Detached...

[Przemo_No]

I have started the "Old wounds" part on one of my characters and... I found myself NOT remembering what was it all about. Long cinematics, running around, trying to remind myself where at the whole story actuall am I, but it was all like a dream that you know you had, but cannot remember any details when you wake up.

 

 

The point is that the whole "Malgus saga" is so incredibly scattered and published so rarely that it is simply hard to remember what was its main issue - that's how detached the players become! You do not remember what was your character doing, hwat was his/her goal in the whole story,  because it all happened a year or 2 ago and in the meantine, you had few "seasons", events and whatever else to actually keep players away from doing the ADVENTURE!

 

Not to mention that all Manaan and Voss parts are just an incredible drag and super slow "expansions", where you need to constantly fight mobs, all day/night round or even clean Gormak cantina. Yep, the Allmighty Outlander who killed the Biggest Bada Boss in Whole Galaxy (along few other nasty creatures), needs to grab the broom and put the dirt aside, because...reasons.

 

Exactly the reason I did not even start the newest "expansion" because it repels me, to spend my valuable time on removing pixels from screen every 5 seconds and seeing no progress whatsoever.

 

The worst is however the fact that Biosford is throwing all those "events" on us without any planning as it seems.

 

GS5 and PVP S4 happened the same time, along with "LifeDay" and some other regulars. And not that long AGO after GS4 has finished!

Can we have some breaks between these, so we can actually play the the content and not run like rabbits from one task to another??

 

Anyone remembers class stories? How neatly were they placed, how different they were?

These were the ESSENCE of the game, we could follow the story and we KNEW what was it all about, on each class and each story.

 

Currently, with that ignorant "unification" of all classes into one "Outlander" the stories make little sense and are totally inconvincing and easily forgettable.

 

I had no issues remembering each of my characters "story location" in the base game, but after Valkorion, I just lost it, because ...it does not matter anyway, I will end up cleaning another cantina with my Galactic Superhero... becuase no one can actually invent a meaningful story for our characters.

 

 

 

 

[bahramnima]

well i have bad news for you, because we get small story content every 6 months or twice a year, and those story content move forward/advances the story little by little, so at this rate it will take 3 years maybe even 4 years for malgus story to wrap up and we finally move on from malgus for good, the reality is that the game does not have budget or man power man, i really do not think it will get better than this , i really hope that i am wrong and it will get better than this but i doubt it, this game is not my main mmo anymore i only come back to swtor from time to time and whenever there is a new content, do not make this game your main mmo because you are gonna get disappointed, just play it very casually from time to time, you will feel better. 

[BulbulusTheGreat]

 

55 minutes ago, bahramnima said:

well i have bad news for you, because we get small story content every 6 months or twice a year, and those story content move forward/advances the story little by little, so at this rate it will take 3 years maybe even 4 years for malgus story to wrap up and we finally move on from malgus for good, the reality is that the game does not have budget or man power man, i really do not think it will get better than this , i really hope that i am wrong and it will get better than this but i doubt it, this game is not my main mmo anymore i only come back to swtor from time to time and whenever there is a new content, do not make this game your main mmo because you are gonna get disappointed, just play it very casually from time to time, you will feel better. 

its my main MMO and im not dissapointed, becuse at the end of the day as bad and as rare as updates are its still best story driven MMO.

[ThanderSnB]

I have the same problem remembering what happened in the story because of the long breaks between story updates. I've got a habit now of writing a summary after I finish a story update. When the next story update comes out, I go back and read my summary. I think the game should have a summary like this for each character that covers all the major points in the story. Many players have suggested this as well. Until they add something like that, I just have to write things down.

For Old Wounds, I think the story makes sense for a Light side or neutral character, but it doesn't make a lot of sense for a Dark side character. A Dark sider wouldn't do chores or errands to get on the Three's good side. They would probably just demand the Three tell them the vision from the start. The problem with that is it then avoids almost all the story content in the update, so Dark sider characters wouldn't have much to do. Broadsword doesn't have the dev time for true branching story, so it has to be mostly on-rails with a few minor variations.

