So what's next? Yet another KOTFE/ET cringe fest?

[Hrafnhildur]

Hi. 

Gotta say this, even if many of you will be very angry on me : KOTFE/ET was a cringe fest for NFU classes and honestly i hope we don't get back to that. 

Scoundrel.. listening to a dead guy talking about the Force and being like : " bruh.. i don't care.. "

Trooper .. same FU dead guy telling me that Emperor Big Bad Guy has emptied himself of emotion : .. " mmmkay, but he's still not immune to a bullet in his ugly Halloween pumpkin head, isn't he? "

Imperial Agent .. how the duck is the soap opera featuring an old decrepite woman who failed as a mother, wife and Zakuul Knight the business of an Imperial agent?? Where is the "cloak and dagger" stuff? 

And now.. the datacron thing, no one seems to realize the only guilty person is the more-dumb-than-the-regulation-allows " Padawan" who apparently has learned jack and squat from her "Master" and was naive enough to give a powerful artifact to a blood-thirsty moron surrounded by guys who have the same level of intelligence as Nem'ros beastmaster ( release the beasts HOHOHO guy) .. 

So.. you people really want that? Really want to log on your trooper, smuggler or agent and scratch your heads asking yourselves " how the duck is this story any of my business? " .

Cause i don't. 

One solution, different story lines for FU and NFU, problem solved. 

 

[Anhkriva]

34 minutes ago, Hrafnhildur said:

Hi. 

Gotta say this, even if many of you will be very angry on me : KOTFE/ET was a cringe fest for NFU classes and honestly i hope we don't get back to that. 

 

Is there anyone who denies that these expansions made no sense for NFU classes?

On a side note, labeling an opinion that everyone or almost everyone agrees with as unpopular or controversial is a terribly irritating trend. I hope it goes out of fashion soon.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Anhkriva

[Whykara]

4 hours ago, Hrafnhildur said:

One solution, different story lines for FU and NFU, problem solved. 

Absolutely. My Sith don't care about mando infighting and my bounty hunter doesn't care about Jedi shenanigans. 

[sharpenedstick]

21 hours ago, Hrafnhildur said:

Gotta say this, even if many of you will be very angry on me : KOTFE/ET was a cringe fest and honestly i hope we don't get back to that. 

Fixed.

[Setta]

On 12/20/2023 at 6:49 AM, Hrafnhildur said:

Hi. 

Gotta say this, even if many of you will be very angry on me : KOTFE/ET was a cringe fest for NFU classes and honestly i hope we don't get back to that. 

Scoundrel.. listening to a dead guy talking about the Force and being like : " bruh.. i don't care.. "

Trooper .. same FU dead guy telling me that Emperor Big Bad Guy has emptied himself of emotion : .. " mmmkay, but he's still not immune to a bullet in his ugly Halloween pumpkin head, isn't he? "

Imperial Agent .. how the duck is the soap opera featuring an old decrepite woman who failed as a mother, wife and Zakuul Knight the business of an Imperial agent?? Where is the "cloak and dagger" stuff? 

And now.. the datacron thing, no one seems to realize the only guilty person is the more-dumb-than-the-regulation-allows " Padawan" who apparently has learned jack and squat from her "Master" and was naive enough to give a powerful artifact to a blood-thirsty moron surrounded by guys who have the same level of intelligence as Nem'ros beastmaster ( release the beasts HOHOHO guy) .. 

So.. you people really want that? Really want to log on your trooper, smuggler or agent and scratch your heads asking yourselves " how the duck is this story any of my business? " .

Cause i don't. 

One solution, different story lines for FU and NFU, problem solved. 

 

I don't think anyone will be angry, but I don't particularly agree with all your points either.  Before I explain why, first I want to acknowledge that, yes KotFE / KotET is a 100% more suited for a force user than anything else, there's no getting around this. They will always make more sense as the protagonists here than the other 4 none force users I'm not trying to say otherwise.  What I am saying is that the none force users can be justified. That said, there is also precedence in the SW lore that a Sith spirits could poses you.  Generally they take over, but in this case it seems that did not happen for plot reasons, and instead actually makes you stronger. That said let's start with Trooper cause that's my main.

Trooper's job (if you're light side anyways) is to protect the Republic.   That's their core belief first and foremost.  You are for all intents and purposes Captain America without the shield. Hell the guy who voices Cap in the marvel cartoons (and I believe some marvel games) voices the Trooper here too. The story works from a perspective of you're trying to save the Republic as a guy who's lead a special units team, and expands that to a full blown military operation.  You might not be as competent in straight up combat as a Jedi Battlemaster, or a Sith Lord but what you lack in force powers you make up for in tactics, military knowledge, and probably better leadership skills (debatable I suppose on this last part, but that's my personal belief).  Which is what a lot of the war vs. Zakuul and the kids is about. The story still works, probably better than the other none force using classes with the exception of IA who's about on par (maybe better?). Now if you're a dark side trooper who's all out for themselves, than the allure to rule a new empire might still be something you're interested in, and you have more or less the skills to pull this off, especially if you're going to channel Valkorian's force powers through you.

Next the Imperial Agent.  Similar to the trooper in some ways, but also very different in others.  The IA could have a lot of motivations for why they're doing what they're doing.  They could be a patriot.  They could be self serving and want to rule.  They could just want to watch as more force users off themselves in combat for their own amusement.  Really the IA has the most diversity for why they're doing what they're doing.  However they in some ways are also the best suited for taking on Zakuul.  They have cunning, guile, connections, and several other skills and talents that help them mount up a resistance vs Zakuul.  They're schemers, and planners and that goes a long way here.

