types of PvPouters  to ever listen though.

This is what happens when you attract seasonal Fortnite-freeloaders  into SWTOR after BioWare  painted themselves into a code corner with conflicting Combat-styles, which then caused their skeleton Dev crew to just hastily throw out the Ranked baby with the "toxic" bathwater.

It's possible BioSword  could have enough metrics ( population ) to warrant splitting the queues again  if/when they merge ALL the servers into one giant 'cloud' megaserver.   Until then, however, there doesn't seem to be enough players to fill 2 separate queues anymore sadly.

Edited March 4 by Nee-Elder
Reason: futile to argue with that dude , cuz they forget MMOs are made for grouping duh lol