Edited January 23 by ThanderSnB

[Whykara]

7 hours ago, BulbulusTheGreat said:

its my main MMO and im not dissapointed

How can you see what this game could be and compare it to what it actually is, and not be disappointed? So much squandered potential. 

[LD_Little_Dragon]

5 minutes ago, Whykara said:

How can you see what this game could be and compare it to what it actually is, and not be disappointed? So much squandered potential. 

Speaking just for myself it's because you look at what actually IS and not what could have been.   Dwelling on what didn't happen (and players will all have their their own unique views on what direction the game should have taken) is pointless.

[Whykara]

9 minutes ago, LD_Little_Dragon said:

Speaking just for myself it's because you look at what actually IS and not what could have been.   Dwelling on what didn't happen (and players will all have their their own unique views on what direction the game should have taken) is pointless.

 

[cjmarsh]

Seems like you're burnt out and not enjoying it the way you used to. Try a different game or two then come back when it calls to you again.

[Pietrastor]

On 1/23/2024 at 4:06 PM, bahramnima said:

well i have bad news for you, because we get small story content every 6 months or twice a year, and those story content move forward/advances the story little by little, so at this rate it will take 3 years maybe even 4 years for malgus story to wrap up and we finally move on from malgus for good, the reality is that the game does not have budget or man power man, i really do not think it will get better than this , i really hope that i am wrong and it will get better than this but i doubt it, this game is not my main mmo anymore i only come back to swtor from time to time and whenever there is a new content, do not make this game your main mmo because you are gonna get disappointed, just play it very casually from time to time, you will feel better. 

Then the solution is simple - they should write shorter arcs. Your suggestion that Malgus/Mando story could go for another 3-4 years is just bonkers. Not because it's unrealistic, it may very well happen this way, but it would be absolutely ridiculous. It already is! This arc has been going on since like 2019, years&years longer than ANY story saga in the game prior, on top of the least frequent updates. No wonder no one remembers anymore what is even suppoused to be happening, the plot keeps going in circles with tiny progression here and there stuck inside massive detours form the actual developement.

 

If they don't have the budget anymore to do more, they need to keep the arcs much shorter so people dont wait 2 years for another major plot developement which they won't even understand because they already forgot most what happened before

Edited January 27 by Pietrastor

[TziganeNZ]

On 1/24/2024 at 12:01 AM, Przemo_No said:

 

I had no issues remembering each of my characters "story location" in the base game, but after Valkorion, I just lost it, because ...it does not matter anyway, I will end up cleaning another cantina with my Galactic Superhero... becuase no one can actually invent a meaningful story for our characters.

 

Given the extremely high level of technological sophistication in the SW universe (starships, lightsabers, droids, plasma blaster bolts, ergonomic chairs etc), you'd think they would have at least invented a Roomba....

[bahramnima]

9 hours ago, Pietrastor said:

Then the solution is simple - they should write shorter arcs. Your suggestion that Malgus/Mando story could go for another 3-4 years is just bonkers. Not because it's unrealistic, it may very well happen this way, but it would be absolutely ridiculous. It already is! This arc has been going on since like 2019, years&years longer than ANY story saga in the game prior, on top of the least frequent updates. No wonder no one remembers anymore what is even suppoused to be happening, the plot keeps going in circles with tiny progression here and there stuck inside massive detours form the actual developement.

 

If they don't have the budget anymore to do more, they need to keep the arcs much shorter so people dont wait 2 years for another major plot developement which they won't even understand because they already forgot most what happened before

there are so many unanswered questions in this arc that i do not see them finishing the whole arc within a year or even 2 considering the small amount content we get every year, unless they release big content update and finish this arc but do they have man power and budget for big expansion?? i do not know we have to wait and see.

we still do not know who darth nul is?? ( if i write their name correctly but you know who i am talking about)

we still do not know what darth nul machine is??

heta kol is still at large, she still out there

shae vizla is missing.

what is up with sahar??

can they answer all those questions within year or two considering the size of content patch and amount of story content in it?? i do not know maybe if they are really good at story telling but still i would say it will take at least 3 years for this arc to wrap up.

as for me i am also tired of malgus and i want broadsword to kill off malgus for the last time for good, again we have to wait and see.

