Lockout passing

[masterpwnface]

This morning my raid team and I noticed something weird.  We entered a phase in Master Mode, and after clearing the first boss, we had 2 people swap toons for the next encounter.  However, after they left the group (one of them had group lead when he left) The instance changed from Master to Veteran.  This was replicated after our raid time as well.  It appears currently that if you begin an operation on Master Mode and the group leader either leaves or passes lead to someone else that the phase changes to Veteran even if everyone is still inside the Phase.  Im curious how this will affect groups that Utilize lockouts for their progression if the person passing the lock is not joining the group for the raid.  Unsure if this change was intended or not, but if it is I feel like this is a giant hit to the raiding community.

[Char_Ell]

If this was after the 7.4b update then please refer to this dev post.

https://forums.swtor.com/topic/933292-game-update-74b-coming-the-week-of-january-22nd/?do=findComment&comment=9797820

[masterpwnface]

Right but it still doesn't quite make sense in my opinion because no one in the group had a phase set to Veteran so based on the patch notes it should not have changed as the only active phase was set to Master Mode.  So I dont believe it is currently working as intended.

[Nee-Elder]

9 minutes ago, masterpwnface said:

Right but it still doesn't quite make sense in my opinion because no one in the group had a phase set to Veteran so based on the patch notes it should not have changed as the only active phase was set to Master Mode.  So I dont believe it is currently working as intended.

Be sure you see this new intel--> https://forums.swtor.com/topic/933292-game-update-74b-coming-the-week-of-january-22nd/?do=findComment&comment=9797820

Edited January 24 by Nee-Elder

[ZENDERRR]

NiM lockout passing is currently impossible due to the attempt to fix the phase exploit

"The disabled Master Mode Timed and Master Mode Survival Operation Achievements have been reenabled. When entering these modes, if any player joins with an active operation phase while the current group does not have one, it will force the group's difficulty to match the active phase.
To set your desired mode, you will need to reset your active phase and change the difficulty back."

According to this post, it should fix the exploit, but currently if you pass a NiM lockout to someone else, if the person with the lock leaves, the phase gets set to HM, even tho the phase was always set to NiM, making it impossible to pass NiM locks

[frutepy]

@JackieKo You didn't fix the exploit, you broke the lockout system so the exploit couldn't be used. That is not a fix. That's a copout. I would rather you have waited another week and actually gotten a fix then do this.

[NicoleMay]

Lockouts are dead then? This will make it far more difficult to prog some longer ops like Gods, SnV, Dxun...

I'm glad this popped up while progging DF myself, but this needs to be reversed or fixed somehow.

Lockout passing is a huge thing in the raiding community. We already have weeklies that require starting from the beginning for credit, and timer runs require a fresh instance. Why is this the solution?

I hope they try and fix it. But I don't have high hopes. 

[CheaterLL]

So we just ran a TFB Master.

Two people relogged before the final boss. One of them was the operations leader.

EVERYONE HAD THE SAME MM TFB 4/5 PHASE.

This still reset out difficulty to Veteran.

This killed our Timerun.

We killed the final Boss in this new VM phase state and afterwards the timer was still active.

Obviously we had to leave the phase, reset and go back to Master Mode, which aborted the timerun timer, in order to kill the final boss.

 

This patch is unplayable for MM raiding.

[Dakrsith]

5 hours ago, masterpwnface said:

This morning my raid team and I noticed something weird.  We entered a phase in Master Mode, and after clearing the first boss, we had 2 people swap toons for the next encounter.  However, after they left the group (one of them had group lead when he left) The instance changed from Master to Veteran.  This was replicated after our raid time as well.  It appears currently that if you begin an operation on Master Mode and the group leader either leaves or passes lead to someone else that the phase changes to Veteran even if everyone is still inside the Phase.  Im curious how this will affect groups that Utilize lockouts for their progression if the person passing the lock is not joining the group for the raid.  Unsure if this change was intended or not, but if it is I feel like this is a giant hit to the raiding community.

Dear Broadsword, you have just demonstrated complete and absolute idiocy when coding your own game. You just screwed over the entire player base with your most recent update regarding ops. You failed to code YOUR game, to allow people to pass locks. Ops lead switches, phase resets to HM. Ops lead DC's resets to Hardmode. Timer goes, and lock goes. Like do you guys even know your game? Seriously the incompetence shown with your coding and management of this game is astounding. Teams are unable to receive lockouts now from people. Its seriously astounding how you can screw this up. Do you want to kill your own game?

Passing lockouts is a huge part of our raiding to help prog some harder content in this game. I just cannot get over how bad you guys are with your own game. 

