Can we get free transfers off dead servers please?

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

16 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

If individual concerns were more important than the over all health of this game we would still have 209 servers and the game would have been shut down 10 years ago. Individual concerns are never going to be more important that keeping this game healthy and active.

Like it or not, individual concerns are what people make their decisions based on. People pay money to play this game. They're not paying so they can have fun, they're not paying so other people can have fun.

You also have to bare in mind, there are some people who have expressed repeatedly (and I am one of them), that they are of the notion that having only one server for the whole of the North American continent, which is several countries, The United States being the most populated among them, would be extremely bad for the health of the game.

I'm not saying that you don't believe what you are saying to be true, I'm sure you do, but some of us aren't so sure. You're arguments, I'm sure, make a great deal of sense to you, but so do the arguments of others to them.

I very much think that one server for NA would be disastrously bad for the health of the game. I think it would be the catalyst that starts the end of the game.

You're queue times being longer than you may like them to be, shouldn't supersede the overall health of the game.

See how that works?

We all have our own points of view. You may not agree with ours, but we're saying what we're saying for the same reason you're (presumably) saying what you're saying. It's what we think is best for the game at this juncture.

You did say something that I do agree with however. If the population gets to small they will have no choice but to merge servers. The fact that they haven't done so, said they're going to, or even hinted at the possibility, should say something.

They're gonna do whatever it takes to perpetrate the game's longevity to continue to make them money. If they thought it was best for the health of the game, they would merge the servers, and wouldn't give a rat's ass what any of us think or want. They don't care about us. They care about making money.

They have the figures, they have the information, they have the business analysts. They're in a better position than we are to know what is needed and what isn't with regard to this topic.

The fact that they are considering adding a new APAC server, which they tested not too long ago, inclines me to believe the populations of the game aren't at a state wherein server mergers are needed.

If those of us who are disagreeing with your position are wrong than there will be a server merger whether we like it or not.

You said server mergers are inevitable. If that's what you think, than you have nothing to worry about.

[Darkestmonty]

56 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Like it or not, individual concerns are what people make their decisions based on. People pay money to play this game. They're not paying so they can have fun, they're not paying so other people can have fun.

You also have to bare in mind, there are some people who have expressed repeatedly (and I am one of them), that they are of the notion that having only one server for the whole of the North American continent, which is several countries, The United States being the most populated among them, would be extremely bad for the health of the game.

I'm not saying that you don't believe what you are saying to be true, I'm sure you do, but some of us aren't so sure. You're arguments, I'm sure, make a great deal of sense to you, but so do the arguments of others to them.

I very much think that one server for NA would be disastrously bad for the health of the game. I think it would be the catalyst that starts the end of the game.

You're queue times being longer than you may like them to be, shouldn't supersede the overall health of the game.

See how that works?

We all have our own points of view. You may not agree with ours, but we're saying what we're saying for the same reason you're (presumably) saying what you're saying. It's what we think is best for the game at this juncture.

You did say something that I do agree with however. If the population gets to small they will have no choice but to merge servers. The fact that they haven't done so, said they're going to, or even hinted at the possibility, should say something.

They're gonna do whatever it takes to perpetrate the game's longevity to continue to make them money. If they thought it was best for the health of the game, they would merge the servers, and wouldn't give a rat's ass what any of us think or want. They don't care about us. They care about making money.

They have the figures, they have the information, they have the business analysts. They're in a better position than we are to know what is needed and what isn't with regard to this topic.

The fact that they are considering adding a new APAC server, which they tested not too long ago, inclines me to believe the populations of the game aren't at a state wherein server mergers are needed.

If those of us who are disagreeing with your position are wrong than there will be a server merger whether we like it or not.

You said server mergers are inevitable. If that's what you think, than you have nothing to worry about.

Your opinion is based on only playing one character on one server.

Mine opinion is based on playing every server for years and taking note of population drops year after year. Finishing Galactic Season on every server since it started and noting how much more difficult it is completing group oriented weeklies past that servers prime time hours due to lower populations.

Yes, what I post is my opinion. But my opinion is is based on years of experience playing on all 5 servers and watching what happens when the populations drop so low group content is no longer viable outside of peak hours.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Char_Ell]

2 hours ago, Toraak said:

From what I've seen of SS most of that population tends to be more solo player oriented anyway, so there is absolutely no need for that merger.

 

Broadsword will merge them if they feel it's necessary, but they have not even mentioned the need to do so at this time. That alone tell me SS has enough players on it.

So strange to make the argument that Satele Shan has enough players on it when this whole thread was started with the following statement.
 

On 7/12/2023 at 10:39 AM, StrikePrice said:

SS is completely dead. Admit it and move on. Give us transfers so we have something to pay for. 

So are you, Toraak, effectively saying you disagree with OP that Satele Shan is not dead because it has plenty of players that only care about playing solo content?  And if this is the case then free transfers are not needed?

 

I will simply repeat that if SWTOR devs offers free transfers off Satele Shan then I expect Satele Shan will be merged into a different server within a relatively short period of time thereafter.  This is because free transfers will cause the server's population to drop even more and SWTOR devs will effectively condemn Satele Shan to a role of low pop server as already perceived by a significant number of players.

