How PVP in its current state is driving away new potential players

[AwesomeTacoCat]

15 minutes ago, septru said:

This actually seems so much better than SF. On SF it's usually just 8 bots v 8 bots. Maybe I should transfer SS. 

I mean presumably you are not a bot (I assume most bots aren’t really capable of understanding pvp enough to post about it on forums), so it’s not 8 bots…

[Samcuu]

I played on SS a few months ago for the Galactic Seasons objective and it was worse than anything I've ever experienced on SF. I felt so bad for the poor bots over there after they were killed so many times, I literally just stood there and auto attacked them.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Samcuu

[TrixxieTriss]

10 hours ago, septru said:

I think any matchmaking issues (which like @Headstylez mentioned are fairly irregular) are overshadowed by more prevalent issues like the lack of any meaningful incentives for competition or actual skill. 

 

if I'm not having any fun in PvP, 95% of the time it's because no one on the other team has the slightest clue how to fight back and I feel like I'm PvE parsing. Maybe 5% of games are ruined as a result of poor matchmaking or I'm against a premade. 

I personally don’t mean premades or even team compositions, Im talking straight up skill matchmaking using the hidden ELO. 

IMO, the hidden ELO BioWare says it employs in WZ & now Arena, has always been extremely suspect. I’ve repeated for years that I don’t think it works as they suggest it does & it needs some players eyes on it to test its capability. 

It’s why I’ve been asking for them to at least allow players to see their own hidden ELO. BioWare don’t need to make it public like the old ranked leaderboards for us to test it.

That way we can try & see if it’s actually working as described or if BioWare are lying about even having a working ELO just to shut players up, 

Surely, having a matchmaking system that works better to take into account player skills would make matches more enjoyable for you & every other player. 

[septru]

17 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

I personally don’t mean premades or even team compositions, Im talking straight up skill matchmaking using the hidden ELO...

 

Surely, having a matchmaking system that works better to take into account player skills would make matches more enjoyable for you & every other player. 

Oh, that's what you mean by matchmaking... TBH I don't expect proper matchmaking. There are too many considerations. For example someone can have a 80% winrate with their premade, and a 10% winrate queing solo. By matchmaking I was referring to premades and comp composition, which the matchmaking algorithm does a pretty good job at. 

 

But more to your point about skill-based matchmaking, the matchmaking system can't really do anything with when there is such a large skill gap. I can sit in que for 10, 20, even 30 minutes. It doesn't matter. I will never get a properly matched game. There are simply no similarly skilled players left in this game. They all quit. And honestly, who can blame them? There are no rewards for skilled in PvP. And the bigger problem is that new PvPers will NEVER get more skilled. And likewise, who can blame them? There are no rewards for improving at PvP. 

 

TLDR: the lack of meaningful incentives for actual skill is the biggest problem driving away new PvPers by exacerbating the skill gap between new and older PvPers. 

 

[TrixxieTriss]

7 minutes ago, septru said:

TLDR: the lack of meaningful incentives for actual skill is the biggest problem driving away new PvPers by exacerbating the skill gap between new and older PvPers. 

On this we are in 100% agreement. 

[Headstylez]

1 hour ago, septru said:

TLDR: the lack of meaningful incentives for actual skill is the biggest problem driving away new PvPers by exacerbating the skill gap between new and older PvPers. 

 

It really blows my mind that they completely did away with any and all skill-based PvP goals for a game that requires some significant time and skill to PvP effectively.  At some point, newer people who play games for PvP will play all the maps a bunch of times, grind through a season or two, and then realize there is no point to continue playing and getting better.

Then you got hugely popular f2p games like World of Tanks, which is much simpler at its core. It still has a ranked mode.  Outside of ranked, it has a Marks of Excellence system as well as skill-based medals and achievements that can be attained in unranked play, yet you can’t just grind to achieve them.

There is absolutely nothing left to attain in SWTOR PVP that is a matter of skill.  The only thing left is the fun of the game itself.  But there are a lot of other fun games out there that also reward the time and effort it takes to become skilled, which is always more meaningful and satisfying than time and effort spent on pure grind.

[Headstylez]

I mean someone can learn the basics of Rocket League in an hour and start having fun going just trying to climb through the lower brackets.  Almost every cookie-cutter cash-grab mobile multiplayer game I play while taking a poop has some sort of skill-based tier mode I can explore if I want.  What’s the point of learning SWTOR complex systems now if the only reward is just a slightly shorter grind?