Next the Bounty Hunter.  I suppose this could be looked through a couple of different lenses.  1) As a bounty hunter you live for the hunt, same if you become a Mandalorian.  You could look at it as motivation further increase your rep by taking out the most powerful people in the galaxy.  Or 2) again you could look at it from the perspective of the allure of taking over an empire.  I don't believe the bounty hunter displays the skills that the trooper or the imperial agent do in organizing a resistance.  However the bounty hunter above all else is a survivor.  Somehow they defy the odds, and get things done no matter who they're up against.

Last and most definitely least is the smuggler.  Look I love this class.  It's fun, it's story is amusing, but yea I for the life of me don't see much here in how it fits into the KotFE / KotET story.  I suppose similar to the agent the smuggler could be said to have some contacts to get things going, they know how to get stuff from point A to their base to arm the people they need too to make this war work.  Why though?  Well other than making money in all this chaos idk.  Even as a light side smuggler, they don't come off as overly patriotic. Everything seems to be about money, and there's a lot of money to be made in a war.  So I suppose that's that. 

Now is this completely accurate?  Definitely not. Even though I make arguments for how the none force users could be seen, to fit into the roles and make the story work. Ultimately it doesn't matter.  Because a, I will kill everything Sith with a short fuse, still ends up with the same contacts, same amount of personal in the army, still has plans that will work, because Lana and Theron are there to hold your hand instead of showing off the classes' strengths in coming up with the plans themselves. The game shoehorns everything in the same way.  But if you were looking at this from a different angle of what are these classes actually good at, you could easily justify the strengths and motivations of none force users and why they work. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Setta

[Anhkriva]

31 minutes ago, Setta said:

I don't think anyone will be angry, but I don't particularly agree with all your points either.  Before I explain why, first I want to acknowledge that, yes KotFE / KotET is a 100% more suited for a force user than anything else, there's no getting around this. They will always make more sense as the protagonists here than the other 4 none force users I'm not trying to say otherwise.  What I am saying is that the none force users can be justified. That said, there is also precedence in the SW lore that a Sith spirits could poses you.  Generally they take over, but in this case it seems that did not happen for plot reasons, and instead actually makes you stronger. That said let's start with Trooper cause that's my main.

Trooper's job (if you're light side anyways) is to protect the Republic.   That's their core belief first and foremost.  You are for all intents and purposes Captain America without the shield. Hell the guy who voices Cap in the marvel cartoons (and I believe some marvel games) voices the Trooper here too. The story works from a perspective of you're trying to save the Republic as a guy who's lead a special units team, and expands that to a full blown military operation.  You might not be as competent in straight up combat as a Jedi Battlemaster, or a Sith Lord but what you lack in force powers you make up for in tactics, military knowledge, and probably better leadership skills (debatable I suppose on this last part, but that's my personal belief).  Which is what a lot of the war vs. Zakuul and the kids is about. The story still works, probably better than the other none force using classes with the exception of IA who's about on par (maybe better?). Now if you're a dark side trooper who's all out for themselves, than the allure to rule a new empire might still be something you're interested in, and you have more or less the skills to pull this off, especially if you're going to channel Valkorian's force powers through you.

Next the Imperial Agent.  Similar to the trooper in some ways, but also very different in others.  The IA could have a lot of motivations for why they're doing what they're doing.  They could be a patriot.  They could be self serving and want to rule.  They could just want to watch as more force users off themselves in combat for their own amusement.  Really the IA has the most diversity for why they're doing what they're doing.  However they in some ways are also the best suited for taking on Zakuul.  They have cunning, guile, connections, and several other skills and talents that help them mount up a resistance vs Zakuul.  They're schemers, and planners and that goes a long way here.

Next the Bounty Hunter.  I suppose this could be looked through a couple of different lenses.  1) As a bounty hunter you live for the hunt, same if you become a Mandalorian.  You could look at it as motivation further increase your rep by taking out the most powerful people in the galaxy.  Or 2) again you could look at it from the perspective of the allure of taking over an empire.  I don't believe the bounty hunter displays the skills that the trooper or the imperial agent do in organizing a resistance.  However the bounty hunter above all else is a survivor.  Somehow they defy the odds, and get things done no matter who they're up against.

Last and most definitely least is the smuggler.  Look I love this class.  It's fun, it's story is amusing, but yea I for the life of me don't see much here in how it fits into the KotFE / KotET story.  I suppose similar to the agent the smuggler could be said to have some contacts to get things going, they know how to get stuff from point A to their base to arm the people they need too to make this war work.  Why though?  Well other than making money in all this chaos idk.  Even as a light side smuggler, they don't come off as overly patriotic. Everything seems to be about money, and there's a lot of money to be made in a war.  So I suppose that's that. 

Now is this completely accurate?  Definitely not. Even though I make arguments for how the none force users could be seen, to fit into the roles and make the story work. Ultimately it doesn't matter.  Because a, I will kill everything Sith with a short fuse, still ends up with the same contacts, same amount of personal in the army, still has plans that will work, because Lana and Theron are there to hold your hand instead of showing off the classes' strengths in coming up with the plans themselves. The game shoehorns everything in the same way.  But if you were looking at this from a different angle of what are these classes actually good at, you could easily justify the strengths and motivations of none force users and why they work. 