With respect to how @TrixxieTriss predicts how SWTOR will function when SWTOR transitions servers to Amazon Web Services (as repeatedly mentioned by SWTOR devs) it all comes down to how SWTOR's server architecture is designed.  To my knowledge the only possible server changes SWTOR devs have mentioned in association with the transition to AWS are the addition of APAC server and/or a fresh start server.   That is it.  Any discussion about AWS enabling cross server group play is pure speculation at this point.  Maybe cross server will be possible with AWS but I am not counting on it.

[DWho]

I think the opinion of most players that think the server is dead is based entirely on one "sub-type" of content (which they consider to be the most important in the game - whether it is or not is purely opinion), random queuing (GF, warzones, and GSF) and it sounds like its not that many players affected (though they should have an opportunity to move if they choose - which they do now it's just expensive to move large legacies completely). There is nothing stopping anyone from creating a new character/legacy on a different server (that applies to both "group" and "solo" players) thus "moving" to a more preferred server. It's not dead for group content in general (lots of guilds running group content internally all the time, even PVP). If you want 100s of warzone/GSF matches a day, it's not the server for you but if you are looking for a few flashpoints, an operation, even a few PVP arenas, it works fine.

The players who don't think it is dead feel that for 90% of the content in the game, it is operating just fine with the current population levels. There really is no way to kill the server with transfers since we had operational servers prior to the last merge that had a fraction of the population SS still has and they operated fine for most content as well. So they are mainly against the concept of mergers (which unfortunately has become the focus of the thread over the last several pages in part to basically one person)

As far as transfers go, I think almost everyone would support low cost transfers between the servers (both directions) for a limited time. The argument seems to come down to whether the transfers should be allowed to deplete the server and any replenishment of its population be blocked (by being much more expensive). There is also the issue of F2P and Preferred players that might like to move to SS (there are F2P and preferred players, particularly preferred, that have lots of stuff spread across multiple characters, including their inactive ones) and don't have the CCs to do it. They don't have access to all the free CCs that subs have.

[Rujopetteri]

5 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

Simple logic.

List of complaints people use against server merges are not more important than a server merge when Satele Shan's population gets so low it can not regularly support group content.

1) I don't want to be forced on a populated server where I will have to wait 30 seconds for a mission item to respawn

• Good news, the more people there are on a planet the more instances open up. Being on Satele Shan with 59 people in the one and only instance is actually more crowded than being on Star Forge with 179 people spread across three different instances. And bonus, you get to swap instances if you run into people!

2) I don't want to lose my character name

• No one wants to lose their character name but if Satele Shan reaches a point where group content can't be supported, a merge is going to have to happen unless the devs come  up with cross server grouping, queuing, etc.

3) I don't want to lose access to the empty character slots I refuse to fill across all the servers

• Plan ahead. And this is only an issue if you play on multiple servers and the merged character count will surpass your current character limit on a server. Even then it will only stop you from making new characters. A merger will not lock access characters that already exist.

4) Star Forge has a delicate Erotic Role Play community that will be destroyed if servers are merged with a PvP server

• No it won't. People on Star Forge already make fun of Erotic Role Play when it starts leaking in gen chat. The players from Satele Shan aren't going to change anything

5) Satele Shan has more elite PvPers. I don't want to merge and be stuck fighting PvErs and RPers.

• I play PvP on all servers and no server has elite PvPers that are better than all other servers

6) We need a back up server to play in case my actual server goes down

• We should keep a server around just as a back up for the few hours server may go down every few months?

7) I won't have space in my legacy bank if two servers merge

• Use characters to help store excess items.

 

None of the above concerns are more important that keeping group content in an MMO viable. Satele Shan isn't quite at the point where grouping is impossible, but unless cross server tech is developed to allow group content to work independent of the server you are located, a merger is inevitable.

We maybe a year or two away, but free server transfers will only hasten the need for a merger or cross server tech.

I've been with the game since release. I've been through at least two server merges and lost all of the important character names I had. I stayed on Satele Shan and watched it go from a busy server with bustling economy and quick GSF and Warzone pops with continuous OPs to what we have now.

Eventually the population on Satele Shan will reach a point where it won't be viable to keep the server around unless cross server tech will allow grouping, queues, the GTN, and trading to work independently of the server you are on.

Ok about your item number 3:

Have they changed how this works at some point in time, because thats not even close to how it went for me.

I've played since the launch and at some point in time i had about 80ish characters spread over three or four servers. My account had 34 (iirc) character slots at the time.

Then i took a relatively long break for about 3-4 years and when i returned all of the servers that i had characters on were shut down. All my characters were now moved to DM. Every character was marked inactive and none of them could not be logged in until activated. My account still had only 34 character slots. So i was able to activate (and actually play) only 34 of the 80+ characters i had. And because i had more than 34 inactive characters i could not make new ones either.

So technically i didn't lose any characters, but i ended up deleting most of the lower level characters and had to buy a lot of character slots to the account to activate the rest of them.

----

And about the forced name changes: I was very fortunate that i didn't lose any of my main characters names and in fact i only lost a coulple of names from some unsignificant characters that i ended up deleting anyway. Maybe that's because i try to use my imagination when making up the names and i'm not trying to be LukeSkywalker or HanSolo etc.

