Kryptonomic Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 minute ago, Sumugi said: only to have it taken away again because of all the whiners and crybabies. This framing doesn't help, though, right? Because then someone else can claim that it's "whiners and crybabies" who only want to focus on Republic versus Empire. It's a pity gamers tend not to learn that polarizing statements really don't do much to help a conversation. Yet if gamers keep falling into these traps, then you can start to see how studios have a hard time navigating difference of opinion. Somewhat of a side note, but tangentially related, there's a great book called The Secret Science of Games. Two key topics of this book are the following: How to give feedback to game designers that they’ll actually listen to. Why asking players if a game is fun isn’t all that useful. Speaking to the more relevant topic, the book Fatal Alliance, which originally came out in June of 2010, was meant to show the Republic and Empire teaming up against a common foe and was used to gauge some fan response to the idea. This was specifically billed as an "Old Republic" book. It had nothing to do with KOTFE or KOTET but, as I've explained elsewhere, the idea of KOTFE / KOTET was actually established well before we actually got it. The Disney acquisition of Lucasfilm and, more particularly the announcement of Episode 7 coming out, required an immediate need for story content and thus the push for a KOTFE / KOTET tied back to the main story. My only point here is decisions about KOTFE / KOTET and then returning to something more similar to the vanilla class story structure was long in the planning. It had nothing to do with "whiners and crybabies" at the time. In fact, it's the opposite. It's why SWTOR has trouble moving in response to any story feedback, because so much was laid out beforehand. I think what we're seeing now is the issue: the previous material that was laid out and planned has run out. So they have to make up new stuff -- and that seems to be of variable quality. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traceguy Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sumugi said: Aside from KOTFE and KOTET, the entire game has been nothing but Republic vs Empire. Well, in Shadow of Revan, the Republic and the Empire end up working together, which is mainly why they still held some kind of truce to both be on Darth Marr's flag ship. Edited February 9 by Traceguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalnarius Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 On 12/19/2023 at 9:29 AM, Setta said: I agree with your sentiment I don't particularly agree with who the main villain should be here. The Jedi Lords. How would these be different than the current Sith Lords? I mean they're force users we could kill just as easily if not more so. Satele Shan arguably the strongest Jedi of this generation was trapped by the former emperor along with her students, barely holding on, and buying as much time as she could until we rescued her. If that's the best the Jedi (or at least one of the best) have what would we be afraid of? Heck, the Jedi & the Sith failed against Zakuul's force users, and scattered across the galaxy. I'm not sure why the remaining ones would be any good, or strong enough to exert their will on the galaxy. That said, yea we do need a new big bad, I'm just not sure what though as we've beaten everything under the sun from criminal low life, to an immortal emperor who consumed planets. Actually there is a big bad that they can do somewhat on the tier of Abeloth in terms of power that has actually been briefly seen in restricted sense during classic. Sel Makor the force demon on Voss that had the power to even make Vitiate look like nothing more than untrained Acolyte. But to the other sentiment the Jedi Lords didnt start happening until after Darth Ruin who was about 1000-1300 yrs after the Old Republic era. Sith actually did have a little bit of a rise during the era we are heading into actually in a sense they are a bit stronger than the Jedi Order as we are approaching the time Satele dies the jedi council is not even reformed yet barely talked about this expansion. Would say if anything happens neither the Jedi or the Sith can stand up the threats of the galaxy after getting beat by the Revanites and Zakuul as well as each other they have not recovered from their losses but sith even though the new Dark Council is weaker than when it had Malgus and Marr on it its stronger than the Jedi are at this point. Plus the fact we are at some point going to know what is up with the red haired padawan/jedi knight that was in echoes of oblivion. If she is in fact someone else or what because they left that way open for a possible return. Then there is the fact they said they had eventual plans for Jadus but said he would not return immediately as their plans for him were bigger. Whatever is up with Darth Nul we are getting glimpses that Vitiate may not be as defeated as we thought he was at the same time. Which i felt like if they were really going to make Vitiate a threat we need a raid x3 harder than R4 with Vitiate to be in same with Malgus if that was their plans for that. Both should have been raids. But what they are hinting at with Malgus is more along the lines there is something darker at work in both the Empire and Republic governments pulling the strings that the only way to break free from the endless cycle is to align with Malgus. making Malgus actually the anti-villain in ways that is actually somewhat true to his character. No i dont see Vitiate actually returning but during the announcement of Onslaught the devs did say there are 3 that never truly die. Those 3 being Revan, Vitiate and Malgus. 