Personally, I think a bounty hunter and a smuggler are a better match than a trooper and an agent. The ability to organize the resistance movement is unnecessary because Lana and Theron manage everything anyway. Our role is to be the face of the resistance movement and BH and Sm are famous throughout the galaxy due to their achievements, Trooper and especially the Agent are practically anonymous due to the nature of their work. Who will find it easier to attract volunteers willing to die for us, the most recognizable mercenary in the galaxy or the commander of a unit whose activities are super secret?

[Setta]

12 minutes ago, Anhkriva said:

Personally, I think a bounty hunter and a smuggler are a better match than a trooper and an agent. The ability to organize the resistance movement is unnecessary because Lana and Theron manage everything anyway. Our role is to be the face of the resistance movement and BH and Sm are famous throughout the galaxy due to their achievements, Trooper and especially the Agent are practically anonymous due to the nature of their work. Who will find it easier to attract volunteers willing to die for us, the most recognizable mercenary in the galaxy or the commander of a unit whose activities are super secret?

That's actually a very good point, I had never considered. Idk if that makes them better qualified, over the experience / skills & talents the trooper or ia bring by the nature of their job, (so agree to disagree on them being "better") but at the very least it's certain a massive gap closer in it's own right, that makes things a lot more even overall, I will give you that and a +1.  And yea Lana & Theron managing everything is the downfall of KotFE / KotET because if they had just done a minor script rewrite and recorded a few more lines about who says what, it could have made the none force using classes a lot more competent in comparison to the force users by making them more tactical and leader like while not being the powerhouse the force users are, and end up needing help dealing with the logistical side.   But well it is what it is I suppose.

[GeneralGyro]

the throne saga was weird. we came off the heals of the best expansion we ever had with pvp, raids, world bosses and a fantastic story with three planets, rishi, yavin 4, ziost and dead ziost, 

 

we go from that, they get a huge amount of cash and instead of doing a second expansion the scale of revan if not more so, we get fancy shmancy chapters with corridors, no true planets and no operations or pvp content. which led to a futher decline of the playerbase and then we got piece meal updates with daily areas posing as planets since

[voshara]

I didn't have a problem with NFU. Guess it just depends on how you look at it. 

Happy Holidays  ❤️

[BulbulusTheGreat]

i know this is hot take and people like to bandwagon hate KOTFE but in all honestly we could only hope for a great expansion like KOTFE to be a thing again but nah, sadly i don't think we'll get another great story like KOTFE or characters like it had or even the dialogue, we're currently stuck in being NPC's in someone elses story, not commanders.


that being said kessan was improvement from voss, but something as great as KOTFE again? doubtful.

Edited December 21, 2023 by BulbulusTheGreat

[sharpenedstick]

People hate on KOTFE/KOTET because it was bad by basically any metric, and the few defenders it has have no real understanding beyond their own personal play experience, which is why they don't understand how it was so harmful for the game. It's been explained before, but I'll lay it out again because it can be useful as a teachable moment.

1. It was a hamfisted attempt to force what had previously been sixteen discreet stories into one universal epic. Not only is the non-FU issue very well known, but even for the force users it had minimal relevance to the previous stories except for JK. Internally, it was the path forward that justified eliminating individual (or even semi-individual/grouped) storylines. This was ultimately a false economy. Yes, more storylines take more dev time. But they also create more playtime. Many people play multiple or even all of the stories. Remember DvL? That event was essentially "play the entire game again." If they had made the individual stories, people would have played them and that would have aided retention.

2. They completely destroyed the scale of the game by having us defeat an IMMORTAL GALAXY EATING FORCE GHOST. Every "galactic threat" has been trivial by comparison. They also gave us leadership of an institution that was strong enough to overthrow the Eternal Empire, a state that itself subjugated the entire galaxy in less than five years. You can't do that in an MMO, when the playable content relies on repetition. "Oh, you're the new eternal emperor? Cool! Can you get me five rat skins?"

3. They sunk all their effort into a deviation the majority community doesn't want. I get Pub v Imp is tired to some people, but it's what most players want. How do we know this? We see virtually zero calls to return to Zakuul or to create another non-pub v imp focus.

4. Although the VO was well done and some of the chapters were good, for the most part the writing was not strong. The focus was too much on the IGEFG. Felt very much like an RPG campaign where the DM just loves to death their little pet NPC, so we get to sit there and watch them.

5. The game play was somehow worse than the story. Endless three-man waves of ccing skytroopers. Stealth detectors everywhere. The glacially paced walker. Having to repeat Star Fortresses six times?!

6. Funneling sixteen previously separate stories into one meant essentially that new companions were going to trump old. This is why the only romances that got meaningful content post KOTET were with Lana or Theron or some other non-class companion. Because the devs had to write for a unified story, and that would either have meant picking between class companions that might not be relevant to people, or going with a new companion that was relevant to all. If you chose to renew your romance with your class companion when you rediscovered them, congratulations that is content that you will never receive any support for ever again until the heat death of the universe.

7. It was waaaaaaaaaaaaay too long. I don't have accurate info here, but anecdotally I have not seen people defend its replayability. And yet, when grinding an alt, if you don't want the choice flags auto skip gives you, then you have to grind it. This has the perverse effect of disincentivizing alt play. I have several alts that are essentially perma-paused because I don't want the auto-skip choices, but I also don't want to wade through this junk again.