[Bigfallenstar]

11 hours ago, Headstylez said:

I mean someone can learn the basics of Rocket League in an hour and start having fun going just trying to climb through the lower brackets.  Almost every cookie-cutter cash-grab mobile multiplayer game I play while taking a poop has some sort of skill-based tier mode I can explore if I want.  What’s the point of learning SWTOR complex systems now if the only reward is just a slightly shorter grind?

Sounds like you just want to be rewarded for doing just anything in a warzone. Want a medal for leaving the spawn area?

[krackcommando]

24 minutes ago, Bigfallenstar said:

Sounds like you just want to be rewarded for doing just anything in a warzone. Want a medal for leaving the spawn area?

not sure how that's what you got from his posts. 😄

he's asking for rated or for rewards that reflect skill as opposed to the current stuff which is pure grind (I mean...assuming you can get 8 medals a few times per week...which almost anyone can simply be Q'ing enough to camp a node on a winning team).

[Prapcaster]

12 hours ago, Headstylez said:

I mean someone can learn the basics of Rocket League in an hour and start having fun going just trying to climb through the lower brackets.  Almost every cookie-cutter cash-grab mobile multiplayer game I play while taking a poop has some sort of skill-based tier mode I can explore if I want.  What’s the point of learning SWTOR complex systems now if the only reward is just a slightly shorter grind?

My friends who tried to get me into rocket league would disagree with you on that

[Headstylez]

3 hours ago, Bigfallenstar said:

Sounds like you just want to be rewarded for doing just anything in a warzone. Want a medal for leaving the spawn area?

No the exact opposite.

My point is that there are a ton of other games with simpler core mechanics and much lower barriers to entry that still have skill-based rewards and leaderboards that encourage people to keep playing and get better.  Rocket League is a super high skill game at the highest level.  But even at the lowest level you can jump in and compete and be rewarded in ways that matter…and you don’t need to do a bunch of gearing, leveling, and mapping of a ton of abilities to do it.  And when you do work hard and get really good at it, the rewards reflect it.

SWTOR PVP on the other hand requires a ton of investment into leveling, gearing, abilities, and learning now for what?  To get the same stuff as someone who afks their way through a season?  There’s just no point to playing at a high level in this game anymore.  For lot of people, getting better at a game and getting better rewards is a big part of the fun.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Headstylez

[steveerkcanjerk]

13 hours ago, Headstylez said:

It really blows my mind that they completely did away with any and all skill-based PvP goals for a game that requires some significant time and skill to PvP effectively.  At some point, newer people who play games for PvP will play all the maps a bunch of times, grind through a season or two, and then realize there is no point to continue playing and getting better.

Then you got hugely popular f2p games like World of Tanks, which is much simpler at its core. It still has a ranked mode.  Outside of ranked, it has a Marks of Excellence system as well as skill-based medals and achievements that can be attained in unranked play, yet you can’t just grind to achieve them.

There is absolutely nothing left to attain in SWTOR PVP that is a matter of skill.  The only thing left is the fun of the game itself.  But there are a lot of other fun games out there that also reward the time and effort it takes to become skilled, which is always more meaningful and satisfying than time and effort spent on pure grind.

In fairness even when there was a ranked mode 99% of the player Bases attitude towards pvp wasn't any different. There was a point where winning warzones was how you progressed through the dailies and weeklies but there was huge outcry about that. So every time there is an incentive to win backlash often gets it changed. But comparing games like Rocket League and World of Tanks is not really a equal comparison because those games are sold on the idea of pvp. SWTOR on the other hand has a much larger PVE component in comparison. But rated was not in a healthy place for this game and didn't change how most players interacted with PvP. Those skill players the quit weren't even enough to keep a solo queue consistently popping through out a season so to say if they all were around matchmaking would be better or fixed is just not true. I think the reality is that SWTOR atm is just not that kind of game and if we are being really honest about it, it hasn't been in sometime. 

In terms of rated as well I think as a ranked community we didnt also do a great job growing our community. The vote to kicks, talking really insane amount of trash, telling people to never queue up. All that really didnt help. Not to mention the constant win trading and cheating that yes even very good players were taking part in. We often did not make guilds were people could join and get better it was either get gud or bugger off. I think its really easy to say Bioware should have done more but when you only have 30 people in queue and a good chunk of them are falling into bad behavior categories like what do you do? And I know alot of people especially ranked players may not like to hear that. 