Edited January 27 by bahramnima

[Pietrastor]

23 hours ago, bahramnima said:

there are so many unanswered questions in this arc that i do not see them finishing the whole arc within a year or even 2 considering the small amount content we get every year, unless they release big content update and finish this arc but do they have man power and budget for big expansion?? i do not know we have to wait and see.

we still do not know who darth nul is?? ( if i write their name correctly but you know who i am talking about)

we still do not know what darth nul machine is??

heta kol is still at large, she still out there

shae vizla is missing.

what is up with sahar??

can they answer all those questions within year or two considering the size of content patch and amount of story content in it?? i do not know maybe if they are really good at story telling but still i would say it will take at least 3 years for this arc to wrap up.

as for me i am also tired of malgus and i want broadsword to kill off malgus for the last time for good, again we have to wait and see.

They can literally answer all that within 1 update if they stop wasting what's little left of the limited screentime (due to budget) on useless, repetetive and redundant Malgus prattle about galaxy in flames we heard 7 times already. Or Heeta escaping from Shae for the 2837th time and coming up with the next Evil Plot of the Year like a sunday cartoon villain.

Nathema Conspiracy or Echoes of Oblivion are 2 good examples how quickly they can resolve multiple plot threads at once when they want to. Many would say perhaps too quickly and neatly when it comes specifically to these 2 updates (Nathema alone resolves the Gravestone, Gemini, Zildrog, the Eternal Fleet and the Alliance all at once) but they're proof that it can be done and still work. And that there's massive difference between moving thing forward versus a plot that spends years and years going in circles with little-to-none progression.

That's the thing - it's also how and what they decide to write - and right now (more like since 2019) they write ALOT of talking about nothing, stalling, asking rethorcial questions and then questions about those questions, repeating the same statements and saying everything and nothing at the same time just to waste more time. The entire Voss Retreat side-detour could've been replaced with Sana-Rae telling us that the Three had a vision where "you will be the one to save the galaxy"  as that's literally all there is to it. Or it could've been skipped entirely as that statement actually brings nothing relevant and doesn't move the plot one bit.

BTW, we now know who Nul was, her entire backstory actually was revealed in 7.3 finally. Granted, half of it happened via her Codex entry, but still. The fact that you, an avid story player, didn't even register that or already forgot about it is both hilarious and telling in itself, a great example how badly they're mishandling the writing in this story era. Not blaming you nor ciritcizing you in any way, it's their fault.

The updates are not only extremly rare (but that happened before too, Ziost was the sole mid-year story progression patch between SOR and KOTFE) but most importantly - the few updates we get waste so much time dragging the same tired questions & "mysteries" for far too long that it's making people question what is even an actual progression/big reveal and what is another stalling for 2 more years. Or it makes them not register it all when it actually does happen. Or forget about it by the time the next bit of progression happens 2 years later. It makes the plot developement lose all the remaining little relevance and impact it already barely had left to begin wirh. The Nul backstory being a great example. We find out who she was. Turns out it wasn't even important at all because  it still doesn't answer what exactly Malgus wants to do with her Force-bonding/Force-reaching techinques.

We've JUST had a Manadalorian update. Technically. Becuase it added NOTHING of importance and value to Heta and her story/motivations/goals/etc. Hours wasted. That's the summary of the entire Malgus/Mando saga. I'm fine with filler and detours if there's time and budget to do it and if it doesn't hurt the main plot. SWTOR doesn't have either left anymore tho and every bit of stalling hurts the main arc heavily at this point.

Edited January 28 by Pietrastor

[voshara]

Yes but we got a new gtn and new dyes which we really, really needed.

 

(That's sarcasm lest any think I'm serious)

 

Btw are we ever gonna be able to sell drops on the gtn? I'm missing  glams. /cry

[xordevoreaux]

On 1/23/2024 at 10:06 AM, bahramnima said:

well i have bad news for you, because we get small story content every 6 months or twice a year, and those story content move forward/advances the story little by little, so at this rate it will take 3 years maybe even 4 years for malgus story to wrap up and we finally move on from malgus for good, the reality is that the game does not have budget or man power man, i really do not think it will get better than this , i really hope that i am wrong and it will get better than this but i doubt it, this game is not my main mmo anymore i only come back to swtor from time to time and whenever there is a new content, do not make this game your main mmo because you are gonna get disappointed, just play it very casually from time to time, you will feel better. 