8. It represented years of dev resources, and it is doing virtually nothing for the game today. The events of KOTET should ring through the ages, as they were so monumental. But the expac is so unpopular, that even though reusing those location assets would be efficient, nobody wants to return to Zakuul.

I know some people liked it. I get that when you hear it's not well done, that makes you feel as though people are saying you're stupid to like it. You're not. Everyone has a right to their subjective preferences.

But the simple fact is the expansion was not well done, it wasn't (and isn't) good for the game, and it is directly tied to many of the issues we see in the lackluster story developments since.

Edited December 22, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[Nee-Elder]

1 hour ago, sharpenedstick said:

People hate on KOTFE/KOTET because it was bad by basically any metric,

Some very vocal forum users "hate" it, yes.   But you're also over-presuming your own personal experience speaks for the "majority" of X amount of players.  Furthermore, you're also forgetting the harsh but true fact:  Insatiable players like you  aren't for whom KOTET/KOTFE  was created.

Heck, once EA caved almost immediately and went  Free-To-Pay ( Cartel Market cash grab reskins x infinity )  most of the entire SWTOR stockpile of story-content isn't  even geared ( pun intended ) toward players like you.  Nor toward loyal 2011 beta "sandbox SWG" type $ubscribers like me for that matter;  save for a few paltry crumbs of non-themepark exception.

1 hour ago, sharpenedstick said:

and the few defenders it has have no real understanding beyond their own personal play experience

Check my post-history and you'll see i'm VERY critical of BioWare/Broadsword  for many many years about many many many topics.

But feel free to call me a  KOTET/KOTFE  "defender" , since imho  as far as true expansions go,  it def. delivered actual  significant story content.  ( which is more than i can say for whatever you wanna call  what we've been getting these past few years )

The 1st time i played it ( as Jedi Sage ) having no spoilers at all  other than the amazing trailer from 'Blur Studios' ,  i thought it was EPIC  Star Wars content and i loved every single minute of it.   So much that i've not only repeated ALL  chapters again 7 more times on 7 different characters , but also  finished it on  master-mode. ( solo'd  except for 2 impossibly overtuned boss fights ) .   And i'm currently on my 9th run of it again, this time on my Smuggler.

1 hour ago, sharpenedstick said:

 why it was so harmful for the game.

That's a debatable hypothetical  of course,  with zero chance of ever being conclusive.

Plus, i would argue the following utterly ridiculous changes/decisions were wayyyyyy more "harmful" ...

• getting rid of  'skill trees'
• ignoring GSF
• practically obliterating Crafting
•  the so called combat  "pruning"
•  changing how gearing works over & over & over again so much that now people think gearing = "content"
•  removing  DvL super-bosses & systems , whilst making some empty "promise"  it would come back but yet it still hasn't
•  eradicating 'Ranked' PVP completely ( instead of just doing the Ranked/Regs merge )
•  allowing the "economy" to get so bad ( until recent drastic GTN + Taxes )
•  refusal to PERMA-ban  cheaters, dupers, win-traders, etc.
•  total obsession with all things Cartel Market ( instead of more balance between transient profit$  vs.  MMO longterm player driven items like schematics & mini-games ( like Sabacc!  )

.... Need i go on?

1 hour ago, sharpenedstick said:

It's been explained before, but I'll lay it out again because it can be useful as a teachable moment.

i respect your list & efforts , but you're just as opinionated/jaded as anyone else is around here.

In other words: easy with the whole condescending  "teachable moment"  schtick  lol  we all have our various ( and vocal ) points-of-view.

Divided?  Perhaps.  But nevertheless equal.

1 hour ago, sharpenedstick said:

1. It was a hamfisted attempt to force what had previously been sixteen discreet stories into one universal epic.

Not only is the non-FU issue very well known, but even for the force users it had minimal relevance to the previous stories except for JK.

Both  very fair points ^  yep.

And i hear ya on the whole  non-Force-user aspect.  Obviously, it would've been much better had BioWare  the time/money/interest  in writing additional  story tracks for  Smuggler/BH/Operative/Trooper  , relating to  Valkorian/Arcann/Vaylin   *powers* .

1 hour ago, sharpenedstick said:

2. They completely destroyed the scale of the game by having us defeat an IMMORTAL GALAXY EATING FORCE GHOST. Every "galactic threat" has been trivial by comparison.

Also a fair point ^ ,  although i'm not exactly sure how they (BioWare and/or Broadsword )  could've gotten around that situation.

Other than introducing  another  super duper  even more dangerous and original "galactic threat" ?*

i dunno ... i'd have to ponder a bit more about it.

*Maybe lock your character in a room with  Fleet genchat  politics bots + DK toxic trolls?

1 hour ago, sharpenedstick said:

7. It was waaaaaaaaaaaaay too long. I don't have accurate info here, but anecdotally I have not seen people defend its replayability.

One players  "waaaaaaaaaay too long"  is another player's  EPIC JOURNEY!

But anyways, see above my earlier reply about  "replayability" .   I do hear ya though , cuz  again i've done it almost 9 times now on 9 diff toons ...but that's over the past 8 YEARS. ( i always need a break between characters before i jump right into my next complete story progression catch-up-to-current )

1 hour ago, sharpenedstick said:

8. It represented years of dev resources, and it is doing virtually nothing for the game today.

Not true , since you're again forgetting about all the NEW players who come into this game without any bitterness  nor knowledge of  forums.