With that said I do think there needs to be some system that rewards people for at least winning games. I dont see a place where a traditional ranked system exsists just because well there isn't interest then and there probably wouldn't be now. But it would be nice to get a currency, a level, or something that goes up with wins and down with loses through the season that is less harsh then traditional elo. Or maybe something more so along the lines of trials of osiris in destiny where players can compete to get wins in a row in a solo queue or something that is available at certian times. I think there is alot of interesting solutions out there that we could possibly see with time. 

[krackcommando]

4 minutes ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

There was a point where winning warzones was how you progressed through the dailies and weeklies but there was huge outcry about that. So every time there is an incentive to win backlash often gets it changed.

eh. requiring wins was a bridge too far, imo. and even at its most imbalanced, you still got somewhere toward the daily/weekly without winning. personally, I think the current 3:1 ratio is adequate. I think it's still too easy when you consider the GS and PVP Seasons stuff though b/c ppl who follow those things around like lemmings really will just bot queue or whatever. then again, I'm not sure 5:1 changes that either.

7 minutes ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

I think the reality is that SWTOR atm is just not that kind of game and if we are being really honest about it, it hasn't been in sometime. 

that's fair. game gave up on WoW level end game a very long time ago.

[steveerkcanjerk]

5 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

eh. requiring wins was a bridge too far, imo. and even at its most imbalanced, you still got somewhere toward the daily/weekly without winning. personally, I think the current 3:1 ratio is adequate. I think it's still too easy when you consider the GS and PVP Seasons stuff though b/c ppl who follow those things around like lemmings really will just bot queue or whatever. then again, I'm not sure 5:1 changes that either.

that's fair. game gave up on WoW level end game a very long time ago.

I agree on the missions front. But I don't think this makes the game any less desirable for me and alot of solid pvpers that play the game. Even WoW has been struggling at keeping a rated population. Yesterday at prime time I was a in a 30min bg queue before i got a pop for rated. Thats coming from a cross server queue top dog mmorpg. And even in their community you see discourse about 3v3 not being as popular as it was before. What I think would be cool is some sort of competitive system that is not like the old ones. MMO's are just not league of legends or dota. And they don't have to be, but what I think the genre could use is a shake up on aspirational pvp content which i do think the game could use and matter of fact almost every mmo could use a shakeup in. But it is nice to see more people getting involved in PvP. I have seen alot of players who never touched it actually enjoying it. And in terms of pops they are practically always going you literally see streamers on various servers at various times of day get pop after pop even for arena queue. But now that the some more people have been pulled in, some of those people might seek aspiring things to do. But only time will tell we are literally only on the 2nd season about to go into 3rd. 

[Headstylez]

Yeah I mean fair point about ranked alienating people.  I just don’t get why they went so far in the other direction.

I’d even be cool with something as simple as just tying cool rewards to the individual achievements the game used to have that were more difficult to achieve but never awarded anything meaningful.  Stuff like 10 solo kills in a warzone, 20 killing blows in a warzone, scoring the huttball all 6 times in a match, etc.  There could be a bunch of stuff there that could give people reason to try harder on their own and cool stuff to show off, yet it’s not like anyone would abuse you for not having them.

Right now, besides the season grind rewards, and valor grind titles, there’s just the Arena Legend and War Machine titles, which are yet just more grind rewards (win 800 arenas or WZs).

[steveerkcanjerk]

4 minutes ago, Headstylez said:

Yeah I mean fair point about ranked alienating people.  I just don’t get why they went so far in the other direction.

I’d even be cool with something as simple as just tying cool rewards to the individual achievements the game used to have that were more difficult to achieve but never awarded anything meaningful.  Stuff like 10 solo kills in a warzone, 20 killing blows in a warzone, scoring the huttball all 6 times in a match, etc.  There could be a bunch of stuff there that could give people reason to try harder on their own and cool stuff to show off, yet it’s not like anyone would abuse you for not having them.

Right now, besides the season grind rewards, and valor grind titles, there’s just the Arena Legend and War Machine titles, which are yet just more grind rewards (win 800 arenas or WZs).

I think it makes sense why they went the full opposite direction. Which is lets reward people who are pvping anyway. It is kind of nice that we do get rewards for doing pvp before we literally got nothing outside of valor stuff. And this is the first of many steps it feels like, they now have pillar they want to maintain and when you have limit resources you are gonna go were the players are not where they could be. When you step back and break it down

- We got rewards for participating in pvp 
- A new arena map
- Adjustments to medals and maps 
- A season system that is actually keeping a cadence. 

