Vigilance/Vengeance DOT Damage Numbers

[Flexgoliath]

Finally got around to playing my guardian as dps at end game and after working through the rotation and reviewing guides online to see how well im doing.

I prefer to play dot specs and thus playing vengeance.

I noticed something odd when I started breaking down my parses...  This "dot" spec even when using the dot refresh tactical does extremely little actual bleed/burn damage.  In the best cases only 25-28% of Vigi/Veng damage is actually dot/burn/bleed damage.  I guess this post could be seen as a kind of nitpick but I kind of got really disappointed by how much of our damage is from direct abilities.  When you compare dot numbers to other specs like sage/madness/plasma/pyro these classes do 45-70% percent of their damage through dots like a dot class should in my opinion.

I dont think it would be too much work but it would be nice to see a lot of the direct damage from skills get moved to burns/bleed and plasmabrand/shatter dots, taking their contributions from 25% to 40-50% like you would expect a dot focused class to do.

The way these specs are currently, there are even some direct damage specs that do almost as much dot damage LOL.  It is safer to call Vigi/Veng a hybrid if not just another direct damage class.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Flexgoliath

[AdjeYo]

It's more of a hybrid spec than a purely dot focused spec for sure. But that's fine, it's how the class has always operated and has been designed. All of your dots have a direct damage component as well. (that said your most damaging ability of all will still be the dot from shatter, so it's definitely not a direct damage spec). Maybe Jugg dps is just not for you, there's plenty of more dot focused specs to enjoy. 

And what direct damage classes could you find that deal almost as much dot damage? The bursts specs that I think of when thinking dots (Concealment, Lightning, AP) are hovering around 10-15%, about half of what Vengeance does, and none of them have a dot as their most damaging ability. 

[Lord_Malganus]

On 5/12/2023 at 5:21 AM, AdjeYo said:

And what direct damage classes could you find that deal almost as much dot damage? The bursts specs that I think of when thinking dots (Concealment, Lightning, AP) are hovering around 10-15%, about half of what Vengeance does, and none of them have a dot as their most damaging ability. 

It's funny reading other class mains always claiming Vengeance needs a huge AOE Nerf, not realizing good Vengeance Players are simply dotting them to death.

[AdjeYo]

I do think Vengeance could use a good AoE nerf, they are quite a bit out of line comapred to other specs.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

17 hours ago, Lord_Malganus said:

It's funny reading other class mains always claiming Vengeance needs a huge AOE Nerf, not realizing good Vengeance Players are simply dotting them to death.

When your aoe spreads your dots, then your dots ARE part of your aoe.

[Lord_Malganus]

Exactly.

[AdjeYo]

51 minutes ago, LD_Little_Dragon said:

When your aoe spreads your dots, then your dots ARE part of your aoe.

Without cut to pieces, sure. But with cut to pieces the dots are mainly there to refresh your Smash. Smashing every turn does a lot more than your dot ticks. 

[Lord_Malganus]

52 minutes ago, AdjeYo said:

Without cut to pieces, sure. But with cut to pieces the dots are mainly there to refresh your Smash. Smashing every turn does a lot more than your dot ticks. 

Thanks for posting that.

[LEEscoundral]

I would say vengeance aoe with hemo single target tactical isnt so OP.The OP thing is cut to pieces. but its not so dangerous in pvp and only really shines in trash mobs so who cares about that..

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by LEEscoundral

[Lord_Malganus]

Just my opinion based on the current PTS class changes, I'm switching to Rage in 7.4

Edited October 27, 2023 by Lord_Malganus

[AdjeYo]

Oh are there class changes on the pts? I can't seem to find them listen anywhere.

Not so great stuff from Vengeance as I understand from what you said? 

[Nee-Elder]

13 hours ago, AdjeYo said:

Oh are there class changes on the pts? I can't seem to find them listed anywhere.

Yeah for some strange reason, Broadsword hasn't posted any PTS sticky threads about the changes yet.

***UPDATE,  they just posted finally about it: https://forums.swtor.com/topic/931762-74-content-on-the-public-test-server-is-now-live/?do=findComment&comment=9783609

Also, a nice player  posted this other thread: https://forums.swtor.com/topic/931769-class-changes/

Edited October 27, 2023 by Nee-Elder

[AdjeYo]

Honestly looking at the recent patch notes, I'm not that distrusted. I don't like the new rotation that the Shatter cd reduction forced on us. I much prefer the old rotation. 

[LEEscoundral]

On 10/28/2023 at 11:07 AM, AdjeYo said:

Honestly looking at the recent patch notes, I'm not that distrusted. I don't like the new rotation that the Shatter cd reduction forced on us. I much prefer the old rotation. 

 Looks like its gona be ruined it to me.. What is the old rotation?

Edited October 30, 2023 by LEEscoundral

[AdjeYo]

3 hours ago, LEEscoundral said:

 Looks like its gona be ruined it to me.. What is the old rotation?

It's a repeating block of 6 GCD's

Impale

Filler*

Force Scream

Filler*

Vengeful Slam 

Filler*

 

Shatter moves across the Filler slot. Starting in the first slot and then showing up in the next Filler slot in the next block, until it skips a block and starts in the first slot again. Ravage between every two Shatters, if possible after Scream so you refresh all dots. The other fillers are mainly to maintain Rage, but with Enrage off cd you can greed a bit with Vicious slash or unprocced Hews. 

 

Open with Charge Enrage or Charge Sunder to get the early armour debuff. 

 

This is more or less what the Vengeance rotation has been since 3.0 up until 7.0 introduced lower CD on Shatter. I find it much nicer because all important damaging abilities (Shatter, Impale, Scream and Slam) are used on cooldown. Whereas currently for the optimal rotation you delay 3 of those by a GCD. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by AdjeYo

[LEEscoundral]

25 minutes ago, AdjeYo said:

It's a repeating block of 6 GCD's

Impale

Filler*

Force Scream

Filler*

Vengeful Slam 

Filler*

 

Shatter moves across the Filler slot. Starting in the first slot and then showing up in the next Filler slot in the next block, until it skips a block and starts in the first slot again. Ravage between every two Shatters, if possible after Scream so you refresh all dots. The other fillers are mainly to maintain Rage, but with Enrage off cd you can greed a bit with Vicious slash or unprocced Hews. 

 

Open with Charge Enrage or Charge Sunder to get the early armour debuff. 

 

This is more or less what the Vengeance rotation has been since 3.0 up until 7.0 introduced lower CD on Shatter. I find it much nicer because all important damaging abilities (Shatter, Impale, Scream and Slam) are used on cooldown. Whereas currently for the optimal rotation you delay 3 of those by a GCD. 

ok cool thanks.. so you mean theres 6 blocks?

[AdjeYo]

1 hour ago, LEEscoundral said:

ok cool thanks.. so you mean theres 6 blocks?

4 blocks of 6 GCD's basically. But if you have the basic 6 GCD system down, the whole rotation will flow smoothly.