They just wanna play  Star Wars and so when they get to KOTET/KOTFE  for their 1st time ( usually as Force users )  they tend to enjoy it that 1st time thru.

Therefore, from EA's eyes, it's still  technically  repeatable content.  ( especially since if you wanna skip it , it costs you both in  money$$$  and in  character development/choices being done for you ) .

1 hour ago, sharpenedstick said:

But the simple fact is the expansion was not well done, it wasn't (and isn't) good for the game, and it is directly tied to many of the issues we see in the lackluster story developments since.

First,  your OPINION isn't "fact" , no matter how well you articulate it.  ( And btw, i really enjoyed reading your arguments & points within this post today )

Secondly,  i sorta get what you're saying but i also don't believe ALL of the storylines  since year 2015 ( KOTET/KOTFE ) have been totally "lackluster" .   The problem imo was with EA in general and certain subsequent  fundamental  core game choices  made by BioWare.  Not  necessarily caused by that ^ story expansion.  More so caused by unfortunate & misguided  code decisions to try "fixing what ain't broken" ...continuously.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Nee-Elder
Reason: spelling & grammar

[DWho]

1 hour ago, sharpenedstick said:

1. It was a hamfisted attempt to force what had previously been sixteen discreet stories into one universal epic.

Actually it was Rise of the Hutt Cartel (2.0) that carved it down from sixteen to two (Pub and Imp) which was reduced further in Revan to just 1 storyline. So it is untrue to state that KotFE "caused" the change to a single storyline. It just folowed on from 3.0

[SoyElSenado]

1 hour ago, DWho said:

Actually it was Rise of the Hutt Cartel (2.0) that carved it down from sixteen to two (Pub and Imp) which was reduced further in Revan to just 1 storyline. So it is untrue to state that KotFE "caused" the change to a single storyline. It just folowed on from 3.0

Kotfe combined all of the player characters into one character, the "Outlander." This was a bad decision. Prior to that, even with the same overall narratives in ROTHC and SOR, there was still a distinct identity for each of the 4 player classes per faction. 

[DWho]

44 minutes ago, SoyElSenado said:

there was still a distinct identity for each of the 4 player classes per faction. 

That's stretching it quite a bit. There was very little if any difference in gameplay (you could just as easily have called the character Imp or Pub and it would have been the same). "Outlander was just a name to say that the chracter was not from Zakuul. There were times in KotFE as well where there were "shout outs" to previous class play so, pretty much the same as 2.0 and 3.0.

[sharpenedstick]

2 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

your OPINION isn't "fact"

Certainly my opinion is not fact. But KOTET was not well done, and that is a fact. Not only for all the reasons I laid out, but also as we have seen, it was a model of both storytelling and content organization that has been completely abandoned. If KOTET/KOTFE was the raging success that its few supporters on the forums claim it is, we'd have seen future development go along the same lines.

Game developers don't abandon their pet projects voluntarily. Devs are obsessed with making the game they want, and they do not really deviate except in the face of absolute necessity (though typically, it's more that they are canned and the next group putz around with their pet projects, while the players long standing issues are left to fester).

Again, it's fine if people like the expansion. Go have fun, if that's what's fun to you. But the fact is, it's not swelling the game's numbers. It's not something players are asking to see more of. It's not something the devs are even trying to do anymore. You can imagine, if you'd like, that that's inspite of the great success KOTET is, but a far more reasonable conclusion is that the KOTET/KOTFE storylines are not what the player base wants, the chapters method of content organization is not how the devs want to release future material, and that the game would have been better off without it.

2 hours ago, DWho said:

Actually it was Rise of the Hutt Cartel (2.0) that carved it down from sixteen to two (Pub and Imp) which was reduced further in Revan to just 1 storyline.

Revan (a character somehow more played out than Malgus, if such a thing can be believed) is directly connected to KOTET. And KOTET was in works during Hutt Cartel. KOTET/KOTFE is a project that took years to develop. They knew where they were going when they funneled down to one. Rise of the Hutt Cartel may have been the content transition, but from a development standpoint they already knew where they were headed.

[OlBuzzard]

3 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

Some very vocal forum users "hate" it, yes.   But you're also over-presuming your own personal experience speaks for the "majority" of X amount of players.  Furthermore, you're also forgetting the harsh but true fact:  Insatiable players like you  aren't for whom KOTET/KOTFE  was created.

Heck, once EA caved almost immediately and went  Free-To-Pay ( Cartel Market cash grab reskins x infinity )  most of the entire SWTOR stockpile of story-content isn't  even geared ( pun intended ) toward players like you.  Nor toward loyal 2011 beta "sandbox SWG" type $ubscribers like me for that matter;  save for a few paltry crumbs of non-themepark exception.

Check my post-history and you'll see i'm VERY critical of BioWare/Broadsword  for many many years about many many many topics.

But feel free to call me a  KOTET/KOTFE  "defender" , since imho  as far as true expansions go,  it def. delivered actual  significant story content.  ( which is more than i can say for whatever you wanna call  what we've been getting these past few years )

The 1st time i played it ( as Jedi Sage ) having no spoilers at all  other than the amazing trailer from 'Blur Studios' ,  i thought it was EPIC  Star Wars content and i loved every single minute of it.   So much that i've not only repeated ALL  chapters again 7 more times on 7 different characters , but also  finished it on  master-mode. ( solo'd  except for 2 impossibly overtuned boss fights ) .   And i'm currently on my 9th run of it again, this time on my Smuggler.