2 of those actually have had their send offs bringing them back would kinda cheapen the story for the other. Bringing Revan back again would cheapen how he was sent off and Vitiate would cheapen Revan's sacrifice much in the same way Vadar's sacrifice against Sideous was. Malgus however is not killed off just yet and I do think he will be needed for something bigger brewing that hasnt even made itself known. As for the mandalorian civil war i have no problem with the concept of the war the issue is that it shouldnt be taking main stage in a what was suppose to be the next saga after Vitiate's defeats. Basically everything from the moment Naga Sadow was defeated up until Echoes of Oblivion was 1 whole saga. Even Shadow of Revan, Kotfe, Kotet was a technically a trilogy that fed off each other. We still really know very little about the civil war other than what's her face has a bone to pick with shae for joining the alliance and the mandalorians actually working with the republic and empire. so the question becomes is she ancestor Krieses (Bo Katan and her sister the duchess). and with that war there needs to be the planet of Mandalore actually making its appearance into the game which it hasnt yet. But I cant see whats her face having anything to do with Malgus or any other force user because she didn't want the Mandalorians to be in service or aligned with the Alliance (reformed as whatever), Zakuul, Republic or Sith Empire. There is also another force out there that is left forgot about since Rise, The Hutt Cartel. That expansion even though it was paid for was easily done in less time than LotS and only focused on the Hutts for Makeb. For something that was suppose to be the rise of a threat that could challenge both Republic and Empire the Hutts have played little to no part out of Oggorubb, Toborro, Karagga in swtor thus far. Then there is the whole retcons to the Dathomirians now because of Ahsoka saying the Nightsisters/brothers as a people are far older than what they are. Could also a small force of Vongs that arrived during Swtor era much in the same way i think Canderous talked about in Kotor 2 but not on the scale of what would be during Luke's post RotJ. 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Kalnarius Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 3 hours ago, Traceguy said: Well, in Shadow of Revan, the Republic and the Empire end up working together, which is mainly why they still held some kind of truce to both be on Darth Marr's flag ship. Well technically it is not entirely true because Rise of the Hutt Cartel was suppose set up the Hutts as a threat to start taking territories over from both empire and republic but then we got Shadow of Revan and both Empire and Republic put aside their differences to stop Revan. So i would say Classic, Onslaught, Lots has been about Republic vs Empire. The rest of the game was to stop outside threats from threatening the war of Republic vs Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darcmoon Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 4 hours ago, Kalnarius said: Actually there is a big bad that they can do somewhat on the tier of Abeloth in terms of power that has actually been briefly seen in restricted sense during classic. Sel Makor the force demon on Voss that had the power to even make Vitiate look like nothing more than untrained Acolyte. Sel Makor was destroyed by the Jedi Knight in his/her storyline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setta Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 5 hours ago, Kalnarius said: Actually there is a big bad that they can do somewhat on the tier of Abeloth in terms of power that has actually been briefly seen in restricted sense during classic. Sel Makor the force demon on Voss that had the power to even make Vitiate look like nothing more than untrained Acolyte. I admit it's been years, since I played JK / SW story, but I swear one of them killed Sel Makor. In fact as I write this, I just noticed Darcmoon confirm the JK killing Sel so yea moving on. Quote Plus the fact we are at some point going to know what is up with the red haired padawan/jedi knight that was in echoes of oblivion. Yes, but the thing is I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of just beating the same villains over and over again. We beat Malgus like 3 times, the emperor 3+ times (depending on how you count it) I don't want to repeat this pattern with the kid, different body or not. We already fought her enough times. Now don't get me wrong I don't mind if she comes back in a different capacity just not as the big bad that we must stop, that would be lame. Quote Then there is the fact they said they had eventual plans for Jadus but said he would not return immediately as their plans for him were bigger I'd be fine with this to a point. If this is more along the lines of Jadus comes back after scheming for the last decade or how ever long it's been, cool. I just don't want him to be built up as this all powerful force, that has amassed a powerful army as to do his bidding, or if it's "my power has increased a 100 fold, I am more powerful than the emperor ever was".... that's just junk writing. Galaxy is struggling for resources after so many years of war, so pulling a fresh army out of thin air is poor writing, (and we don't need another Zakuul) becoming incredibly powerful is also horrible lazy writing. Like sure I expect him to get stronger, just not over the top levels of strength that I feel the writers would go with this. Now on the other hand if he comes back, and turns the player against the imps / pubs, gets you to destroy yourselves, sows chaos, then swoops in and starts taking over. Solid, I'm sold, would love to see at least a half competent villain be written and see where this goes, rather than my power level is over 9000 I have a massive army bla bla bla. Quote No i dont see Vitiate actually returning..... Bringing Revan back again would cheapen how he was sent off (snip) Let's just agree that these 3 do not need to come back. Let Revan rest, let the emperor stay dead, and let this plot that Malgus has be the last we see of him. It was fine to bring back Malgus after like 10 years, it's another to just keep using him over and over as a punching bag. Same with Vitiate, I really don't want to keep beating up