BUT if i had lost any of my main characters names, i would have instantly logged out, uninstalled the game and never come back.

 

----

So in conclusion, i do support the OP's suggestion of giving free or cheap character transfers to people instead of forced merges. If after some time said tranfers have been available a server ends up being actually empty to the point where almost nobody logs in (backed by the actual numbers only available to the devs) then the merge might be in order but start with giving people the CHOICE before forcing anything.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Rujopetteri
typos...

[TrixxieTriss]

1 hour ago, Rujopetteri said:

i do support the OP's suggestion of giving free or cheap character transfers to people instead of forced merges. If after some time said tranfers have been available a server ends up being actually empty to the point where almost nobody logs in (backed by the actual numbers only available to the devs) then the merge might be in order but start with giving people the CHOICE before forcing anything

This is the way to do it. Let the players choose & decide where & how they want to play. 

[Stradlin]

4 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Like it or not, individual concerns are what people make their decisions based on. People pay money to play this game. They're not paying so they can have fun, they're not paying so other people can have fun.

You also have to bare in mind, there are some people who have expressed repeatedly (and I am one of them), that they are of the notion that having only one server for the whole of the North American continent, which is several countries, The United States being the most populated among them, would be extremely bad for the health of the game.

I'm not saying that you don't believe what you are saying to be true, I'm sure you do, but some of us aren't so sure. You're arguments, I'm sure, make a great deal of sense to you, but so do the arguments of others to them.

I very much think that one server for NA would be disastrously bad for the health of the game. I think it would be the catalyst that starts the end of the game.

You're queue times being longer than you may like them to be, shouldn't supersede the overall health of the game.

See how that works?

We all have our own points of view. You may not agree with ours, but we're saying what we're saying for the same reason you're (presumably) saying what you're saying. It's what we think is best for the game at this juncture.

You did say something that I do agree with however. If the population gets to small they will have no choice but to merge servers. The fact that they haven't done so, said they're going to, or even hinted at the possibility, should say something.

They're gonna do whatever it takes to perpetrate the game's longevity to continue to make them money. If they thought it was best for the health of the game, they would merge the servers, and wouldn't give a rat's ass what any of us think or want. They don't care about us. They care about making money.

They have the figures, they have the information, they have the business analysts. They're in a better position than we are to know what is needed and what isn't with regard to this topic.

The fact that they are considering adding a new APAC server, which they tested not too long ago, inclines me to believe the populations of the game aren't at a state wherein server mergers are needed.

If those of us who are disagreeing with your position are wrong than there will be a server merger whether we like it or not.

You said server mergers are inevitable. If that's what you think, than you have nothing to worry about.

Busy server means a solo player sometimes needs to wait 30 seconds between spawns.

Too quiet server means person wanting to do multiplayer content won't be able to.

If one removes mememe from picture and looks at this as if you were an admin, janitor or such..which issue seems more urgent to you?

 

Ofc, quiet server means much beyond that, and plays a huge role through the entire social side of the game.

[Darkestmonty]

41 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

Busy server means a solo player sometimes needs to wait 30 seconds between spawns.

Too quiet server means person wanting to do multiplayer content won't be able to.

If one removes mememe from picture and looks at this as if you were an admin, janitor or such..which issue seems more urgent to you?

 

Ofc, quiet server means much beyond that, and plays a huge role through the entire social side of the game.

and if Broadsword allows free server transfers off of Satele Shan that will only make the population issues worse. Unless Broadsword is going to enable cross server grouping, cross server queues for all group content, cross server trades, and cross server GTNs, the inevitable result of free transfers will be server merges.

Like you said, the mememe people concerned more about their names, having to wait 30 seconds, and losing empty character slots they aren't using would rather have people stuck on a dead server with no options instead of making concessions for the betterment of the majority. And no the majority do not want to be stuck on a dead server with very few options for group content. That is not my opinion, that is a fact with MMOs.

Note: people stuck on the server refers to people not able to use the free transfer because they missed the window, people who have friends and guilds that refuse to move, along with new and returning players who may not be aware free transfers is or was an option.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[DWho]

42 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

Too quiet server means person wanting to do multiplayer content won't be able to.

And with 2 servers you can have what makes both types of players happy. The busy server makes the "random grouping" players happy and the "slower" server makes everyone else happy.

[Darkestmonty]

18 minutes ago, DWho said:

And with 2 servers you can have what makes both types of players happy. The busy server makes the "random grouping" players happy and the "slower" server makes everyone else happy.

so in your scenario free transfers will have no cut off date? People won't get stuck on Satele Shan or any server when they come back to the game a year or a few months after free transfers start?

Or are you betting that all group content will be available cross server including the grouping for World Bosses/Galactic Season/Invasions/Events, queuing for PvP/GSF/PvE/Ops, trading, and the GTN?

Edited July 27, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[TrixxieTriss]

16 hours ago, Stradlin said:

This is  one of those things where you being for or against it truly doesn't matter in any way.  Sorry to say, but neither is " relevant" here. Broadsword has their own data and statistics about this stuff

I don’t disagree with that. Broadsword will do what ever they intend to do based on their business model. Nothing we say will change that.