 

Congrats Broadsword on assisting to kill your own game. Well done. Fix it! 

 

Edited January 25 by Dakrsith

[Cednik]

Dear Broadsword, I hope that in this case it's only a temporaly solution. Our progress team and many others, who are doing master mode ops are using a lockout passing very often. 

It's really nice, that timers achievements are now available again. But consider this example:

You are doing a timer attempt in Dxun MM operation. It's a common thing, that ppl are relogging on different characters during this. But unfortunatelly ops leader gets a disconnect due to connection to internet drop. Now the ops lead is passed to person without a lock and difficulty is swap to veteran mode. Your suggestion - considering your post in dev tracker - is to reset a phase. But due to this, you are loosing a chance to get that timer achievement.

I think this is not really a best solution. So please reconsider a different approach. Me and the rest of the players, who are doing a Master mode operations, would really welcome it. 

Thanks.

[Exocor]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb CheaterLL:

So we just ran a TFB Master.

Two people relogged before the final boss. One of them was the operations leader.

EVERYONE HAD THE SAME MM TFB 4/5 PHASE.

This still reset out difficulty to Veteran.

This killed our Timerun.

 

So, solution for now: If you attempt a Timer, have Ops Lead on somebody who stays in the entire time. We're doing it out of convenience in our Gods Timers anyway, because there is a lot of changing characters still and we don't want the lead to pass onto people that don't notice it, resulting in 5 people not having any assistance lead and the rest not noticing that they're the only ones that can move the relogged people into the right spot in the ops frame or mark bosses appropriately.

 

Passing lockouts however should still be possible, if the Ops Leader has the lockout and stays in the group, no? Obviously farming the same lockout only works 8 times, after that you run out of people with the lockout. Either way, there are workarounds if you know what to do.

 

[frutepy]

My team did some stuff for science last night. ANY lead change causes the difficulty to be reset. There is no passing of lockouts at all. The Iokath function certainly does not work. The only way to use a lockout is if the person who has it is group lead and stays on that toon the entire time with no dcs, which rather defeats the purpose of the lockout system to begin with.

I'm really hoping this is a hotfix, but they usually tell us if it is. Either way, it's a terrible decision that makes it impossible for my team to prog nim styrak.

[Sharion_Iliera]

36 minutes ago, Exocor said:

Passing lockouts however should still be possible, if the Ops Leader has the lockout and stays in the group, no? Obviously farming the same lockout only works 8 times, after that you run out of people with the lockout. Either way, there are workarounds if you know what to do.

 

This is just the thing: "passing lockouts" often means that the person giving one to a team won't raid with them, only gives the lock with the intent to help, then goes to their merry way. Which is, from now on, impossible.

I can see you starting to type, and I agree that at one hand, when progging, it's important to learn the smaller bosses, too - on the other hand, when a team has only 1-2 raid nights a week, it can be a huge help to them to receive a lock for the boss they haven't defeated yet, as that gives them more time to practice on that one.

You can argue that someone "just" have to hit a lock for their team. If you can do that, cudos. Many people are not able to, that is why they relied on locks from other people.

 

Btw, we tried it out just out of curiosity: even if the leader gets dropped in the midst of an ongoing boss fight, the phase changes immediately.

[xxSHOONYxx]

1 hour ago, frutepy said:

My team did some stuff for science last night. ANY lead change causes the difficulty to be reset. There is no passing of lockouts at all. The Iokath function certainly does not work. The only way to use a lockout is if the person who has it is group lead and stays on that toon the entire time with no dcs, which rather defeats the purpose of the lockout system to begin with.

I'm really hoping this is a hotfix, but they usually tell us if it is. Either way, it's a terrible decision that makes it impossible for my team to prog nim styrak.

Did you try what happens if the leader phases out of the instance and then goes back in?

[masterpwnface]

52 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Did you try what happens if the leader phases out of the instance and then goes back in?

The group leader is free to leave the phase and re-enter with no problems.  The issue only occurs if Lead is passed to someone else after anyone has phased into an instance.

Note:  I just noticed a twitter post indicating that they are looking into this problem so hopefully it is fixed soon!

[Sauvraign]

We did try on a Brontes NiM lock yesterday. we went inside, the leader gave me the lead and I got this message automatically. The leader who left the group and came back was seeing the ops set as HM and couldn't enter back inside until we reset the phase. It's completely broken, if you wanna finish a NiM ops, you need exactely the same group + the leader has to stay as leader with the lock or else it's not possible.

Broadsword you need immediately fix that or else the PVE HL will be ended and be the end of SWTOR for sure.