grand pa again and again. Quote As for the mandalorian civil war i have no problem with the concept of the war the issue is that it shouldnt be taking main stage in a what was suppose to be the next saga after Vitiate's defeats.... There is also another force out there that is left forgot about since Rise, The Hutt Cartel. (snip) Bringing both these points up as my answer is intertwined here. I don't have a problem with a mando civil war per say. I have a massive problem with it's execution, and I'm going to explain why RotHC despite doing the same thing, did it way better. Mandos are basically none force using warriors, and the Hutts hired a bunch of mercenaries, who are roughly on that level, perhaps a little below, depending on your head canon. So threat wise Mandos and Mercs are not that far apart. However in RotHC the Hutts found an isotope that created actual threatening weapons. Top of the line stuff (which was the only thing competing with Zakuul tech once that war began). Heck it takes 8 to 16 top notch heroes to take down a single droid. There was also a real threat of the planet blowing up in short order, and put urgency on you either saving the people, or the planet so you can farm more Isotope for your own needs. The game immediately showed you the Macguffin, and why it was important. It told you what it could do, and let you know that they're basically just scratching the surface of the Isotope's potential. The mando civil war is basically you follow Shae in her vendetta against Heta. Why? Don't know don't care, you just do. Which is more of a her problem, not mine. But okay she's an ally and all, so I guess I can help out. The Macguffin is some scary thing, that we don't know about for 2 years. Just oh it's "bad". /Facepalm. What happened to show not tell? Why do I actually care about the Mando civil war if I'm an evil bastard who's out for himself? If my evil Sith just finds Shae annoying there's nothing in this for me. At least with RotHC, I can justify trying to save Makeb so we can farm Isotope 5, and end the Republic once and for all, especially after Darth Marr tells you we're on the back foot and now losing to the Republic, so we need this. Sold, I can make the necessary jump from point A to point B of why this is important for us, and enjoy said storyline. So yes the Hutts can come back and be a threat again, but really the problem is the writing, and I fear that the writers would give us a horrible story here all the same. The Hutts by themselves are no more threatening than Mandos, but one of these storylines made sense and the other does not. In fact a lot of the story lines lately have not made much sense to me. Quote Then there is the whole retcons to the Dathomirians now because of Ahsoka saying the Nightsisters/brothers as a people are far older than what they are. Could also a small force of Vongs that arrived during Swtor era much in the same way i think Canderous talked about in Kotor 2 but not on the scale of what would be during Luke's post RotJ. Last but not least. I didn't watch Ahsoka. Actually truth be told I gave up on a lot of SW stuff that Disney has a hand in. Mando S1 & S2 was about the extent of my enjoyment of Disney stuff, and even then at times it got very dumb. That said I'm okay with either of these being a threat. They're kinda brainless villains with their own gimmick that the heroes can struggle against for a little while. Undead hordes or force immune aliens that some of the most powerful users in the galaxy couldn't do much against. In fact it would be like the reverse Kofte, where the story would probably make more sense from a none force user instead. Also I suppose you could also say the Rakata can make a come back if you really wanted to find a way to spin that. 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recalcitrantIre Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) On 12/19/2023 at 7:07 AM, gasxero said: We should move on to the era where the Sith Empire has collapsed and the Republic (what's left of it anyway) is ruled over by Jedi Lords...the Galactic dark age that spanned 1000 years. the New Sith Wars start almost two thousand years after SWTOR's timeframe, the devs aren't just going to snap their fingers and radically change the entire game On 2/10/2024 at 1:07 AM, Sumugi said: Aside from KOTFE and KOTET, the entire game has been nothing but Republic vs Empire. the Black Hole pits us independently against a rogue Corellian criminal organization the Dread War is a storyline that spans from launch content to Oricon, following the Dread Masters' attempts to build their own empire, involving two daily areas, the seeker droid storyline and almost every single operation in the game up to the point of its conclusion (EV, TFB, SnV, DF, DP and technically KP because the territory losses Karagga is angry about are caused by the Dread Masters, and technically technically EV because the only reason the Empire was on Belsavis was to break the Dread Masters out but EV otherwise has no connection to the storyline) Makeb primarily focuses on the Hutt Cartel as antagonists with minimal Republic/Empire interaction, and the other 2.x content is the Shroud and Czerka the Forged Alliances flashpoints look like Republic vs Empire at first but they're actually a Revanite plot, and the Revanite focus continues through to Shadow of Revan, and Ziost is more about Vitiate than the backdrop conflict of the Republic invasion; and the Ravagers operation is a completely standalone raid against a group of Rishi pirates the return to the main faction conflict on Ossus in 5.10 didn't even last that long, the 6.x update content took sideways swerves into chasing a rogue Malgus and the start of a Mandalorian civil war that currently sits on par with the renewed faction "war" in terms of story updates dedicated to it not sure what insane faction war MMO you've been playing but SWTOR sure isnt it Edited February 11 by recalcitrantIre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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