But the issue at hand isnt that. It’s that the OP legitimately asked the devs if they could have free or discounted transfers because group content isn’t popping properly on SS due to population degradation. Which is fair because people pay subscriptions to play & group content is part of that. They should not have to pay extra money to transfer to a server that can support group content. 

Then someone hijacked this thread & started calling for mergers, which weren’t part of the OP, are off topic & premature. Because not everyone plays group content & mergers have a whole lot of issues that go with them. One big one is it makes more people quit the game every time.

But anyone who disagrees with mergers or supports free transfers is bullied or trolled by one said person so they can derail the thread and push their merger agenda. They aren’t trying to have a discussion. They have just hijacked the thread. 

Edited July 28, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[OlBuzzard]

1 minute ago, TrixxieTriss said:

I don’t disagree with that. Broadsword will do what ever they intend to do based on their business model. Nothing we say will change that.

But the issue at hand isnt that. It’s that the OP legitimately asked the devs if they could have free or discounted transfers because group content isn’t popping properly on SS due to population degradation. Which is fair when because people pay subscriptions to play & group content is part of that. They should not have to pay extra money to transfer to a server that can support group content. 

Then someone hijacked this thread & started calling for mergers, which weren’t part of the OP, are off topic & premature. Because not everyone plays group content & mergers have a whole lot off issues that go with them. One big one is it makes more people quit the game every time.

But anyone who disagrees with mergers or supports free transfers is bullied or trolled by one said person so they can derail the thread and push their merger agenda. They aren’t trying to have a discussion. They have just hijacked the thread. 

Nailed it... (if I could give you a + 10 on your reaction right now I would).  Additionally, the individual responsible has no real concern for the community at large.   If there is a genuine concern for the wellbeing of PvP .. then perhaps the real answer is to get PvP fixed so that more people will be more willing to participate (regardless of what server they are on).   If more PvP groups are needed IMO another option could be that they all simply relocated (AKA transferred) to the same server (Note:  Individual player choice not mandatory).  This, however, would also be counterproductive to those who simply prefer to stay where they are at.  It has been stated time and time again that most players really are not that fond of mergers.  I personally hated them (I've been through two so far).

I also find it curious that players that would have to deal with loss of character names are swept aside as a matter of simple collateral damage and little more.  The continued failed logic / concern for the community and narrow-minded focus leaves me to conclude that regardless of the facts, truth, or impact on others that is obviously being ignored ... then perhaps the next step for me to take is to ignore those responsible for the attempted hijacking of this thread.

Lastly: IF this is in fact about the dwindling numbers of the game (across the board) then no one will have to tell the team to merge servers.  That will happen on its own when the team decides it's the right time .. and NOT beforehand (as it should be).

[Rujopetteri]

56 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

Like you said, the mememe people concerned more about their names, having to wait 30 seconds, and losing empty character slots they aren't using would rather have people stuck on a dead server with no options instead of making concessions for the betterment of the majority.

I tried to ask about this in my previous message but did BW change how merges are done at some point?

Because the way it actually happened previously (at least in my case) means that your claim about only losing "empty character slots they are not using" is simply not true.

If your total number of characters after the merge exceed the character slot amount you have on your account, you actually have to either DELETE characters or BUY NEW SLOTS for your account.

For example: If after the merge you have, let's say 67 characters on the server, but your account only has 50 slots, you still have all 67 characters, but you can only activate 50 of them, and after activating they can't be deactivated, which means you now have 17 characters you can't use. And you can't make more characters either even if you only activate less than 50 of your old ones until your total amount of characters is under the amount of slots you have on your account.

So it's either delete 17 characters or buy 17 (or more) new character slots in the above mentioned example.

At least thats how it went in my case when i returned after a looong hiatus and all the servers i originally had characters in were nuked.

[Darkestmonty]

56 minutes ago, Rujopetteri said:

I tried to ask about this in my previous message but did BW change how merges are done at some point?

Because the way it actually happened previously (at least in my case) means that your claim about only losing "empty character slots they are not using" is simply not true.

If your total number of characters after the merge exceed the character slot amount you have on your account, you actually have to either DELETE characters or BUY NEW SLOTS for your account.

For example: If after the merge you have, let's say 67 characters on the server, but your account only has 50 slots, you still have all 67 characters, but you can only activate 50 of them, and after activating they can't be deactivated, which means you now have 17 characters you can't use. And you can't make more characters either even if you only activate less than 50 of your old ones until your total amount of characters is under the amount of slots you have on your account.

So it's either delete 17 characters or buy 17 (or more) new character slots in the above mentioned example.

At least thats how it went in my case when i returned after a looong hiatus and all the servers i originally had characters in were nuked.

sorry, when you merge servers and are pushed beyond your character limit you still retain access to all characters that exist. The issue is when you try to create new characters, you can't create a new character until the character count falls below the threshold of your character limit.

If I had 100 characters on one server and 100 on another server, I would end up with 200 playable characters after a server merge.

I don't know when that changed because before the last merge I never had more than 25 characters merged onto a single server.