They'd have to take Malgus off the game's opening cut scene first.

[BulbulusTheGreat]

On 1/24/2024 at 12:32 AM, Whykara said:

How can you see what this game could be and compare it to what it actually is, and not be disappointed? So much squandered potential. 

becuse i still like it and dissapointment isn't just a swtor thing, its a life thing and its games thing, i've gamed my entire life and seen a lot of games go straight into a gutter, way worse than this game, at the end of the day its still my favourite game and my only MMO so i can't really compare it to other MMOs, but i can to games in general, game is far from perfect and it needs improving but that doesn't meant i can't love it. people also often base how good game is based on what they like, such as "i didn't like this fp so this means game has gone bad" this is very subjective becuse its a matter of taste, KOTFE is great example, i love it and most others hate it, it doesn't make the game bad for me, then there is bugs and small story updates, i think we can all agree thats an issue and it is dissapointing to see the game go from KOTFE and Onslaught to this but like i said i still love it.

Edited February 6 by BulbulusTheGreat

[Kryptonomic]

3 hours ago, BulbulusTheGreat said:

at the end of the day its still my favourite game and my only MMO so i can't really compare it to other MMOs, but i can to games in general, game is far from perfect and it needs improving but that doesn't meant i can't love it.

I really like this sentiment. Entertainment is subjective. It always has been, always will be. What one person hates, another likes. And vice versa. I'm one of those that saw what this could have been when it was originally framed as KOTOR 3 and there's a large part of me that can't escape the disappointment of what might have been.

But, that being said, I have to judge SWTOR on its own merits, not on something that doesn't exist. (Caveat to what I say next: I'm often paid to be here; not by Bioware / Broadsword, but rather as part of my work on narrative and story experience testing, which I periodically write about. SWTOR is often used in case and classroom studies for ludonarrative thinking and design.) SWTOR has been in existence since the end of 2011, so roughly twelve years. That's not a bad run for a game. Yes, there have been mis-steps but notice that most of the people actively complaining about the mis-steps are still here.

I'm not suggesting people shouldn't voice criticism. They should. But at some point, if said criticism has been coming for years and seems to infuse a person's thinking, perhaps they're just playing the wrong game. Or maybe the right game, but at the wrong time. The lack of people leaving, even when unhappy, is what the game industry, and MMOs in particular, count on: people will complain, but in the end they will still pay with their time and their dollars.

An interesting take on all of this is usually that if SWTOR was an MMO without the Star Wars branding, it would have failed long ago. Perhaps. People say the same thing about Star Trek Online. But the fact is SWTOR is an MMO with Star Wars branding and has to be judged on that criteria. It's really the only expansive Star Wars game at the moment. The Jedi: Fallen Order series, for all its merits, is still relatively self-contained as a once-and-done experience.

I think it's possible to hold both views in mind. There is a whole lot of lost potential in this game, not just in what it could have originally been, but in how it has evolved. There is also a whole lot to engage with in this game, particularly if you take your time and just roll with the experience. SWTOR is in a position of trying to cater more to newer players -- of which there can be a steady stream -- rather than catering to the "old guard," as it were. That causes friction and division. And hence we see exactly your sentiment: far from perfect, needs improving, but can still be enjoyed.

 

Edited February 6 by Kryptonomic

[Whykara]

4 hours ago, BulbulusTheGreat said:

becuse i still like it

I do as well. If I didn't like the game I wouldn't be disappointed in the first place. This game has been near and dear to me for over 11 years now and I find it sad to see it mistreated so badly.

[Tantala]

This is basically the reason that I recently quit playing.  Before that I did play a couple of new characters though taking only the Class missions.  Some work better than others doing this but the Imperial Agent storyline is epic if you work this way.