 

Edited January 25 by Sauvraign

[Nee-Elder]

13 minutes ago, masterpwnface said:

Note:  I just noticed a twitter post indicating that they are looking into this problem

Where?  Can you re-post it here please?

Because i'm on their official page now-->  https://twitter.com/SWTOR   ...and i can't seem to find it yet.

[masterpwnface]

3 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

Where?  Can you re-post it here please?

Because i'm on their official page now-->  https://twitter.com/SWTOR   ...and i can't seem to find it yet.

https://twitter.com/SWTOR/status/1750565827965853903

It just the basic "we're looking into it, will update later" but at least they're acknowledging it at the moment.

[Exocor]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Sharion_Iliera:

 

This is just the thing: "passing lockouts" often means that the person giving one to a team won't raid with them, only gives the lock with the intent to help, then goes to their merry way. Which is, from now on, impossible.

I can see you starting to type, and I agree that at one hand, when progging, it's important to learn the smaller bosses, too - on the other hand, when a team has only 1-2 raid nights a week, it can be a huge help to them to receive a lock for the boss they haven't defeated yet, as that gives them more time to practice on that one.

You can argue that someone "just" have to hit a lock for their team. If you can do that, cudos. Many people are not able to, that is why they relied on locks from other people.

 

Btw, we tried it out just out of curiosity: even if the leader gets dropped in the midst of an ongoing boss fight, the phase changes immediately.

 

On second thought, this actually creates an issue for us, as we're currently "progging" Gods 16m with our main group plus guests. When we get to the later stages the plan is to prepare the lockout in our 8m raids and then take it from the boss we left off in the previous 16m raid. Se we definitely have to be very careful about this.

 

But from what I hear, changing toons for everyone else but the Operations Leader shoudl still be entirely possible. So prog groups should not have a problem as long as they have a dedicated ops lead that stays in the group for the rest of the day. That's annoying, but workable and shouldn't cause an immediate fallout among our mainraid members. So I'd still say, from my point of view, this is "not that big of a deal".

 

[Crystal_Mind]

2 minutes ago, Exocor said:

as long as they have a dedicated ops lead that stays in the group

Even if you don't care about lockout passing between groups, this still causes an issue if your ops lead disconnects.

[masterpwnface]

5 minutes ago, Exocor said:

 

On second thought, this actually creates an issue for us, as we're currently "progging" Gods 16m with our main group plus guests. When we get to the later stages the plan is to prepare the lockout in our 8m raids and then take it from the boss we left off in the previous 16m raid. Se we definitely have to be very careful about this.

 

But from what I hear, changing toons for everyone else but the Operations Leader shoudl still be entirely possible. So prog groups should not have a problem as long as they have a dedicated ops lead that stays in the group for the rest of the day. That's annoying, but workable and shouldn't cause an immediate fallout among our mainraid members. So I'd still say, from my point of view, this is "not that big of a deal".

 

I agree to an extent.  Yes, if someone in your own group is able to secure their own lockout and bring it to raid there should be no problems at all, (assuming they dont dc)  The main issue like others have pointed out is if your group is unable to get their own locks. Not everyone has the time to be able to prep their own raids, currently the bug is basically just middle finger to those groups. (Though an argument could be made they should be good enough to clear to their prog point anyway) but some teams only meet once a week.

[Exocor]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb masterpwnface:

I agree to an extent.  Yes, if someone in your own group is able to secure their own lockout and bring it to raid there should be no problems at all, (assuming they dont dc)  The main issue like others have pointed out is if your group is unable to get their own locks. Not everyone has the time to be able to prep their own raids, currently the bug is basically just middle finger to those groups. (Though an argument could be made they should be good enough to clear to their prog point anyway) but some teams only meet once a week.

I agree. We have some groups that we're friends with that we passed a lockout over in the past and vice versa. I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be fixed, but if it isn't it's not the end of the world.

 

[NicoleMay]

7 hours ago, Exocor said:

I agree. We have some groups that we're friends with that we passed a lockout over in the past and vice versa. I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be fixed, but if it isn't it's not the end of the world.

 

You say that now, but just wait until your ops lead DCs or crashes during a timer run.

[Nee-Elder]

19 hours ago, Exocor said:

I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be fixed, but if it isn't it's not the end of the world.

Should be fixed soon-->  https://forums.swtor.com/topic/933407-fix-for-master-mode-operations-phase/   and won't affect "the world" .

[NicoleMay]

Now that the issue is supposed to be resolved, what changes are people noticing now when trying to swap group leads, members (like alts), and lockout passing?

Is everything working as it did a month ago, sans HM-NiM exploit?