The problem I had when I came back was having to rename almost every character. You can't log on with a character until you rename them and this part took me forever.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[TrixxieTriss]

9 minutes ago, OlBuzzard said:

If there is a genuine concern for the wellbeing of PvP .. then perhaps the real answer is to get PvP fixed so that more people will be more willing to participate (regardless of what server they are on).

Exactly this 👆

And PvP season 3 started on the 18th July & population numbers are still dropping instead of getting a bump from the season starting. Which is highly concerning, but not unexpected by some of us who predicted this exact scenario starting around season 3-4 if the dev team didn’t address the PvP issues players have been complaining about since season 1. 

https://steamcharts.com/app/1286830#1m

The game is right back to the same sort of population numbers it had in December last year before season 1 started. The difference since then is they have made PvP less fun & driven off the majority of ranked PvP players.

I think Han Solo said it best: “I got a bad feeling about this” 

But at least allowing players to have free transfers would give the devs sometime to start fixing the PvP issues during season 3.
 

 

[OlBuzzard]

51 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Exactly this 👆

And PvP season 3 started on the 18th July & population numbers are still dropping instead of getting a bump from the season starting. Which is highly concerning, but not unexpected by some of us who predicted this exact scenario starting around season 3-4 if the dev team didn’t address the PvP issues players have been complaining about since season 1. 

https://steamcharts.com/app/1286830#1m

The game is right back to the same sort of population numbers it had in December last year before season 1 started. The difference since then is they have made PvP less fun & driven off the majority of ranked PvP players.

I think Han Solo said it best: “I got a bad feeling about this” 

But at least allowing players to have free transfers would give the devs sometime to start fixing the PvP issues during season 3.
 

 

For whatever it's worth ... I genuinely feel for those who enjoy PvP ... It's been such a turbulent, trying experience for some time now.  I also agree that an intermediatory step to assist in the meantime (while things are being restored) might certainly encourage those who enjoy that aspect of SWTOR.

Anything is possible.  Even if it were somewhat limited at first.  Baby steps?  Probably.  BUT if those steps are taken with a more positive impact... that would really be nice for everyone. 

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

12 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

Your opinion is based on only playing one character on one server.

So your of the opinion that how many characters someone plays and how many servers is somehow relevant to whether or not a server needs to be merged?

Now, you definitely are in a better position that I am to speak on the state of things on SS. I've stated numerous times that I don't have a clue how things are on SS. But that doesn't automatically make everything you say about it necessarily accurate or true.

And again, I don't know how many times this needs to be said and how many times it's been ignored without any response, there are people who also play on SS and have been here a very long time and play on multiple servers and play more than 1 character and don't agree with your assessment. My opinion is not the only one that counts.

12 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

Mine opinion is based on playing every server for years and taking note of population drops year after year. Finishing Galactic Season on every server since it started and noting how much more difficult it is completing group oriented weeklies past that servers prime time hours due to lower populations.

We're not talking about every server. We're talking about one server. SS.

The populations have dropped on all the servers, everyone knows the game population has continually dropped over the years. I agree with that totally.

But smaller, or longer, doesn't necessarily mean 'dead'.

You're making an assumption that the only reason why group content seems to harder to get people for is automatically due to population decreases. Now, I'm sure to a certain extent that has some influence on it, but it might not be the only factor involved in that. We all know how toxic people can be in PVP and how elites some people can be in raiding. A lot of raiders don't want to take people under their wings and teach them, so there is also a dwindling in the numbers due to that. Plus, people hear all the stories about toxicity and elitism not only here on the forums but also directly in chat, especially fleet. That could definitely play a part in why group content populations seem smaller. Because newer people can be intimidated and think they're not good enough and are to afraid of how they might be treated, so they don't even bother to try.

I personally think that is definitely part of the problem with dwindling group content populations. And the +5 premades in PVP, that's also driven a lot of people to be far less interested in PVPing. Population certainly plays a part, but it's not the only part or cause.

If you want to PVP you better damn well have a thick skin, because you're gonna need it, no matter how good or bad you are. And Elitism in higher end raiding is also a thing to some degree.

People see "Know fights". "Have X achievements". "Have gear." Now all of these things are understandable and it's not unreasonable for people to want those things, but, it does make people who don't have all those things very reluctant to try. If they can't get people to accept them, give them a chance, help them a bit to learn, than when we lose raiders from the game, we can't replace them in proper accord to off set those loses.

The toxicity is real. Most people acknowledge it's presence in the game and the effects it can have on people.

Population certainly plays a part, but not the only part.

 

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

10 hours ago, Stradlin said:

Too quiet server means person wanting to do multiplayer content won't be able to.

Which server is so quiet that a person wanting to do multiplayer content is unable to exactly?

Which server is there no multiplayer content being done on?

[eabevella]

10 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

So your of the opinion that how many characters someone plays and how many servers is somehow relevant to whether or not a server needs to be merged?

Now, you definitely are in a better position that I am to speak on the state of things on SS. I've stated numerous times that I don't have a clue how things are on SS. But that doesn't automatically make everything you say about it necessarily accurate or true.