Granted this might not be all perfect for everyones tastes as this forum has shown. But PvP is definitely on the radar in a way it has basically never been in a very long time.  But to start it seems they are going with well lets make a system that benefits the most amount of players and honestly that is something they did. Matchmaking, premades etc. are all just levers that also got adjusted but maybe not where it needs to be but it is wild to see the map getting point changes. That I don't think has ever really happened. And is change gonna be super fast probably not, PvP is not the only group of players who have demands from the dev team so this position makes sense. 

[Headstylez]

16 minutes ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

I think it makes sense why they went the full opposite direction. Which is lets reward people who are pvping anyway. It is kind of nice that we do get rewards for doing pvp before we literally got nothing outside of valor stuff. And this is the first of many steps it feels like, they now have pillar they want to maintain and when you have limit resources you are gonna go were the players are not where they could be. When you step back and break it down

- We got rewards for participating in pvp 
- A new arena map
- Adjustments to medals and maps 
- A season system that is actually keeping a cadence. 

Granted this might not be all perfect for everyones tastes as this forum has shown. But PvP is definitely on the radar in a way it has basically never been in a very long time.  But to start it seems they are going with well lets make a system that benefits the most amount of players and honestly that is something they did. Matchmaking, premades etc. are all just levers that also got adjusted but maybe not where it needs to be but it is wild to see the map getting point changes. That I don't think has ever really happened. And is change gonna be super fast probably not, PvP is not the only group of players who have demands from the dev team so this position makes sense. 

Again, I don’t think it’s a zero sum game.  There are many ways they could have implemented the new system and accomplished greater PVP outreach, without alienating those who respond to skill-based incentives.  For example, they could have kept ranked in addition to the new PVP seasons.  But even if they didn’t want to keep ranked because it was too much of a resource drain, there are many simple ways to have skill-based rewards within an unranked system like those discussed earlier.

But there’s nothing in their messaging that indicates they intend to implement skill-based rewards and incentives within the current system.  If they intended to do it, they should have said so before most of the competitive community dipped out.  And like I’ve said elsewhere, you can bring in casuals, but once they see everything there is to be seen, and that there is only more grind and no next level of play, they will move on to something else.  

[steveerkcanjerk]

4 minutes ago, Headstylez said:

Again, I don’t think it’s a zero sum game.  There are many ways they could have implemented the new system and accomplished greater PVP outreach, without alienating those who respond to skill-based incentives.  For example, they could have kept ranked in addition to the new PVP seasons.  But even if they didn’t want to keep ranked because it was too much of a resource drain, there are many simple ways to have skill-based rewards within an unranked system like those discussed earlier.

But there’s nothing in their messaging that indicates they intend to implement skill-based rewards and incentives within the current system.  If they intended to do it, they should have said so before most of the competitive community dipped out.  And like I’ve said elsewhere, you can bring in casuals, but once they see everything there is to be seen, and that there is only more grind and no next level of play, they will move on to something else.  

I agree with you, i am just saying the shift makes sense. And ultimately we don't know how the backend of things look, maybe there was some issue that ranked brought up and there is alot that could have been going on internally. But I right there with you i think there is defiantly something they can do. 

[Bigfallenstar]

11 hours ago, krackcommando said:

not sure how that's what you got from his posts. 😄

he's asking for rated or for rewards that reflect skill as opposed to the current stuff which is pure grind (I mean...assuming you can get 8 medals a few times per week...which almost anyone can simply be Q'ing enough to camp a node on a winning team).

So it being too easy or a grind is the problem... They'd still complain about it even if the grind wasn't there. Making it harder isn't going to prove someone's skillful. Anyone can get a 10+ kills or reach a certain damage threshold and get those title respectively. (Unless you listen and believe those who say certain players are only doing 4-5k damage.) The Warmaster title, for example, doesn't means the same now like it did back in the old days of pvp.

[Headstylez]

20 hours ago, Bigfallenstar said:

So it being too easy or a grind is the problem... They'd still complain about it even if the grind wasn't there. Making it harder isn't going to prove someone's skillful. Anyone can get a 10+ kills or reach a certain damage threshold and get those title respectively. (Unless you listen and believe those who say certain players are only doing 4-5k damage.) The Warmaster title, for example, doesn't means the same now like it did back in the old days of pvp.