That's a debatable hypothetical  of course,  with zero chance of ever being conclusive.

Plus, i would argue the following utterly ridiculous changes/decisions were wayyyyyy more "harmful" ...

• getting rid of  'skill trees'
• ignoring GSF
• practically obliterating Crafting
•  the so called combat  "pruning"
•  changing how gearing works over & over & over again so much that now people think gearing = "content"
•  removing  DvL super-bosses & systems , whilst making some empty "promise"  it would come back but yet it still hasn't
•  eradicating 'Ranked' PVP completely ( instead of just doing the Ranked/Regs merge )
•  allowing the "economy" to get so bad ( until recent drastic GTN + Taxes )
•  refusal to PERMA-ban  cheaters, dupers, win-traders, etc.
•  total obsession with all things Cartel Market ( instead of more balance between transient profit$  vs.  MMO longterm player driven items like schematics & mini-games ( like Sabacc!  )

.... Need i go on?

i respect your list & efforts , but you're just as opinionated/jaded as anyone else is around here.

In other words: easy with the whole condescending  "teachable moment"  schtick  lol  we all have our various ( and vocal ) points-of-view.

Divided?  Perhaps.  But nevertheless equal.

Both  very fair points ^  yep.

And i hear ya on the whole  non-Force-user aspect.  Obviously, it would've been much better had BioWare  the time/money/interest  in writing additional  story tracks for  Smuggler/BH/Operative/Trooper  , relating to  Valkorian/Arcann/Vaylin   *powers* .

Also a fair point ^ ,  although i'm not exactly sure how they (BioWare and/or Broadsword )  could've gotten around that situation.

Other than introducing  another  super duper  even more dangerous and original "galactic threat" ?*

i dunno ... i'd have to ponder a bit more about it.

*Maybe lock your character in a room with  Fleet genchat  politics bots + DK toxic trolls?

One players  "waaaaaaaaaay too long"  is another player's  EPIC JOURNEY!

But anyways, see above my earlier reply about  "replayability" .   I do hear ya though , cuz  again i've done it almost 9 times now on 9 diff toons ...but that's over the past 8 YEARS. ( i always need a break between characters before i jump right into my next complete story progression catch-up-to-current )

Not true , since you're again forgetting about all the NEW players who come into this game without any bitterness  nor knowledge of  forums.

They just wanna play  Star Wars and so when they get to KOTET/KOTFE  for their 1st time ( usually as Force users )  they tend to enjoy it that 1st time thru.

Therefore, from EA's eyes, it's still  technically  repeatable content.  ( especially since if you wanna skip it , it costs you both in  money$$$  and in  character development/choices being done for you ) .

First,  your OPINION isn't "fact" , no matter how well you articulate it.  ( And btw, i really enjoyed reading your arguments & points within this post today )

Secondly,  i sorta get what you're saying but i also don't believe ALL of the storylines  since year 2015 ( KOTET/KOTFE ) have been totally "lackluster" .   The problem imo was with EA in general and certain subsequent  fundamental  core game choices  made by BioWare.  Not  necessarily caused by that ^ story expansion.  More so caused by unfortunate & misguided  code decisions to try "fixing what ain't broken" ...continuously.

YUP!

There are a hand full of folks still around that still hate KotFE / ET .

IMO the real disaster behind it was the way all of the companions were done away with all at once.  Gone!  POOF!  Then there was the mechanics behind it  (the gearing system was horrible).  I like a lot of the story behind it.  I REALLY like the idea that it was repeatable and I could go back and try parts of it at a harder setting.  I kind of wish we could do some of the newer areas like that today  (but that will never happen).

AND you are ALSO correct on the areas that have been a LOT more harmful to the game than what we went through with KotFE / ET.  That list (though not complete) is pretty much right on!  I would also very STRONGLY agree that if the RIGHT people inside of EA cared as much for the game development as they did the CM and their cash grab mentality SWTOR would be in a LOT better shape today!

Overall ...  I really think highly of your post!  I wish I could give you a PLUS 10 on the reaction thing!  

[Nee-Elder]

28 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

Certainly my opinion is not fact. But KOTET was not well done, and that is a fact.

Again, that is merely your opinion, since you clearly have a different definition of "well done" .

My opinion is:  KOTFE/KOTET was indeed very well done.

30 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

Again, it's fine if people like the expansion. Go have fun, if that's what's fun to you. But the fact is, it's not swelling the game's numbers. It's not something players are asking to see more of.

lol it was released over 8 years ago dude, so what numbers do you expect it to "swell" now in '24?   smh , those sentences ^ are just more  speculation & generalization on your part , disguised as  "facts"  you seem to be proclaiming/believing.

Like i said, i really did enjoy reading your earlier post,  because a couple of your points are legit , but it's obvious to me now that you're not actually interested in any sort of healthy debate of differing perspectives/opinions.

Especially since all you chose to do was cherry pick ONE tiny aspect of my rather lengthy & very respectful reply.

The irony is, that one phrase you quoted of mine  is indeed....a FACT.

[BulbulusTheGreat]

3 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

Some very vocal forum users "hate" it, yes.   But you're also over-presuming your own personal experience speaks for the "majority" of X amount of players.  Furthermore, you're also forgetting the harsh but true fact:  Insatiable players like you  aren't for whom KOTET/KOTFE  was created.