I might come back at some stage but not in the forseeable future.  If I do, I will probably start a new legacy on a new server just to up the challenge a bit.

[ExarSun]

23 hours ago, Kryptonomic said:

SWTOR is in a position of trying to cater more to newer players -- of which there can be a steady stream -- rather than catering to the "old guard," as it were. That causes friction and division. And hence we see exactly your sentiment: far from perfect, needs improving, but can still be enjoyed.

 

Those new players....are they in the room with us right now?? Because the hefty and steady decline of the population (look at numbers and charts) speaks volumes about people leaving and not being replaced with the same number of new players. Just lol. There is no sensible way to cater to even new players with pateticaly small and convoluted updates like 7.xx. 

[Kryptonomic]

53 minutes ago, ExarSun said:

Those new players....are they in the room with us right now??

In most games, the vast majority of players are the equivalent of a silent majority. You can, as an example, look at some recent YouTube videos posted about "Is SWTOR Worth Playing in 2023" (and now "... in 2024"). Did those bring in new people? Hard to say, but it would be likely that some were enticed to give it a shot. Given that I'm here again -- and I only show up when ludonarrative experiences are being tested and used in classroom settings -- means there has been enough demand for me to be engaged in this way.

53 minutes ago, ExarSun said:

Because the hefty and steady decline of the population

I didn't talk about population. I just talked about who was being catered to recently in a broad sense. Whether it's working or not is an entirely different question. As a general, and obvious, rule most MMO style games are always trying to get new players, as well as retain existing players and entice former players to return. But a lot of the changes to UI that people wonder about were not for established players, who really didn't need most of that. The move to Steam, to 64-bit and to AWS was an attempt to get the platform more up-to-date so that it could accommodate a wider audience.

55 minutes ago, ExarSun said:

There is no sensible way to cater to even new players with pateticaly small and convoluted updates like 7.xx. 

Sure there are. New players, particularly those who take their time with the game, would have the full vanilla experience to go through. So by the time they get to the recent small updates, there are many small updates available. Now, again, whether that works is a different matter. But it's not hard to see that there is a sensible way. What's harder to cater to with the smaller updates are the established players.

1 hour ago, ExarSun said:

pateticaly small and convoluted updates

For the people who feel this way, and I can entirely understand why, the question then becomes how long are they going to stick around and complain about it? Mind you, I'm not against critiquing. I think it's crucial for a playerbase to be a critical one. But when said complaints are consistent over years and when the situation doesn't seem to be changing, whether due to budget or apathy, then clearly established players are no longer being catered to. Yet ... many of them apparently stick around. If that's the case even for those who seem miserable, imagine how much easier it is for a newer player who doesn't have that full experience yet.

[ExarSun]

You say many stick aroung...which is not entirely correct. The decline of the population, stats, steam charts, server pops, etc...as I said before - tell the truth. Facts are facts, and no sugarcoating or whisful thinking can change them unfortunately. I myself, who were never unsubbed since prolly 2013-2014, have cut my sub for 2 years - the entirety of 7.0 and only recently came back to find the game in shambles and in a horrific state, not that this did surprise me in any way.

Facts are  - 7.0 is a disaster, convoluted and unnecesary changes, small and meaningless updates, worst and laziest story i have ever seen. Player numbers show that.

Any selfrespecting online game with competent devs looks to keep their estabilshed core players. They are the main source of income. Arguing the opposite is total nonsense and absurdity.

[Kryptonomic]

2 hours ago, ExarSun said:

You say many stick aroung...which is not entirely correct. The decline of the population

There can be a decline in population and many still sticking around. Those are not mutually exclusive statements. It just means not as many are sticking around.

 

2 hours ago, ExarSun said:

Any selfrespecting online game with competent devs looks to keep their estabilshed core players. They are the main source of income. Arguing the opposite is total nonsense and absurdity.

But nobody is arguing that. Catering to new players does not mean I was saying new players are the main source of their income. So there was no "arguing the opposite." Any game based on longevity wants its players to stick around. This is obvious. Barring having as many people as possible retained, your primary goal is to retain enough to meet your operating budget (bare minimum revenue) and then some more (to profit and be able to actually reinvest). Sometimes you get that through existing players; sometimes you get that through new players.

