Wasted MM Flashpoints due to player inexperience and low gear.

[Astarris]

As an experienced player who has been with the game since the beginning it is very frustrating to see all the new players queuing for MM flashpoints under geared and without any knowledge of mechanics. Now in theory a tank can have lower gear than 336 and do well in MM flashpoints with a reliable healer but if they don't know the mechanics then you get into all sorts of trouble. I feel that MM flashpoints are for experienced players who have good gear, especially since some of the bosses are a straight DPS check. VET mode is for those learning and gearing. 

My suggestion for the dev's would be to assist players by giving gear stats in group finder queue alongside their role so we can have the choice to join or not given that information. I ask this because to date I am wasting many flashpoints each day, many which incur a stand down time, due to not being able to get through the flashpoint. 

Any other suggestions?

[LD_Little_Dragon]

Gear won't help much, I've seen dps with 336 gear who can't hit 10k.  It's just the hazards of pugging. 

It's also a consequence of the rewards for MM fp being pretty much useless for geared players.  There's no reason to do them except for fun and achievements.  So you get experienced players avoiding them and players jumping from the ludicriously faceroll easy vets into master mode without having a clue about how to play their class or role.

I pretty much gave up trying to pug as heals or tank for MM fp this expansion, you get fast pops, yeah, but without at least one decent dps the flashpoints are not much fun.

[DeannaVoyager]

Veteran mode flashpoints should be more difficult, so that people would maybe start to understand that you can't just run through everything. A few wipes in vets every now and then would do good for some people. Everything being too easy makes them think they are good, they queue for MM FPS and if the group wipes there, they blame everyone else. 

 

Not so long ago I played Ruins of Nul MM with pugs. The other dps was getting carried through it, and at the end he said "I remembered this was much harder than this". It was still hard for the rest of us who tried to compensate the lack of his dps and incredible accuracy of standing in stupid, but he never knew that. He thought he did great and that it was easy. That's the reality with the majority of the playerbase now.

 

An in-game dps meter would give new players some clue on how they are doing compared to the other people in the group.  As long as they don't know how bad they are, they have no reason to learn and get better. Casuals don't use starparse. They've probably never even heard of it. Ever since SP changed in 7.0 so that we can see what everyone else is doing in the group, there is no reason to "protect" players from the truth anyhow. A lot of people play the game because it's Star Wars, they play it for the story and just chill. They may never become interested in getting better, but then they shouldn't enter MM flashpoints either. As long as they think they are doing great, they will continue to queue up, unfortunately. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by DeannaVoyager

[SteelieCZ]

Incidentally I made a thread in this very forum about what would be adequate preparation for MM flashpoints. Have I just been lucky with pugs so far that I haven't struggled with them much beyond the occasional wipe on an avoidable mechanic (knockback bosses yoo-hoo)? The groups were always a mix of people geared as low as 324s all the way to top-notch raiding gear. Definitely didn't let myself get carried as a DPS, at least according to StarParse. Heck even 3-manned Sav'Rak when our other DPS got knocked off the stage after our first wipe. I tried it from a different point of view and rolled a brand new healer sage as well. While healing MM Blood Hunt may have been the most challenging thing I've done in the game by far, haven't had a group fail a MM flashpoint yet.

[DeannaVoyager]

If the group has one good dps, everything usually dies. It'll take a bit longer, but everything dies. On some flashpoints you also need a good tank or a good healer so basically 50% of the group, and there will be a lot less struggling. Someone might die, but usually it's their own fault. If you are the only one in the group who knows how to play, then you are in trouble. It's possible to complete some easier flashpoints with a sack of potatoes and their followers but not all of them. So yes, I'd say you've been lucky. You've had at least two people in the group every time who do their job and don't die to stupid, and that's enough. 

 

I've been queing for MM FPs lately to practise on my healing. Some people are doing really good DTPS numbers, so I get to hit more than one button to keep them alive. You won't get that luxury with players who know what they are doing. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by DeannaVoyager

[LD_Little_Dragon]

3 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

If the group has one good dps, everything usually dies. It'll take a bit longer, but everything dies.

I agree with this, one good dps is about all you need, good in putting out damage, and also doing mechs and avoiding taking damage.

The MM fp have actually been nerfed a lot compared to 5.0 and 6.0, so if  you get 2 or more players (plus you) in a group that know what they're doing it feels really easy.
 

The tuning is also really variable.  Some fp I can put out like 10k hps even with a mediocre group and it's fine (like Lost Island, that was overnerfed), and others I can do 22k plus hps and still might lose a dps to mechs (like Tython or Nul).

Pugging really is hit or miss, I just find that if I pug as dps it's much more likely to get a clear then if I go heals.   I main lethality dps so am very versatile and can cover for either a bad dps, or a mediocre tank or heals.

[FlameYOL]

I think having low gear is fine, provided its not below 318 its doable to do most MM FPs. The real issue is when someone who isn't familiar with their rotation joins in a MM FP expecting it to be a faceroll but get hit with one of the few that are actually hard and require you to know your rotation and be aware of mechanics, it also doesn't help some players that are new to the FP just don't say they're new so they end up causing a wipe because they didn't followed mechanics properly only then to say something about it so that veterans can explain it. I'm more than glad to take on newbies on the MM FPs provided they're properly geared (Irating 318 which is the minimum to do endgame content), have a basic notion of their rotation and general combat mechanics of the game and are willing to listen to my explanations on the mechanics.

[Wraithwarr]

On 7/7/2023 at 4:21 PM, Astarris said:

Any other suggestions?

Don't queue with randoms.  I wish it wasn't the case, but its the state of things.  I run them all the time with my guildies, but I just won't do randoms anymore due to the average player refusing to learn their role or rotation.  Until that changes, I'll stick to queuing with a four stack of friends. 

[MotherCrusher]

7 hours ago, Wraithwarr said:

Don't queue with randoms.  I wish it wasn't the case, but its the state of things.  I run them all the time with my guildies, but I just won't do randoms anymore due to the average player refusing to learn their role or rotation.  Until that changes, I'll stick to queuing with a four stack of friends. 

Sadly this won't change. people don't want to put in any actual effort.

[Wraithwarr]

18 hours ago, MotherCrusher said:

Sadly this won't change. people don't want to put in any actual effort.

 It's a total bummer, the game did not used to be this way.  Too much effort was focused on making things "clearable" and I feel like we lost something along the way because of it. 

[LD_Little_Dragon]

2 hours ago, Wraithwarr said:

 It's a total bummer, the game did not used to be this way.  Too much effort was focused on making things "clearable" and I feel like we lost something along the way because of it. 

7.0 made it worse by not only nerfing vet fp into the ground (and MM were nerfed as well) but by removing any real rewards from MM fp.  There is simply no reason to pug MM instead of Vet.  The rewards are total garbage for MM.

[Lord_Malganus]

On 9/21/2023 at 2:12 AM, MotherCrusher said:

Sadly this won't change. people don't want to put in any actual effort.

That's why I only play MM FP's solo.