Heck, once EA caved almost immediately and went  Free-To-Pay ( Cartel Market cash grab reskins x infinity )  most of the entire SWTOR stockpile of story-content isn't  even geared ( pun intended ) toward players like you.  Nor toward loyal 2011 beta "sandbox SWG" type $ubscribers like me for that matter;  save for a few paltry crumbs of non-themepark exception.

Check my post-history and you'll see i'm VERY critical of BioWare/Broadsword  for many many years about many many many topics.

But feel free to call me a  KOTET/KOTFE  "defender" , since imho  as far as true expansions go,  it def. delivered actual  significant story content.  ( which is more than i can say for whatever you wanna call  what we've been getting these past few years )

The 1st time i played it ( as Jedi Sage ) having no spoilers at all  other than the amazing trailer from 'Blur Studios' ,  i thought it was EPIC  Star Wars content and i loved every single minute of it.   So much that i've not only repeated ALL  chapters again 7 more times on 7 different characters , but also  finished it on  master-mode. ( solo'd  except for 2 impossibly overtuned boss fights ) .   And i'm currently on my 9th run of it again, this time on my Smuggler.

That's a debatable hypothetical  of course,  with zero chance of ever being conclusive.

 

well said, this is the fact people struggle to accept about this really, you'll love or hate this expansion based on what type of play style you like, we can hate bandwagon and go back and forth on DLC's good and bads but when it comes down to it this is the main thing (to me at least), i like solo RPG's more than i like MMO's in fact SWTOR is my only MMO exactly becuse of stories like KOTFE/ET, i don't mind playing with others and i like open world planets and i can occassionally do MMO stuff and  in fact ill agree with some points against KOTFE, like zakuul would be cooler if it had planetaries and missions and story doesn't really fit for smuggler trooper and agent but i do think it does for bh esp if you're mando rping but anyway what im trying to say that in general ill take good story with great characters and epic story which KOTFE was over bad story with MMO stuff in it any day, idk what actual precentage of people who hate vs who love it (i think most people are indifferent from my personal experiences and talks on fleet chat and discord about it) but its a fact that SWTOR has a loooooooooot of solo rpg story players and thats what KOTFE was for.

edit: im exactly what you described with the "Not true , since you're again forgetting about all the NEW players who come into this game without any bitterness  nor knowledge of  forums.

They just wanna play  Star Wars and so when they get to KOTET/KOTFE  for their 1st time ( usually as Force users )  they tend to enjoy it that 1st time thru."

i joined forums fairly recently, joined game in early 2022, didn't even know what KOTFE is until i had to get a sub to keep playing i happly paid sub for more story becuse i was already into the game for story and the story i already liked just got far better with KOTFE, really nothing else matters to me about this becuse people have 1000 different complaints but i enjoyed it and thats why i love it.

Edited December 22, 2023 by BulbulusTheGreat

[sharpenedstick]

41 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

Again, that is merely your opinion, since you clearly have a different definition of "well done" .

I didn't define well done. What I did instead is illustrate the ways it was not well done.

When you say a glass is broken, pointing to the shards is sufficient to establish that fact without first defining what constitutes broken.

41 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

8 years ago dude

Exactly. Eight years, and SWTOR doesn't use chapters and chapter groupings as release content forms. Eight years, and we don't re-use KOTET locations (except Odessen) for much of anything, the devs don't have the story revisit Zakuul itself or the ramifications of the KOTET/KOTFE story line.

Eight years, and we don't explore a region of space that contained a society with its own understanding of the Force and power sufficient to conquer the galaxy. Eight years and we don't care if the player became emperor. We don't care if a planet got eaten. We don't return to any of the KOTET narratives because the player base does not like them.

You can talk about how great you think KOTET is. The simple fact is everything after it ran so fast from it because the smell was horrible, and it's still lingering.

41 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

cherry pick ONE

That's not what cherry picking means. I didn't distort the nature of your position by finding a single solitary comment and use it to inaccurately reflect or ridicule you.

What I did was narrow the focus, because a point-by-point discussion of the type you're apparently invested in is not worth my time (I mean that in an explanatory rather than offensive manner) and also tends to derail threads. Please understand going forward if you continue, such narrowing is almost inevitable as I only respond to the parts that interest me sufficiently.

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[Nee-Elder]

7 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

You can talk about how great you think KOTET is.

i never once used the word "great"  in any of my layered posts,  but no matter because you seem to be incapable of accepting nuance.

i also don't think you even read my comprehensive reply  very thoroughly.   If you had, you wouldn't be misrepresenting  all that i typed into your own little over-simplified soundbite.  ( thereby ending all possibility of conversation )

8 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

as I only respond to the parts that interest me sufficiently.

Further validating my previous observation & realization about you & your agenda.

What's so interesting ( and funny ) is how inconsequential & moot your post-haste opinion on this subject truly is. ( since  'Broadsword'  does whatever the heck they wanna do anyway lol )

All  i've learned from your umm "teachable moment"   is  how easy it can be for me to get baited by the appearance of an actual earnest discussion.

Instead, what you actually seem to be offering with any further back&forth is sorta basic & boring.

[sharpenedstick]

8 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

comprehensive reply  very thoroughly.

I read it and I'm sorry you're upset that it took so little to dismiss. I can feel your frustration, and since I don't like knowing people are upset, I really do hope you can find the time for some mindfulness.

The reality of the KOTET's failures are so well known that earlier comments in the thread lamented how ubiquitous the criticism of it is here. I'm sorry you were not able to muster up any factual defenses for it. Rest assured, nobody denies that your subjective enjoyment of it constitutes a defense.