It sounds to me like this isn't the game for you for the reasons you stated. And understandable reasons; many would agree with you. You came back even though you were expecting nothing better; as you said "not that this did surprise me in any way." So you had expectation of badness, came back anyway, and are still here posting about it. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. What I'm saying is many do what you do -- but also keep their subscription. Others cancel it but then come back.

So it's hard for a studio to cater to audiences like that, particularly when (arguably) the studio has caused that audience fluctuation by their content strategy. Soon you get into a chicken-and-egg situation. They can't get more budget because they can't meet projections because player volatility. They can't ease that volatility because enough people don't trust the product and development team to deliver. So that's where you start to cater to newer audiences that don't have the same history and expectations and/or disappointments.

Whether that works is highly debatable. It's worked for some games; not for others. Since SWTOR is still here, the overall strategy is working well enough to at least not shelve the game entirely.

 

Edited February 7 by Kryptonomic

[BulbulusTheGreat]

On 2/6/2024 at 10:04 AM, Kryptonomic said:

I really like this sentiment. Entertainment is subjective. It always has been, always will be. What one person hates, another likes. And vice versa. I'm one of those that saw what this could have been when it was originally framed as KOTOR 3 and there's a large part of me that can't escape the disappointment of what might have been.

But, that being said, I have to judge SWTOR on its own merits, not on something that doesn't exist. (Caveat to what I say next: I'm often paid to be here; not by Bioware / Broadsword, but rather as part of my work on narrative and story experience testing, which I periodically write about. SWTOR is often used in case and classroom studies for ludonarrative thinking and design.) SWTOR has been in existence since the end of 2011, so roughly twelve years. That's not a bad run for a game. Yes, there have been mis-steps but notice that most of the people actively complaining about the mis-steps are still here.

I'm not suggesting people shouldn't voice criticism. They should. But at some point, if said criticism has been coming for years and seems to infuse a person's thinking, perhaps they're just playing the wrong game. Or maybe the right game, but at the wrong time. The lack of people leaving, even when unhappy, is what the game industry, and MMOs in particular, count on: people will complain, but in the end they will still pay with their time and their dollars.

An interesting take on all of this is usually that if SWTOR was an MMO without the Star Wars branding, it would have failed long ago. Perhaps. People say the same thing about Star Trek Online. But the fact is SWTOR is an MMO with Star Wars branding and has to be judged on that criteria. It's really the only expansive Star Wars game at the moment. The Jedi: Fallen Order series, for all its merits, is still relatively self-contained as a once-and-done experience.

I think it's possible to hold both views in mind. There is a whole lot of lost potential in this game, not just in what it could have originally been, but in how it has evolved. There is also a whole lot to engage with in this game, particularly if you take your time and just roll with the experience. SWTOR is in a position of trying to cater more to newer players -- of which there can be a steady stream -- rather than catering to the "old guard," as it were. That causes friction and division. And hence we see exactly your sentiment: far from perfect, needs improving, but can still be enjoyed.

 

very well put and said sir, yeah pretty much everything you said i agree with, especially about people still playing the game, its popular to scream "maintance mode" nowadays but people that think maintance mode is coming and "end is nigh" tend to be among ones that play the most, its weird honestly, feels like an odd love hate relationship with the game, me? i just love it and theres not much to it, im not blind to its issues and there were things i'd like to be different but that doesn't kill my overall enjoyment and love i have with this game.

[recalcitrantIre]

On 1/28/2024 at 1:08 AM, bahramnima said:

we still do not know who darth nul is?? ( if i write their name correctly but you know who i am talking about)

a former Jedi Master named Reniah who split from the Order over unorthodox views and developed her own following, also had the ability to easily form Force bonds and accelerate the growth of other Force-sensitives power and was eventually discovered and turned to the dark side by Vitiate; this was explained in the 7.3 update

On 1/28/2024 at 1:08 AM, bahramnima said:

what is up with sahar?

Long-standing guilt over her brother being abandoned despite also being Force-sensitive