And again, I don't know how many times this needs to be said and how many times it's been ignored without any response, there are people who also play on SS and have been here a very long time and play on multiple servers and play more than 1 character and don't agree with your assessment. My opinion is not the only one that counts.

We're not talking about every server. We're talking about one server. SS.

The populations have dropped on all the servers, everyone knows the game population has continually dropped over the years. I agree with that totally.

But smaller, or longer, doesn't necessarily mean 'dead'.

You're making an assumption that the only reason why group content seems to harder to get people for is automatically due to population decreases. Now, I'm sure to a certain extent that has some influence on it, but it might not be the only factor involved in that. We all know how toxic people can be in PVP and how elites some people can be in raiding. A lot of raiders don't want to take people under their wings and teach them, so there is also a dwindling in the numbers due to that. Plus, people hear all the stories about toxicity and elitism not only here on the forums but also directly in chat, especially fleet. That could definitely play a part in why group content populations seem smaller. Because newer people can be intimidated and think they're not good enough and are to afraid of how they might be treated, so they don't even bother to try.

I personally think that is definitely part of the problem with dwindling group content populations. And the +5 premades in PVP, that's also driven a lot of people to be far less interested in PVPing. Population certainly plays a part, but it's not the only part or cause.

If you want to PVP you better damn well have a thick skin, because you're gonna need it, no matter how good or bad you are. And Elitism in higher end raiding is also a thing to some degree.

People see "Know fights". "Have X achievements". "Have gear." Now all of these things are understandable and it's not unreasonable for people to want those things, but, it does make people who don't have all those things very reluctant to try. If they can't get people to accept them, give them a chance, help them a bit to learn, than when we lose raiders from the game, we can't replace them in proper accord to off set those loses.

The toxicity is real. Most people acknowledge it's presence in the game and the effects it can have on people.

Population certainly plays a part, but not the only part.

 

Speaks of toxicity, this is also an issue regarding group contents.

If all a person wants is to grind tech frag, then sure, you'll get more random groups on SF due to the larger general population. SF is also where the mega guilds are, and they tend to push way more CQ points than SS guilds which is a good indication to compare scale and population between servers.

But if you are doing advanced group contents like getting into a serious PvP team or a HM/NiM raid team, people tend to be more careful about accepting new member because no one wants a d*ckhead to ruin the team dynamic. And PvP in nature has higher chance of turning sour because it's people vs people instead of people vs game and people, you really need a tight good team to avoid drama. Hence it may be tougher to find likely-minded people especially on a smaller server (SS compared to SF) because I feel like it's even more of a closed membership on SS, and if you queue PvP solo, it's definitely no fun at all in its current status.

Back to server transfer... the idea of a paid server transfer is kind of ridiculous in the first place but since you also transfer your chievos and deco unlock (reminder: decos cost giant $$$ and there are a lot of people who's into space interior design) on the character, I think BW made it so that they can profit from the players, and they (BW and I bet Broadsword) re not going to give up this way of profit.

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, eabevella said:

I think BW made it so that they can profit from the players, and they (BW and I bet Broadsword) re not going to give up this way of profit

Oh, they definitely added a cost to transfers to profit from players. I think we all know that.

The difference here is players who already pay a subscription & can’t play group content on SS or EU language servers, should not have to pay to move to a server where they can get group content. Even F2P/preferred players shouldn’t have to pay in this sort of situation. 

This is why I believe the free or discounted transfers should only be one way & off SS or the EU language servers. It shouldn’t be offered to move to degraded servers.

They could keep it like that till the migration to AWS. Then when/if an APAC server is added, they could offer the same transfers to it for APAC players who want to migrate off NA or EU servers.

Once the dust settles, if SS actually dies  completely & they decide they don’t want to implement cross server, then they can assess other options. 

Edited July 28, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Darkestmonty]

22 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Like it or not, individual concerns are what people make their decisions based on. People pay money to play this game. They're not paying so they can have fun, they're not paying so other people can have fun.

You also have to bare in mind, there are some people who have expressed repeatedly (and I am one of them), that they are of the notion that having only one server for the whole of the North American continent, which is several countries, The United States being the most populated among them, would be extremely bad for the health of the game.

I'm not saying that you don't believe what you are saying to be true, I'm sure you do, but some of us aren't so sure. You're arguments, I'm sure, make a great deal of sense to you, but so do the arguments of others to them.

I very much think that one server for NA would be disastrously bad for the health of the game. I think it would be the catalyst that starts the end of the game.

You're queue times being longer than you may like them to be, shouldn't supersede the overall health of the game.

See how that works?

We all have our own points of view. You may not agree with ours, but we're saying what we're saying for the same reason you're (presumably) saying what you're saying. It's what we think is best for the game at this juncture.

You did say something that I do agree with however. If the population gets to small they will have no choice but to merge servers. The fact that they haven't done so, said they're going to, or even hinted at the possibility, should say something.

They're gonna do whatever it takes to perpetrate the game's longevity to continue to make them money. If they thought it was best for the health of the game, they would merge the servers, and wouldn't give a rat's ass what any of us think or want. They don't care about us. They care about making money.

They have the figures, they have the information, they have the business analysts. They're in a better position than we are to know what is needed and what isn't with regard to this topic.