It is entirely valid to defend KOTET by saying you liked it. That's fantastic! I am in no way unironically happy for you that you were satisfied by what they offered.

But most obviously weren't, not only for all the reasons already listed, but also because we never ever went back to it, either as a method of content delivery or as a narrative focus. That's all there is that has to be said. We both know it, and we both know you've got nothing to say against it.

Edited December 22, 2023 by sharpenedstick

[Nee-Elder]

5 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

I read it and I'm sorry you're upset that it took so little to dismiss. I can feel your frustration, and since I don't like knowing people are upset,

ahh yes, now your posts continue to devolve.

Well, hate to break it to ya but you need to  reconfigure your senses.

There is nothing you could ever say on these silly but fun digital forums  that would ever "upset" me nor "frustrate" me.  ( Try  solo queue'ing as healer aka gank-magnet in ARENAS all day.  Now that is real gamer frustration.  )

tbqh,  you're just starting to project now.  ( forums 101 )

i don't mind  posting with you for however long it serves to entertain me , but rest assured: With each new  hostile reply toward me, whilst you blatantly ignore 99% of my ( and other posters ) points , all you're doing is continuing to reveal yourself to anyone reading.

9 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

The reality of the KOTET's failures are so well known that earlier comments in the thread lamented how ubiquitous the criticism of it is here.

tsk tsk , still so much to learn you have.   You think the typical vocal-minority on these barely used SWTOR forums  constitutes  "ubiquitous" .

11 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

. That's all there is that has to be said.  We both know it, and we both know you've got nothing to say against it.

My 1st reply says  already said everything i wanted to.  And the fact ( <---correct use of the word FACT )  that so far you still have yet to address any of my counterpoints  is further proof  of your previous eloquence being unfortunately empty.

Your very bitter ( for some odd reason )  OPINION is:  KOTFE/KOTET  "harmed" the game so much that it, and it alone, is why the game is  so what "ruined" now?

Well, my distilled opinion  is  twofold:  First, even though KOTFE/KOTET had it's flaws ( again, see my 1st reply where i actually agreed with you on non-Force-user aspect ) , there are just as many players i've met in 8 years  who have enjoyed that expansion as  have hated it.   And most actually just hate the  must-repeat-on-ALTs  portion ( to advance story & choices properly ) .  Secondly, if  hypothetically  that expansion did indeed "cause harm" to the game,  it's wayyyy lower on a very long list of  harmful  decisions.

You don't have any data nor internal metrics for past 8 years....and you never will.   All you have is a borderline confident OPINION, stated in proper sentences.  Hey that's more than most forum users have.

Anyways, i'm concerned you're just trying to troll me now and  frankly you're just not the type of poster from whom is worth getting a forum-warning.  No matter how "sharp" you seem to think your opinionated stick is.

[sharpenedstick]

3 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

tsk tsk , still so much to learn you have.   You think the typical vocal-minority on these barely used SWTOR forums  constitutes  "ubiquitous"

I'm not sure why you're so upset, but it is clearly impacting your reading comprehension.

I said the earlier comments in the thread were lamenting the ubiquity of criticism "here," meaning the forums. I've noticed this pattern about you were you get incredibly emotionally invested and it makes it so that you lose perspective.

I'm sure if you were calm, you would have caught "how ubiquitous the criticism of it is here" could have no other meaning than the population on the forums.

7 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

worth getting a forum-warning.

I would never report you, absent you going on some kind of bizarre racist tirade (which I have no reason to believe you ever would). Your opinions are deeply held, and I respect that you're worried it could lead you into prohibited behavior, but in my opinion reporting for things other than legit abuse is bush league.

[Nee-Elder]

2 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

I'm not sure why you're so upset,

Not  "upset" , just replying to your posts.

i know the "upset" thing is like your goto move , but  you're  poking up the wrong tree dude lol  i been here since 2011 beta  dealing with silly  devolving forum exchanges like yours  too many times to count.

At a certain time, i will probably get bored of you, i admit.

6 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

I said the earlier comments in the thread were lamenting the ubiquity of criticism "here," meaning the forums.

yep i know what you meant , but what i meant was:  Barely  anyone from the  TOTAL  playerbase  actually  uses these forums, much less posts on them ( like we do ) .

Therefore,  any  "ubiquity" , perceived or factual , is  worth about as much as the endless pit known as the *Suggestion Box* section.

Next you're gonna tell me we outta take a POLL !

9 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

. I've noticed this pattern about you were you get incredibly emotionally invested

i knew you were a fan.

10 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

 and it makes it so that you lose perspective.

My perspective is still right up there ^^ in clear typed words, for anyone ( including you ) who wants to acknowledge it with equal consideration.   Just like a couple of other posters in this thread have done already.

12 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

I'm sure if you were calm,

My PVP is done for the day, so i'm plenty "calm"  lol  i'm  alternating between shopping the new GTN ui  and these always reliable forums.

13 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

I would never report you,

First, if you did, i would never know about it.  Secondly, i never said "you" would do the reporting of my posts.  ( There is one particular person who often does, regardless of severity, as they have told me before. )

15 minutes ago, sharpenedstick said:

. Your opinions are deeply held, and I respect that you're worried it could lead you into prohibited behavior, but in my opinion reporting for things other than legit abuse is bush league.

And finally, at long last, we come full circle and are in agreement.