Lol ok dude

[septru]

On 5/18/2023 at 6:49 PM, Headstylez said:

Again, I don’t think it’s a zero sum game.  There are many ways they could have implemented the new system and accomplished greater PVP outreach, without alienating those who respond to skill-based incentives.  For example, they could have kept ranked in addition to the new PVP seasons.  But even if they didn’t want to keep ranked because it was too much of a resource drain, there are many simple ways to have skill-based rewards within an unranked system like those discussed earlier.

 

 

Literally this. 

 

The easiest way BioWare could do this is through win percentage. BioWare already tracks win rate. And many players have expressed interest in a path to earn more tokens. BioWare could easily create achievements that gives players extra tokens for achieving a certain win percentage. This would keep the grind-based season rewards for casuals while adding the bare minimum to reward skill. Like you @Headstylez said, it doesn't need to be an either-or reward system. It can be both. 

 

 

[ACHIEVEMENT]: Finish PvP Season 2 with a winrate between 10-19% to earn +1 PvP tokens. 

[ACHIEVEMENT]: Finish PvP Season 2 with a winrate between 20-29% to earn +2 PvP tokens. 

[ACHIEVEMENT]: Finish PvP Season 2 with a winrate between 30-39% to earn +3 PvP tokens. 

... all the way up to....

[ACHIEVEMENT]: Finish PvP Season 2 with a winrate between 90-99% to earn +9 PvP tokens. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by septru

[TrixxieTriss]

8 hours ago, septru said:

 

Literally this. 

 

The easiest way BioWare could do this is through win percentage. BioWare already tracks win rate. And many players have expressed interest in a path to earn more tokens. BioWare could easily create achievements that gives players extra tokens for achieving a certain win percentage. This would keep the grind-based season rewards for casuals while adding the bare minimum to reward skill. Like you @Headstylez said, it doesn't need to be an either-or reward system. It can be both. 

 

 

[ACHIEVEMENT]: Finish PvP Season 2 with a winrate between 10-19% to earn +1 PvP tokens. 

[ACHIEVEMENT]: Finish PvP Season 2 with a winrate between 20-29% to earn +2 PvP tokens. 

[ACHIEVEMENT]: Finish PvP Season 2 with a winrate between 30-39% to earn +3 PvP tokens. 

... all the way up to....

[ACHIEVEMENT]: Finish PvP Season 2 with a winrate between 90-99% to earn +9 PvP tokens. 

While I like that idea, I think there should be a seperate winrate for premading & the skill incentive should exclude premade winrates while ever solo players are forced to play against premades with no agency to opt out. 

[Samcuu]

16 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

While I like that idea, I think there should be a seperate winrate for premading & the skill incentive should exclude premade winrates while ever solo players are forced to play against premades with no agency to opt out. 

No it shouldn't. Ppl should be encouraged and incentivized to group up and play together. The skill level will grow by ppl helping their friends, which means the entire pvp community wins. 

[TrixxieTriss]

6 hours ago, Samcuu said:

No it shouldn't. Ppl should be encouraged and incentivized to group up and play together. The skill level will grow by ppl helping their friends, which means the entire pvp community wins. 

Why? Because that’s how you prefer to play? I have to say I’m so sick of people telling me how I should play this game because that’s how they play. I’m sure I’m not alone.

I don’t ever tell you or anyone else how to play. I respected we all play our own way. I don’t always agree with others views, but I also don’t want Bioware to force you to give up premading. Unlike you who wants to take away people’s agency in how they play.

[septru]

1 hour ago, TrixxieTriss said:

I have to say I’m so sick of people telling me how I should play this game because that’s how they play.

... unlike when you and others obsessively push for a premade only que that you have admitted would punish people for playing with their friends and would result in unacceptably long que times for premades. 😂

 

@Samcuu is right. People should be incentivized to group up. We've had this conversation before. Grouping up is the most effective way at improving in PvP. And at least from BioWare's perspective, finding friends keeps players engaged and returning to a dead game that otherwise has no new content. 

 

But I don't think any of that matters because I doubt you would see many pug v premade games in a large population. At least on SF, pug v premade games are already pretty rare. And when they do happen it's usually a premade of 2-3 people. If you brought back skill-based rewards, I think pug v premade games would become even more rare with the influx of longtime PvPers who would come back for a skill-based reward system.