The fact that they are considering adding a new APAC server, which they tested not too long ago, inclines me to believe the populations of the game aren't at a state wherein server mergers are needed.

If those of us who are disagreeing with your position are wrong than there will be a server merger whether we like it or not.

You said server mergers are inevitable. If that's what you think, than you have nothing to worry about.

keeping group content viable in an MMO for all players is more important than a solo only player not wanting to share mission items which respawn every 30 seconds, wanting to save unused character slots across multiple servers "just in case", taking the chance at a character rename, or any other personal reason.

This isn't a single player RPG, this is an MMO and if a servers group content is no longer viable, that server should be merged.

SS probably doesn't need a merge yet, group content is still viable during prime time and in the summer and holidays season, but if free character transfers were available, that would immediately hasten the need for a merger.

At this point we can not rely on AWS to automatically give us cross server capabilities for grouping, queues, trading, and GTN access. Until the devs announce that AWS is going to have cross server capabilities, server merges are the only option if group content can no longer be supported.

No single players wants, because SWTOR is a business, trumps all players ability to access group content in an MMO.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Stradlin]

11 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Which server is so quiet that a person wanting to do multiplayer content is unable to exactly?

Which server is there no multiplayer content being done on?

I know OP Speaks of SS. SS is quiet indeed always when I play there...but I play so far removed from USA west coast peak that I'd expect nothing more really. Sometimes it feels bit busier than I would have guessed, hour considered. Maybe thanks to Seasons?

But which server is truly so quiet that things are kinda dysfunctional? Leviathan, the French server. During last season, there were times when GSF is among weekly objectives, I log in to Levi  during peak hours of central EU, queue for GSF and see no game up in 60 mins.

Ofc, these things are never binary in practice. This whole dead vs alive thing....it takes a long time til something is completely "dead". It has turned to bad experiencer for all long before that though. . Usually, almost no activity is "completely dead", things fall apart from the outskirts towards center.  You "lose" few hours of active FP/OPS/PVP queue from both ends of the line. Six months go by and you notice you've lost few more hours. Maybe things aren't completely dead, but activity outside peak hours becomes more and more unusual. Eventually only weekend peak hours are realibly active.When any activity on any server reaches this point, it is fair to call it dead. I know for a fact GSF of SS was there like few years back, during the god awful broken conquest BW had going for a while, which pushed people from multiplayer to single player.

Ofc, silence of a server  has an effect on every imagineable social aspect the game has. Pool of guilds to join, amount of people to talk to, potential for making friends..everything obvious and less obvious suffers.

 

 

 

  

Edited July 28, 2023 by Stradlin

[Char_Ell]

18 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

But the issue at hand isnt that. It’s that the OP legitimately asked the devs if they could have free or discounted transfers because group content isn’t popping properly on SS due to population degradation. Which is fair because people pay subscriptions to play & group content is part of that. They should not have to pay extra money to transfer to a server that can support group content. 

Then someone hijacked this thread & started calling for mergers, which weren’t part of the OP, are off topic & premature. Because not everyone plays group content & mergers have a whole lot of issues that go with them. One big one is it makes more people quit the game every time.

But anyone who disagrees with mergers or supports free transfers is bullied or trolled by one said person so they can derail the thread and push their merger agenda. They aren’t trying to have a discussion. They have just hijacked the thread. 

I say you and and the rest of the people that liked your post can go pound sand.  Yes, the OP wants free transfers because OP feels Satele Shan is "dead" with respect to when and how OP plays SWTOR.  Just because someone else comes in and thinks that the devs should not bother with free transfers and instead just merge Satele Shan into Star Forge does not mean the person is bullying or trolling people.  Your attempts to play the role of self-appointed moderator are misguided at best.  If you feel there is someone that is breaking the forum rules then report such posts and let the real moderators decide if that is the case and how to handle.  As far as I'm concerned you have played the role of bully more than anybody else in this thread, with your accusations of "chatbot" without evidence, essentially attempting character assassination in an effort to get the person you disagree with to either stop posting or change their opinion to one more in line with yours.

I've made it clear that my view is if the devs grant OP's desire for free transfers they will effectively condemn Satele Shan to being a low population server and I think that means the devs would later merge Satele Shan into a different server (presumably Star Forge).  I feel this way because that is what happened in the past when the devs offered free server transfers.  To be very clear I specifically mean free character transfers from Satele Shan to Star Forge.  It seems evident that a significant number of thread participants agree with OP and think free character transfers is the way to go and that a merger is not needed.  As someone who mainly plays on Satele Shan but also has characters I play on Star Forge I feel like those with the aforementioned view pretty much have their own interests at heart.  I get that.  No condemnation from me.  I was just unfortunate enough to pick The Harbinger to play on at launch (yes, my launch guild picked that server) which went on to become one of the most populated servers in the game, only to later be merged into Satele Shan and to now become the lower pop server for North America.  No character transfers for any of my main characters, all forced server changes due to mergers.  Basically my choice of server from 12 years ago didn't end up being the "correct" one...  (anybody detect sarcasm in the last sentence?)

I appreciate those who have acknowledged that the decision on what to do with SWTOR's servers rests with the dev team (and possibly EA as well), not with players.  As I've recently stated elsewhere on these forums, I think the devs have some difficult decisions to make with respect to SWTOR's server configuration and the planned transition to AWS.  In my opinion the devs need to use the data exclusively available to them to make a decision that they think will have the least negative impact on the game's overall population and health.  I feel that decision is unlikely to be allowing free character transfers from Satele Shan and just leaving Satele Shan as a low population server.  If the transition to AWS enables features that SWTOR has not had before and will alleviate concerns about imbalanced group play between Satele Shan and Star Forge (a.k.a. cross server) that sounds like it would be great.  I have no idea if AWS will enable such features though so I've only considered options that I know are available as possible options.

[Stradlin]

21 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

I don’t disagree with that. Broadsword will do what ever they intend to do based on their business model. Nothing we say will change that.

But the issue at hand isnt that. It’s that the OP legitimately asked the devs if they could have free or discounted transfers because group content isn’t popping properly on SS due to population degradation. Which is fair because people pay subscriptions to play & group content is part of that. They should not have to pay extra money to transfer to a server that can support group content. 

Then someone hijacked this thread & started calling for mergers, which weren’t part of the OP, are off topic & premature. Because not everyone plays group content & mergers have a whole lot of issues that go with them. One big one is it makes more people quit the game every time.

But anyone who disagrees with mergers or supports free transfers is bullied or trolled by one said person so they can derail the thread and push their merger agenda. They aren’t trying to have a discussion. They have just hijacked the thread. 

Eh, I didn't realize it were such a taboo topic. Clearly people have plenty of thoughts re:merges so off topic or not, seems there is some beef to be had here:p

 

I agree that in general, some period of time where they offer free xfers, or heavily discounted xfers would be the best option. Then again..Be away from SWTOR at the wrong moment, miss out on that discount  and you're sith out of luck. Perhaps they could hand out like half a dozen free  char transfers/account or something. In a fashion where those would pop on anyone's account who ever subscribes to game. 

I have a feeling that time when server merges would free up any resources(as in admisntrative workhours or hardware)  is long gone, at least when it comes to SF and SS. They're under the same roof, prolly more or less running on same PC even, operated by all the same staff as it is. Merging them makes nothing much easier for Broadsword..I guess. Having German and French servers  on the other hand is wasteful and it is pretty incredible we still have those two and no server somewhere around Australia/New Zeland/SK for example. Though hard to imagine if that would end up a ghost town. Anyway, those two extra euro servers being merged to Malgus would be a smart move imo.

 

Beyond that, errybody living on same server has its cool aspecs. It'd be a world that never sleeps, "peak hour" being a concept that pretty much lasts like 16 hours of 24, every queue  pool being  alive and well, huge RP communities connecting..it could be swell.

 

I get many of the reasons why people are opposed to it. Some of the opposition makes perfect sense to me..while some has pretty annoying NIMBY vibe to it though.

"Yeah well too bad if folks enjoying multiplayer stuff aren't able to do what they'd like.At all. However, It'd mean I sometimes have to wait for a mob to spawn for 30 seconds, therefore I fight against it!!" There is something..terrible in this, lol. Things that make me think of few lines by John Connor  in Terminator 2. "We're not gonna make it, are we? People, I mean."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Stradlin

[Darkestmonty]

4 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

Eh, I didn't realize it were such a taboo topic. Clearly people have plenty of thoughts re:merges so off topic or not, seems there is some beef to be had here:p

 

In general, some period of time where they offer free xfers, or heavily discounted xfers would be the best option imo. Then again..Be away from SWTOR at the wrong moment, miss out on that discount  and you're sith out of luck. Perhaps they could hand out like half a dozen free  char transfers/account or something. In a fashion where those would pop on anyone's account who ever subscribes to game. 

I have a feeling that time when server merges would free up any resources is long gone, at least when it comes to SF and SS. They're under the same roof, prolly more or less running on same PC even, operated by all the same staff as it is. Merging them makes nothing much easier for Broadsword..I guess. Having German and French servers  on the other hand is wasteful and it is pretty incredible we still have those two and no server somewhere around Australia/New Zeland/SK for example. Though hard to imagine if that would end up a ghost town.  Those two being merged to Malgus would be a smart move imo.

 

Beyond that, errybody living on same server has its cool aspecs. It'd be a world that never sleeps, "peak hour" being a concept that pretty much lasts like 16 hours of 24, every queue  pool being  alive and well, huge RP communities connecting..it could be swell.

 

I get many of the reasons why people are opposed to it. Some of the opposition makes perfect sense to me..while some has pretty annoying NIMBY vibe to it though.

"Yeah well too bad if folks enjoying multiplayer stuff aren't able to do what they'd like at all. At all. However, It'd mean I sometimes have to wait for a mob to spawn for 30 seconds, therefore I fight against it!!" There is something..terrible in this, lol.

I have heard this rumor for years and because you are from the EU you may know if it is true. That the French server and German server exist in their perspective countries and haven't been merged due to a law requiring MMOs who dedicate servers to a country to be in that country?

Seems odd to keep Leviathan separated with their population.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Darkestmonty